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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => West Lothian (Linlithgowshire) => Topic started by: Hwby on Monday 30 November 20 12:18 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I posted recently in the Ayrshire board about a Charlotte McPhail, and after making a lot of progress with her, I promptly got very stuck on her husband. I have their marriage register, I have some census information, and I have some poor law applications. Here's what I know:
Henry and Charlotte married November 1866, and listed his age as 24, giving him a birth year of 1841/42. His parents are listed as David Dickson, an agricultural labourer, and Elizabeth Clark, both dead. His usual residence is 'Wishaw station'.
Their daughter Jeanie was born April 1867. Charlotte had an illegitimate child before this marriage, Archibald, who later took Henry's name of Dickson. They had several more children, ending with George in 1886. Henry's job is described as an engine keeper and engine man throughout this time.
Most of their children are born in Cambusnethan, but their second son, David, was born in Blackburn, West Lothian, in 1869. They were, however, back in Lanarkshire for the birth of their next child James, born in Shotts in 1872. I know there was a strong mining presence in Blackburn, so they could have moved for Henry to find work.
There are then a number of poor law applications, both by him and by his wife. The first I can find was made by wife Charlotte in August 1877. She lives in Knownoble and Henry is "in jail for assault" and is recorded as being born in Old Monkland. I can't find anything about this jailing.
The next is May 1884, made by Henry, rendered fully disabled by "retention of urine". He lives at Muirhouse Pit, and was again born in Old Monkland. His job is engine keeper, and his age is given as 43, making him born 1840/41. His parents here are David Dickson and Betsy Bark (not Clark) - still both dead. It includes a note of a prior residence being "Knownoble Cleland, paid rent to Mr Dick & Donald McQueen O'Haetur [?], wrought to Mr Dick no 1 + 2 pits, refer to the books of Mr Dick". I don't understand what "wrought to" means here.
After that is another application by Charlotte in December 1889. Her address is 78 Berryhill Rows, Wishaw, and she's applying because "her husband Henry Dickson, miner 50 born Old Monkland, went away to look for work eight days ago - has not heard of him since". This would give him a birth year of 1839, but considering their length of time being married is given as 20, which is off, I think she could have just been rounding his age.
I have the family in the 1871, 1881, and 1891 censuses. The 1871 and 1891 census give him an estimated birth year of 1845, whereas 1881 gives it 1843. In 1871 they're living in Dalziel, in 1881 in Cambusnethan, and in 1891 in Cathcart, Renfrewshire. Charlotte dies in 1892, in her hometown of Campbelton, Argylshire. Her death is registered there, but the informant is her son David, who gives his address as Berryhill Rows, Wishaw.
He died in 1900 still living in Wishaw, though the register gives his birth year as ~1836. His younger children are living with siblings by the 1901 census. Here his mother is given as Agnes Clark (Thanks Rosinish for the help there).
I may have found him in the 1861 census - a 19 year old Henry Dickson, working as a collier, born in Lanarkshire circa 1842, a boarder with an Irish family in Stevenson, Ayrshire. I'm still not sure if his wife Charlotte left Campbelton with son Archibald, moved to Wishaw and met Henry there, or if Henry was in Campbelton and met her there, moving back to Wishaw to get married a few months before their daughter came along.
It may seem that I know a lot about him, but I can't actually find much in the way of concrete evidence about his life before he married Charlotte, and what happened to him after his wife died. I can find nothing about his parents beyond their names in his marriage register and poor law application, and they were dead by those events.
His children have sons called "Hendry" popping up, so I wonder if he actually went by Hendry rather than Henry, but I have no documents to back that up beyond grandsons' names.
So what I do know:
Born between 1840 and 1845, in Old Motherwell.
Parents are David Dickson and Elizabeth (Betsy) (possible Agnes) Clark (or possibly Bark), both dead by November 1866
Married to Charlotte McPhail in 1866, in Wishaw
He moved at least once to other parts of Scotland, West Lothian, possibly looking for work.
