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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: xs on Saturday 28 November 20 20:10 GMT (UK)
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Hello Everyone
I'm trying to find where John Postlethwaite was in 1871, if he was still alive and, if not, when he died. This is what I already know: Born 1814 Crossthwaite, Cumberland. Parents: William P and Ann Lingey (Lindsey? several different spellings) Wife, Mary Ann Roberts (m.1842) and 4 children. I have records up to 1861 where his last known occupation is a Turnkey in a House of Correction
Previous to this, he was a Private in the 2nd Life Guards in 1835 and in 1842 is recorded as being a Corporal (Paddington) He was discharged in 1843 for health reasons. Census in 1851 and 1861 shows him as working as an Officer in a House of Correction in Clerkenwell. Haven't found anything concrete after this. There is a death record for a John Postlethwaite in 1875 in Southwark, St Saviour but he is described as a gentleman by his daughter. Not sure about this. Thanks
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I think this must be the Southwark death you're mentioning:
John POSTLETHWAITE age 60 Mar qtr 1875 SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 118
So the age matches your John.
If the daughter is the informant, does her name match the children you've found?
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Could be the Southwark death?
Liverpool Mercury, 24 March 1875
Deaths
POSTLETHWAITE— March 21, in London, John, eldest son of the late Thomas Postlethwaite, of Scathwaite, near Ulverston.
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Could be the Southwark death?
Liverpool Mercury, 24 March 1875
Deaths
POSTLETHWAITE— March 21, in London, John, eldest son of the late Thomas Postlethwaite, of Scathwaite, near Ulverston.
Burial at City of London & Tower Hamlets - John Postlethwaite age 60 -abode Penton/Panton Place, Walworth-buried 24 March 1875
1871
RG10/614 Folio 48 Page 18 - 29 Carter Street, St Mary Newington
John Postlethwaite age 56 born Ulverstone, Lancashire
Mary 51 born ... Cumberland
Johns occupation ..... and commission agent. Could say Wire Copper ::)
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I am struggling a bit with this one. I can't find a marriage to a Mary Roberts or the registration of children. Where did you find them please. (not doubting you just trying to view for myself)
Crosthwaite seems to be both Cumberland and Westmorland
Did John marry a second time to Elizabeth. The 1861 I found which fits your description his wife if a much younger Elizabeth
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The 1842 marriage :). It took me a while to find it
June qtr 1842
POSELTHWAITE John
ROBERTS Mary Anne
Kensington 3 226
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Edwin Poselthwaite b 1851, Clerkenwell mmn Roberts
(Census has Elizabeth as wife and mother)
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Thanks everyone for replying. I don't think the Liverpool death record is for the John I'm looking for as his father was William and not Thomas The informant was Ann and there was a daughter of his called Mary Ann, so a possible BUT it's his occupation that doesn't tally. I'll check the 1871 Census you sent Rosie. Thanks
Mary Roberts and John got married on 8th May 1842 It has been mis transcribed as Possetthwaite!
The children are found in the parish records e.g Edwin John 1851 Clerkenwell
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No wonder I could not find it even with exact matches turned off!
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He signed his army papers as John Poselthwaite ;)
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Ah :)
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Do you have the four children in later censuses?
1851 -Clara, Mary Ann and Edward J
1861 -Edwin (Edward from 1851)
Who is the 4th?
The death reported in the Liverpool newspaper is the same death that you have isn’t it?
What is the address on that death certificate and is the daughter’s surname Postlethwaite or is she married?
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Edward was born in 1849 and died in 1849
Edwin John was born in 1851
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That's not the right John Prostlethwaite as his father's name was William and not Thomas
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Is that your John Postlethwaite in 1851, 1861 and 1871 though?
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1851 - John and Mary Ann Occ: Officer of House of Correction
1861 John and Elizabeth (and Edwin J) Occ: Prison Officer Still looking for a marriage between them
1871 is the Census Rosie suggested and I'm still checking that out as he's with Mary, again!
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1861 Census doesn't seem right No Mary but Elizabeth DOB and place of birth different
1871 Census - John and Mary fits in well with 1851 :( Any suggestions?
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There is this man in 1861 who I think may be the one from 1871
1861 324 / 29/2
10 New Western Street Bermondsey
John Postlethwaite widower 45 yrs Manager Wine and Beer Merchant b Ulverston
William Kirkby Postlethwaite 12 yrs b Liverpool
Added
Just realised John is with Elizabeth in 1861 so maybe this is just another one ::)
Perhaps he is the one who dies in 1875.
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There do seem to be quite a lot of John Postlethwaites and the one with Elizabeth was born in ulverston in Lancashire, not Cumberland which is separated from ulverston by Westmorland.
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1861 John and Elizabeth (and Edwin J) Occ: Prison Officer Still looking for a marriage between them
Could this this birth relevant?
Dec 1861 Clerkenwell 1b 528
Postlethwaite, William John
mother Page
Elizabeth was 29 in the 1861 census, born Gedney Hill, Lincolnshire
A baptism at Gedney Hill, 24 April 1831
Elizabeth Page (common name!)
Parents Stephen and Mary
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QL1K-SQNZ
She is there in the 1841 census, don't know about her after.
I thought maybe both Elizabeth and WJ had died in the mid 1860's and both buried Victoria Park Cemetery, but now I am not so sure, their ages were out (especially young WJ)
There is a William John Postlethwaite born London circa 1862 about in Cumberland later (as per 1891, 1911)
Married Sarah Boak in 1886, Whitehaven, by the looks of it
But in 1901 says he was born Maryport Cumberland!
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In 1851, Mary Roberts Postlethwaite is born London.
The 1871 which Rosie found is b Cumberland.
So did he have wife Mary Ann, then Elizabeth, then Mary
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Married Sarah Boak in 1886, Whitehaven, by the looks of it
More details
20 Nov 1886, Arlecdon, Cumberland
William John's father John Postlethwaite
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXKV-MQS
Birthplace Frizington! Do they mean residence?
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There is this man in 1861 who I think may be the one from 1871
1861 324 / 29/2
10 New Western Street Bermondsey
John Postlethwaite widower 45 yrs Manager Wine and Beer Merchant b Ulverston
William Kirkby Postlethwaite 12 yrs b Liverpool
Added
Just realised John is with Elizabeth in 1861 so maybe this is just another one ::)
Perhaps he is the one who dies in 1875.
I think this is the one Rosie found - his occupation looks like ‘Wine... Commission Agent’ - dreadful writing so he can be discounted for 1871.
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Another birth
Sep 1860 Clerkenwell 1b 520
Postlethwaite, Elizabeth Ann
mother Page
Death
Sep 1860 Clerkenwell 1b 297
Postlethwaite, Elizabeth Ann
age 0
Now she was buried at Victoria Park Cemetery
9 August 1861
Age 1 month
35 Warren St Pentonville
As per 1861 census!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3NH-WSCP-N
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Super finds, Jon. :)
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Thanks, heywood.
Still not sure about what happened next!
John
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Another birth
Sep 1860 Clerkenwell 1b 520
Postlethwaite, Elizabeth Ann
mother Page
Death
Sep 1860 Clerkenwell 1b 297
Postlethwaite, Elizabeth Ann
age 0
Now she was buried at Victoria Park Cemetery
9 August 1861
Age 1 month
35 Warren St Pentonville
As per 1861 census!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-P3NH-WSCP-N
The burial is 1860, Jon .
Another burial for Elizabeth Postlethwaite, 38 yrs , 16 September 1866 , 45 Red Lion Street, Clerkenwell in the same records.
There is also the child William John in 1865
It may be that these are all the same family but then you have the adult William John
:o confusing.
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Hi
Yes, sorry, Elizabeth Ann buried 1860! :-[
I am thinking now that maybe Elizabeth might well have died in 1866, and buried at Victoria Park. Age 38, up a bit.
William John Postlethwaite buried a year earlier, but it says he was 5 years old on the burial and death reg, when the Clerkenwell born one would not yet be 4. Also death registered in Holborn (close I know), address (whatever it is!) looks a bit unlikely to me as well.