His wife's illegitimate son took his name, becoming Archibald Dickson, and he had a further eight children with Charlotte
He went to jail for assault in 1877
His wife pre-deceased him in 1892
Died in 1900, living in Wishaw
By this point I can't think of anything else to pursue. I find it strange I can find neither birth nor death for him, nor anything at all about his parents. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, I'd love to hear them!
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From your info. it looks as though Henry probably died 1897 - 1901
What about this...
DICKSON HENRY 64 - 1900 - 639/ 592 Dalziel
It's not unusual for ages to be wrong on death certs.
Annie
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From your info. it looks as though Henry probably died 1897 - 1901
What about this...
DICKSON HENRY 64 - 1900 - 639/ 592 Dalziel
It's not unusual for ages to be wrong on death certs.
Annie
Ahhh :o Yes, that's him! Interestingly enough, his mother is listed as Agnes, not Elizabeth, so something for me to explore. I'd written it off as it's ~7 years out for the birth, but I suppose son Hugh (the informant) may not have know exactly how old his dad was. Thanks for the hand!
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How are Henry' parents written on his marriage...
1. Betsy Dickson, maiden name Clark
or
2. Betsy Clark (no Dickson)
If no. 2 then Henry was illegitimate.
His mother being given as Agnes may have been a guess as his children wouldn't have known their g/mother as she was deceased prior to their births?
Annie
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I don't understand what "wrought to" means here.
I think it just means that he worked for him/them.
The 1871 and 1891 census give him an estimated birth year of 1845, whereas 1881 gives it 1843.
No, they don't. The original census never gives a year of birth, estimated or otherwise. This means that whatever census transcription you are using has 'calculated' his year of birth by subtracting the age he said he was from the year of the census. As the census is usually held about a quarter of the way through the year, this 'calculation' gives a wrong year three-quarters of the time.
His children have sons called "Hendry" popping up, so I wonder if he actually went by Hendry rather than Henry, but I have no documents to back that up beyond grandsons' names.
I wouldn't read anything into variants of spelling. When looking for a Henry on Scotland's People I would use H*n*r* to make sure of picking up all variations - for example Hendrie or Henrie or Hinrie as well as Henry or Hendry. If that doesn't work I'd also try Har* to see if he is recorded as Harry, Harrie etc.
Born between 1840 and 1845, in Old Motherwell.
Don't confuse Old Monkland with Motherwell. They are not the same. Motherwell is mostly in the parish of Dalziel, though it does spill over into neighbouring parishes. As far as I am aware no part of Motherwell is in the parish of Old Monkland.
his mother is listed as Agnes, not Elizabeth, so something for me to explore.
This is also quite common when a death is registered by a child or a more distant relative who never knew the person concerned. If there is a disparity between the name of the mother on a marriage certificate and the name on a death certificate, the former is almost certainly the correct name as someone getting married is more likely to know his mother's name than whoever registers his death.
Assuming that you have checked all the church registers on Scotland's People and found no record of his baptism as H*n*r* Di*on (to allow for Dixon though that spelling is rarer than Dickson in Scotland), check to see if he might have been illegitimate and baptised as H*n*r* Cl*rk*.
If that produces nothing, see
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=825881.0
https://www.oldscottish.com/fathers-found.html
https://www.scottishindexes.com/helppaternity.aspx
Ultimately you may have to accept that Henry Dickson is one of the many people whose baptism record, if it ever existed, has not survived.
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@Rosinish His mother is Elizabeth Dickson (ms Clark) on his marriage certificate, so seems he (at least claimed to be) legitimate. I suppose Hugh made an incorrect guess - why wouldn't someone just record it as unknown, hah!
@Forfarian Once again, thanks for the comprehensive answer... Not pulling up anything with the wildcards, so may have to accept I'm not going to find a birth record for Henry. Regarding Old Monkland/Motherwell confusion, I'm still terrible with towns and parishes and how everything relates - especially as people seem to change where exactly they were born depending on how they feel on a particular day filling out a particular document.
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@Rosinish His mother is Elizabeth Dickson (ms Clark) on his marriage certificate, so seems he (at least claimed to be) legitimate. I suppose Hugh made an incorrect guess - why wouldn't someone just record it as unknown, hah!
It wasn't unknow for people to be economical with the truth when they wanted to conceal illegitimacy. I would certainly not dismiss the idea just because he claimed his parents were married.
@Forfarian Once again, thanks for the comprehensive answer... Not pulling up anything with the wildcards, so may have to accept I'm not going to find a birth record for Henry. Regarding Old Monkland/Motherwell confusion, I'm still terrible with towns and parishes and how everything relates - especially as people seem to change where exactly they were born depending on how they feel on a particular day filling out a particular document.
Yes, that's always a pain. There is some guidance on this sort of thing in a couple of places
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct
https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/home
and you can look at old maps at https://maps.nls.uk/ for example
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400128 which shows the parish boundaries in colour
Lanarkshire offers a particular challenge because there are several parishes where the largest town, shown on modern maps, does not have the same name as the historic parish. These include for example Cambusnethan, where the largest town is Wishaw; Dalziel/Motherwell; Old Monkland/Coatbridge; New Monkland/Airdrie etc.
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Lanarkshire offers a particular challenge because there are several parishes where the largest town, shown on modern maps, does not have the same name as the historic parish. These include for example Cambusnethan, where the largest town is Wishaw; Dalziel/Motherwell; Old Monkland/Coatbridge; New Monkland/Airdrie etc.
That's exactly where my confusion comes from! All these places pop up at various times in my tree, which leads me to going through old OS maps and comparing to today to work out where they are. Cheers for the tips
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One other thing to do is see if you can find a copy of the old one-inch Ordnance Survey map from the 1950s or 1960s, sheet 61 'Falkirk and Lanark', which shows the parish boundaries (not Sheet 61 of the even older editions because the numbering was different). Or the first edition of the 1:50,000 landranger maps. Sheet 64 covers most of Lanarkshire. But don't get a Second Series Landranger sheet because the pesky so-and-sos took the parish boundaries off the Second and all subsequent editions. The first editions have a plain puce cover with no photograph so make sure not to but one with a photograph.
The sort of place you might find these old maps is in second-hand bookshops or online at www.abebooks.co.uk. See https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=22471535825&searchurl=bi%3D0%26ds%3D30%26bx%3Doff%26sortby%3D17%26tn%3Done-inch%26kn%3D61%26an%3Dordnance%2Bsurvey%26recentlyadded%3Dall&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title2
I use a highlighter to mark the parish boundaries then I can see at a glance which parish a particular place is in.
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One other thing to do is see if you can find a copy of the old one-inch Ordnance Survey map from the 1950s or 1960s, sheet 61 'Falkirk and Lanark', which shows the parish boundaries (not Sheet 61 of the even older editions because the numbering was different). Or the first edition of the 1:50,000 landranger maps. Sheet 64 covers most of Lanarkshire. But don't get a Second Series Landranger sheet because the pesky so-and-sos took the parish boundaries off the Second and all subsequent editions. The first editions have a plain puce cover with no photograph so make sure not to but one with a photograph.
The sort of place you might find these old maps is in second-hand bookshops or online at www.abebooks.co.uk. See https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=22471535825&searchurl=bi%3D0%26ds%3D30%26bx%3Doff%26sortby%3D17%26tn%3Done-inch%26kn%3D61%26an%3Dordnance%2Bsurvey%26recentlyadded%3Dall&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title2
I use a highlighter to mark the parish boundaries then I can see at a glance which parish a particular place is in.
Your knowledge is a boon to a newbie like me! Once lockdown lifts I'll have to get scouring
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What was the occupation of Henry's father, David?