There was a William John born in Shoreditch at the end of 1859, perhaps it was that one who died in 65?
John
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More details
20 Nov 1886, Arlecdon, Cumberland
William John's father John Postlethwaite
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXKV-MQS
Birthplace Frizington! Do they mean residence?
I see that William J Postlethwaite was a tinsmith.
So is this him in 1881, going under his mother's surname?
RG 11/ 5183/ 95 / 9
Chapel Row, Frizington
In the household of Thomas Rucastle
William J Page, boarder, unm, 19, tinsmith, London Middlesex
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Which leads in 1871 to
RG 10/ 5238/ 60/ 17
Union Workhouse, Cockermouth
Elizabeth Page, inmate, 38, domestic servant, Northamptonshire, Geddney Hill
William John Page, do, 9, scholar, London Clerkenwell,
Clara Elizabeth Page, 4, Northamptonshire, Eye
Elizabeth Clara Postlethwaite, 1st q 1866. Peterborough 3b, 244, mother's maiden surname Page.
Possible death for John Postlethwaite? 1st q 1869, Cockermouth 10b, 369, aged 57 (i.e. born c 1814)
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That’s another interesting find, Jen.
I would think this all needs writing down and sorting out :)
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Great finds Jen!
So Elizabeth didn't die in 1866! Does it mean that John Postlethwaite was heading homewards and died before 1871?
The daughter possibly may have married in Bootle in 1886.
John
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Possible death for John Postlethwaite? 1st q 1869, Cockermouth 10b, 369, aged 57 (i.e. born c 1814)
Possibly not right. A newspaper article indicates that this John Postlethwaite was a shoemaker of Maryport :-\
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Can't see anyone like that in 1851 and 1861.
In 1901 William John did say that he was born in Maryport.
Do we know John's trade when he joined the army?
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Husbandman according to his record in WO 116
Images 25, 26
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14728659
He may have been given a pension for a limited time? Pity!
There is a John Postelthwaite of the 2nd Life Guards indexed three times in the WO 23 registers on a pay site. They give the district the pension was paid from, and also will note a date of death (go up to mid 1870's)
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Marriage in Cockermouth in June qtr 1874
Richard Henry Chick
+
Elizabeth Page
They are in Irton with Santon in 1881
Elizabeth Chick born Gedney Hill
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-LQH1
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West Cumberland Times, 30 May 1874 (ocr text)
Marriages
on the 27th inst...
on same date, Mr. Richard H. Chick, porter, to Mrs. Elizabeth Page, widow, both of Cockermouth.
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Which leads in 1871 to
RG 10/ 5238/ 60/ 17
Union Workhouse, Cockermouth
Elizabeth Page, inmate, 38, domestic servant, Northamptonshire, Geddney Hill
William John Page, do, 9, scholar, London Clerkenwell,
Clara Elizabeth Page, 4, Northamptonshire, Eye
Elizabeth Clara Postlethwaite, 1st q 1866. Peterborough 3b, 244, mother;s maiden surname Page.
Possible death for John Postlethwaite? 1st q 1869, Cockermouth 10b, 369, aged 57 (i.e. born c 1814)
Clara Elizabeth's birthplace, Eye, is only about ten miles from her mother's birthplace, Gedney Hill.
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Thanks all of you for the super sleuth research! :D I just need to make some kind of tree to see where it all fits in re: John Postlethwaite where he was in 1871 and when/where he died
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Which leads in 1871 to
RG 10/ 5238/ 60/ 17
Union Workhouse, Cockermouth
Elizabeth Page, inmate, 38, domestic servant, Northamptonshire, Geddney Hill
William John Page, do, 9, scholar, London Clerkenwell,
Clara Elizabeth Page, 4, Northamptonshire, Eye
Elizabeth Clara Postlethwaite, 1st q 1866. Peterborough 3b, 244, mother;s maiden surname Page.