Just in case there was a mother figure called Agnes (maybe a second wife?)...from 1851:
David Dixon 39 coal miner b. Ireland
Agnes Dixon 30 b.Pollerkshire, Renfrewshire
James Dixon 18 coal miner b. Nitshill, Renfrewshire
Hugh Dixon 15 coal miner b. Nitshill, Renfrewshire
Henry Dixon 13 coal miner b. Nitshill, Renfrewshire
Agnes Dixon 12 Months b. Greenend, Lanark
Address: 78 Greenend, Old Monkland
And in 1861:
David Dixon 45 coal miner b. Ireland
Agnes Dixon 39 b. Eastwood, Renfrewshire
Agnes Dixon 8 b. Bothwell, Lanarkshire
Mary Dixon 2 b. Bothwell, Lanarkshire
Patrick Markay 27 lodger Brusher In Coal Pit b. Ireland
Address: 9 Double Brick Row, Holytown, Bothwell
Monica
ADDED: There is this possible marriage/banns in 1849 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTT2-7L4
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This looks to be little Mary's details here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ41-CDZ Mother Agnes seems to also have the maiden name of Dickson it seems.
Monica
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Henry and Charlotte married November 1866, and listed his age as 24, giving him a birth year of 1841/42. His parents are listed as David Dickson, an agricultural labourer, and Elizabeth Clark, both dead. His usual residence is 'Wishaw station'.
Agricultural labourer is not helpful here!
Monica
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Marriage...
DIXON DAVID / AGNES DIXON FR5392 - 20/05/1849 - 622/190 517 Barony
Annie
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That would fit well Annie, don't you think? We have 12 month old Agnes in the listing for 1851.
Given the location of the 1861 entry, I would consider looking at this death entry:
David DICKSON
Mother's maiden name MARSHALL
1862
625/2 69
Holytown
No age showing on the SP index, but should show on the image (something that SP have been slowly correcting over the years).
Monica
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Looks good Monica but I'm wondering if David 1st married in Ireland to Elizabeth?
Annie
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Not sure really. Nothing showing in the OPRs that I can see except for the 1849 marriage or banns. Nothing for any of the children's births or christenings either pre 1855.
Cannot find the family at all in 1841 which would help us here.
Just adding Henry's family 1881 entry for background:
Henry Dickson 38 engine keeper b. Old Monkland
Charlotte Dickson 35 b. Campbeltown Argyll
Archibald Dickson 16
Jeanie Dickson 14
David Dickson 11
James Dickson 8
Hugh Dickson 6
Henry Dickson 4
Alexander Dickson 1
Address: 5 Muirhouses, Cambusnethan
Interesting to see a number of the Dickson names we saw in the earlier census entries: David, James, Hugh...and Henry of course.
Monica
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I believe there was an influx of Irish between 1841 & 1851 if I go by my own Irish ones arriving here?
Annie
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I think I have found details for James, eldest son in the censuses. He married an Alice Meehan and died 1877. He shows as born in Ireland...
Also found Hugh in the censuses. He shows as born in Nitshill Renfrewshire in 1891 (which fits with the early census for him).
In Hugh's marriage to Bethia Inglis Marshall in 1857, his parents are David Dickson, an agricultural labourer (yeah!) and Elizabeth Dickson - looks like he has forgotten mother's maiden name? Doubt his death reg will be better, but you never know www.findagrave.com/memorial/150494214/hugh-dickson
James' death reg shows parents as David Dickson, labourer, and mother Mary Dickson ::)
Just wish they would all be a little more consistent!
Monica
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The thing is, the g/children would only have known
Mary Agnes as Elizabeth was deceased before they were born.
Ahh, yes, now I'm getting them mixed up! ;D
No fun when it's too easy! :D
Annie
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I believe there was an influx of Irish between 1841 & 1851 if I go by my own Irish ones arriving here?
Yes, that's right.
I have read some where that in the year 1801 there were fewer Catholics in the City of Glasgow than there were in the Enzie (pronounced 'ing-ie' not 'en-zee'), between Fochabers and Buckie, partly in the parish of Rathven and partly in the parish of Bellie, where the population did not adopt Protestantism and where there is still a significant Catholic population today. The Statistical Account of Rathven (1794) says of the western part of the parish of Rathven, which includes part of the Enzie, that there were 300 Presbyterians, 72 Episcopalians and 630 Roman Catholics. The corresponding account of the parish of Bellie mentions a significant number of Catholics but does not specify how many there were.
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I haven't found a mention of Henry in jail yet...
On FindMyPast...
"Police Court. —Oa Monday before Provost Anderson Henry Dickson, engine-keeper, Knownoble. forfeited a pledge of 7s 61 for having, at the West Cross, assaulted al tbourer named Charles"
21 June 1879 - Wishaw Press - Wishaw, Lanarkshire, Scotland
I believe Berryhill Rows/Scott's Rows were the same place?
I have (in my tree) Duncan Callaghan b 1897 at 63 Scott's Rows, Berryhill, husband of my grandaunt.
Berryhill Rows can be seen on the map here on the left side above the Iron & Steel Works...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01q38/
Annie
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Wow, thanks everyone for cracking through with some of these! I'm going through and getting everything together now to start seeing how (if - I suppose one must always be cautious) it all fits in.
@Monica regarding the David Dickson 'agricultural labourer' in Henry's marriage certificate, David is in fact referred to as a miner/coal miner in Henry's application for relief and death cert. I'm beginning to wonder if I don't in fact have the wrong marriage certificate for Henry and Charlotte, though every detail other than Henry's parents (and his age, though that bounces around throughout the documents) matches.
@Rosinish - Wow, seems Henry was a bit of a lout! Thanks for finding that. I'm fairly certain Scott's Rows were at Berryhill Rows - I'm familiar with the latter, it's where a number of my direct ancestors lived, and they stayed in the immediate area until the sixties.
EDIT: Though I'm muddling how to reconcile the +/- 7 years in Henry's birth year in various sources, and his being consistently referred to as having been born in Old Monkland, rather than Ireland. Possibly two different people, but so many details match it's a strong coincidence, and so far I've not found anything that would prove they're two separate people. Did Henry just decide to reinvent himself after getting married...?
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I do think you have Henry's family here. The confusion really lies on the name of his mother being inconsistent. I think you have enough clues from his brothers that mother was Elizabeth (James called his second born daughter Elizabeth) and likely Clark. You then have father David's second marriage in 1849. This has further confused descendants who were not clear/didn't remember Elizabeth's name.
Henry and brothers were all coal miners in their early years. Hugh and Henry later became engine keepers.
Son Hugh reported his father David's death in 1862. He gave his address as Wishaw Station. This is the address that Henry gave for his marriage?
Who were the witnesses at Henry's wedding?
Monica
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...and his being consistently referred to as having been born in Old Monkland, rather than Ireland.
Henry shows always as born in Old Monkland from the refs I saw for him. Is there a reference to him being born in Ireland?
From the records I was, only father David and eldest brother James were showing as born in Ireland.
Monica
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...and his being consistently referred to as having been born in Old Monkland, rather than Ireland.
Henry shows always as born in Old Monkland from the refs I saw for him. Is there a reference to him being born in Ireland?
From the records I was, only father David and eldest brother James were showing as born in Ireland.
Monica
Sorry, I meant the Nitshill, Renfrewshire in the 1851 census, not Ireland (it's been a long day!). This census also makes him a few years older than he said he was when he got married.
The witnesses at the marriage were a William More and Isabella Smith - I've not come across either of those names elsewhere on the tree
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The family's 1841 census entry would help so much now! I haven't been able to find it so far.
The witnesses' names are not obviously connected. Nor were the witnesses to the marriage of Hugh. James married in 1852.
Monica
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I'm sure every family historian on this site has come across more than 1 instance where there's conflicting info.
From what you have so far, there's nothing looking suspect.
It's a case of being satisfied yourself with evidence & circumstantial evidence.
To corroborate it all, sit down & go through everything, names/dates/ages/addresses/occupations, everything, write all those things down or use an excel spreadsheet (my favourite) to list everything & you'll soon have everything matching up.