Possible death for John Postlethwaite? 1st q 1869, Cockermouth 10b, 369, aged 57 (i.e. born c 1814)
Just realised that I failed to state that Elizabeth is listed as ‘unmarried’ in 1871.
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If someone in the 19th century had 2 occupations would it be possible for both (separately) to be written on documents. The death certificate of John Postlethwaite records his occupation as Prison Officer which coincides with Census records etc However, in a newspaper article his death shows his occupation as a shoemaker. The birth of his daughter also shows him as being a master shoemaker. I'm sure they are both the same person as everything else checks out. Perhaps this was the norm?Any suggestions?
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Have you confirmed that the shoemaker and the prison officer were one and the same?
This thread is relevant
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=840927.msg7070853#msg7070853
reply #32.
Presumably you've bought the 1869 death certificate for the shoemaker?
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What are the exact details on the death certificate? Who was the informant?
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May I ask too about the details re the daughter’s birth?
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It would be much better if this enquiry was merged with your earlier thread, otherwise folks are going to start asking questions which have already been looked at in detail in your earlier thread.
I have asked a moderator to do the necessary :)
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These are the docs I have:
Cockermouth, Maryport
11th Jan 1869 2 Bells PLace, Nelson Street, Maryport
John Postlethwaite Male 57 years Formerley Warder in a prison Heart Disease No medical attendant
Helen Dempster Present at the Death 2 Bells Place Nelson Street Maryport
Maryport Advertiser 22 Jan 1869
Deaths
In Nelson Lane, on the 12th instant John Postlethwaite, Shoemaker, aged 57 years
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Thanks Jen
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Hello Heywood
Peterborough, Crowland
26th Feb 1866 Elizabeth Clara Father: John Postlethwaite Mother: Elizabeth Postlethwaite formerly Page Father's occupation: Shoemaker (Master)
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Well, there's no doubt that going by the death certificate you have found 'your' John Postlethwaite :D
On the other thread we looked to see if there was any record of him being a shoemaker, but nothing was found. You made no mention of it there?
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I didn't find that out until today. Has thrown everything into confusion! :o
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I've just read through the thread and you mentioned the newspaper report but I didn't have the death certificate at the time. I'm sure they're the same person, don't you think?
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If someone in the 19th century had 2 occupations would it be possible for both (separately) to be written on documents. The death certificate of John Postlethwaite records his occupation as Prison Officer which coincides with Census records etc However, in a newspaper article his death shows his occupation as a shoemaker. The birth of his daughter also shows him as being a master shoemaker. I'm sure they are both the same person as everything else checks out. Perhaps this was the norm?Any suggestions?
If he was really a master shoemaker and hadn't just exaggerated his occupation, he would have been apprenticed to a master shoemaker then worked as a journeyman shoemaker (i.e. for wage) for a while. If he wanted to progress to become a master shoemaker he would have to perfect his craft and produce a masterpiece for approval by members of the local shoemakers' (cordwainers') guild. Then he was entitled to call himself a master shoemaker, set up in business on his own or with partners if he wished, and train apprentices. He would also need to be literate and numerate in order to make and keep records. This would take, I guess, a minimum of 10 years. On the other hand, he might simply have learned how to make shoes, acquired funds to set himself up in a workshop and called himself a master shoemaker. Shoemaking was becoming mechanised in mid 19thC. England and changing from small and medium-sized workshops to factories. It's possible that John Posselthwaite's shoemaking prospects took a downturn as a result and he sought other employment. Shoemakers were not generally rich. Another possibility is that he had an industrial disease and had to give up shoemaking.
My shoemaker ancestor didn't progress beyond a journeyman shoemaker in mid 19thC. Preston, Lancashire. He was an active trades-unionist. A workmate, born in Westmorland, refused to join a strike; this led to a violent confrontation which resulted in a court case and prison sentences.
My ancestor's occupation on wedding and baptism registrations was cordwainer, i.e. he made quality shoes from high quality leather, made for people of quality.
There may have been different informants for the death registration and the newspaper notice. Was Helen Dempster a relative? Had she known John long? Dates of death are different. Information in the newspaper may have been sent by a relative who had known John for decades and who had more time to consider his life. I've written 2 newspaper obits; I included a previous profession in one. If a person had studied and trained for years for a profession it deserved mentioning in their death notice, even if decades had passed since they practised that occupation.
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Thank you for this information. Very interesting. I'm still thinking that the 2 John's are the same person. ( a day out on death report) Just need help to find more evidence, if possible.
Helen Dempster: The only person I can find who may be tie in with the death of John is Helen wife of William. Their first 3 children have all been born in Maryport, Cumberland. 1862, 1865 and 1867
Unfortunately, the family moved to Birkenhead in between 1861-1871 Censuses, (their 4th child was born in Birkenhead 1871) so I can't check the street address. However, it would make them living there in 1869. A too tenuous link?
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I've now moved on to the son of John Postlethwaite. Edwin John Postlethwaite. He was born in1851 in Clerkenwell, London. Parents John and Mary Ann. In 1861 he is living with his father and Elizabeth (Page). Records show he was in the Royal Navy but unfortunately deserted in 1872. I cannot find his whereabouts after this date. Help would be appreciated.
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I've now moved on to the son of John Postlethwaite. Edwin John Postlethwaite. He was born in1851 in Clerkenwell, London. Parents John and Mary Ann. In 1861 he is living with his father and Elizabeth (Page). Records show he was in the Royal Navy but unfortunately deserted in 1872. I cannot find his whereabouts after this date. Help would be appreciated.
A new thread has been started on this enquiry about Edwin here,
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=841305.msg7075685#msg7075685
so it's perhaps better if any replies to it are posted there?
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In case it's relevant to this thread (rather than what happened to EJ) :-\
RN Continuous Service Engagement Books
Edwin John Postlethwaite
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7924204
See with image viewer or download for free
Image 5
Consent given in 1866 for "my son" EJ to enter HM Navy by M A Palmer
Mary Ann Postelthwaite
Palmer
An address in Shadwell?
I may be misunderstanding things.
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In case it's relevant to this thread (rather than what happened to EJ) :-\
RN Continuous Service Engagement Books
Edwin John Postlethwaite
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7924204
See with image viewer or download for free
Image 5
Consent given in 1866 for "my son" EJ to enter HM Navy by M A Palmer
Mary Ann Postelthwaite
Palmer
An address in Shadwell?
I may be misunderstanding things.
I was extremely surprised that you received a result for the surname. as my search just for the surname with that exact spelling, then a minor change to the spelling, received no results whatsoever !!
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Rena that’s strange, because I did the same search as John and got the same result. I was able to download and view the document straight away.
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I've now moved on to the son of John Postlethwaite. Edwin John Postlethwaite. He was born in1851 in Clerkenwell, London. Parents John and Mary Ann. In 1861 he is living with his father and Elizabeth (Page). Records show he was in the Royal Navy but unfortunately deserted in 1872. I cannot find his whereabouts after this date. Help would be appreciated.
A new thread has been started on this enquiry about Edwin here,
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=841305.msg7075685#msg7075685
so it's perhaps better if any replies to it are posted there?
The new Edwin thread has been locked!
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Thanks John
Unfortunately, I can't download it because, although I've registered, I'm still waiting for an email verification from National Archives >:(
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Mary Ann Palmer/Postlethwaites address on the 1866 Edwin document is
something Cottage, New Crane, Shadwell.
New Crane was in St George in the East R.D.
https://alondoninheritance.com/the-thames/new-crane-stairs-anchor-hope-pub/
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Thanks Jen
I thought it could be 2, Carey's Cottage? Couldn't decipher New Crane. Great :)
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I thought it could be 2, Carey's Cottage?
I think you're right.
I can't yet see Mary Ann as either Postlethwaite or Palmer in 1861 or 1871. But at least now you know that she was still alive in 1866 so clearly John wasn't married to Elizabeth.
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Back on the trail...........
I can't find any marriages between a Postlethwaite and a Palmer. Maybe they just lived together like John and Elizabeth :-\