Ages vary all the time as people were not too literate & didn't really matter back then.
The main thing (for me) doing genealogy, is to scrutinise everything, take every piece of info. from every doc.
Sponsors/Witnesses to baptisms/marriages aren't always relatives but it's what we want to see when searching.
My parents witnesses were not related to them & ditto for myself, simply good friends & their partners.
What looks to be David' DC is waiting to be viewed & it might be Henry who was the informant? :D
Annie
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What looks to be David' DC is waiting to be viewed & it might be Henry who was the informant? :D
Annie
It was Hugh, Annie ;D As mentioned earlier, he gave his address as informant as Wishaw Station. This is the same as Henry gave when marrying Charlotte in 1866. Both Hugh and Henry were engine keepers by this time I think? Hugh certainly was by 1862.
Monica
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Checked that death cert, David's age is given as 47 at death, so squares with the 1861 census - good find, Monica! Parents are Hugh Dickson and Jane Dickson, ms Marshall. I'm still having no luck finding David and family in 1841, either, but I'm already much further ahead than I thought I'd get...
@Rosinish I love spreadsheets, and use them at the flimsiest excuse ;D
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Nice wee xmas cracker to me, evidence is there, no need to fret Hwby, is there Monica! ;D
Annie
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Bit of an update regarding David's wife
There are several names popping up. There's the Elizabeth/Betsy Clark Henry gives as his mother in his poor relief application and marriage register, which is the only mention I find of her. There's Agnes Dickson, who appears in the censuses, but she can't be mother to at least some of the children - she'd have been between 12 and 17 when Henry and his brothers James and Hugh were born. The 1851 census shows a 13 year old Henry and then a 12 month old daughter called Agnes, so I'm thinking Agnes was step-mother to the three boys and David had two more children with her (Agnes in 1850 and Mary in 1859).
James's death certificate gives his mother as "Mary Dickson", ms Dickson, informant was his son James
Hugh's death certificate rather unhelpfully doesn't know what his parents' names are, his son William leaving it blank beyond the surname of Dickson. His wedding register gives his mother as Elizabeth Dixon, ms Dixon
Henry's death certificate gives the mother as Agnes Dickson, ms Clark
James' marriage is old parish records with no parents recorded
David's job changes between agricultural labourer and miner between records, so it does give me pause, but I suppose he could have been a labourer in Ireland, and came to Scotland to work in the mines, as I know many people did.
Regarding the boys' mother, it seems likely that the mother was Elizabeth, possibly Clark, who died young and David remarried to Agnes, maiden name also Dickson, who became stepmother and gave birth to two half-sisters. The grandchildren didn't know the details of their paternal grandparents - as evidenced by Hugh's son not knowing their names, Henry's son mashing together Agnes with the surname Clark, and James' son giving the name as Mary Dickson.
Unfortunately I've not been able to find birth records for Henry, Hugh, or James, nor a death certificate for Elizabeth (if she exists). David and Agnes's marriage is an old parish record, with no detail as to whether he's a widower or not. Their marriage isn't until 1849, so I wonder if David, first wife, and three sons aren't actually living in Ireland in 1841, hence not finding them on the census.
Thanks for the help, everyone. While there's still some questions, I have more details than I thought I'd get, and have a theory I'm pretty happy with :) :)
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Good summary there :)
Maybe leave it for a while and come back to it all. Info comes along a lot of the time that opens other doors. You have at least David's parents from his death....assuming James knew the correct details when he reported his father's death!
Monica
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Good summary there :)
Maybe leave it for a while and come back to it all. Info comes along a lot of the time that opens other doors. You have at least David's parents from his death....assuming James knew the correct details when he reported his father's death!
Monica
Cheers, and thanks for all your help - both with my Henry Dickson and his wife Charlotte in my other thread. You're right, probably best to come back to it later on down the line... I have plenty of other ancestors and they're not going anywhere ;D