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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: Steve C on Monday 30 November 20 19:25 GMT (UK)
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I have been trying to locate a death date and burial for my Great Grandfather John Hall for quite some time but unfortunately without success so far.
I have just obtained the Will for his second wife Sarah E Hall who passed away in 1934. It was quite a while ago but with the kind help of some of the forumers I did locate a burial for her at Belgrave cemetery but there was no mention of her husband John.
The Will says let it be known, followed by her address at the time, then in brackets wife of John Hall. My query is, Does this mean John Hall was still alive at the time?
There was no mention of him in the Will, so if he was alive this narrows the options available to me in a death search. If he was not alive at the time would the Will say something like wife of the Late John Hall?
Hope the query makes sense.
Many thanks in anticipation
Steve ;)
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Sounds to me like he was still alive. Have you tried searching for him in 1937 register?
Or can you try electoral registers for the time? Leciestershire library would probably have these - maybe contact them to do a search for you.
Diddy
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sorry 1939 register.
when was he born?
Diddy
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Hiya Diddy,
Many thanks for your replies, I do hope you are keeping well :)
I have checked the 1939 Register but unfortunately none of the John Hall`s who are listed are names or addresses that I recognise which makes me think he passed away prior to 1939.
With this in mind I did manage to find one more candidate and that was John Hall aged 72 who died March quarter of 1935 listed as 7a 202 in Barrow Upon Soar. The reason I mention this is because I do recall some of my Hall ancestors originated from Barrow Upon Soar.
BTW my John Hall was born 1862.
Many thanks
Steve ;)
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Had you ruled out this June quarter 1935 one?
Hall John 73 Leicester 7a 206
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Thank you very much Mckha489 for your reply.
Tried that one and ruled him out. Please see this thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=840027.msg7061043#msg7061043
Steve ;)
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Hi Steve, I'm doing really well thanks after a late June Kidney transplant. raring to go... and cant ;D
what was sarahs address at death please?
Diddy
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Hi, you can possibly dismiss the 1935 one - the Barrow on Soar registers online has:
Blank Hall 18/3/1935 no age still born child of Archilbald & Marie Hall no Johns for 1935
if you were considering Barrow there is a:
John Hall died 31/12/1929 age 67 (1862) Framework Knitter grave B190
Diddy
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Sorry Steve, just looked at your old post and you already have that one. However not the fact he was buried in Barrow...
if i could get out I would take a pic of the grave but I am classed as extremely vulnarable - hardly been out since feb. very boring - thats why a love a puzzle. :D
Diddy
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Hi Diddy,
Thanks very much for coming back with your two replies.
Wow kidney transplant.......that must have been very worrying considering the circumstances we all find ourselves in.......really pleased to hear you are raring to go again. Thanks very much for the offer of a photo, perhaps I could take you up on that offer at a later date. ;)
Look after yourself and take care.
Regards Steve :)
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Just found this Diddy, obviously cant say for sure but I believe this is not the John Hall I am looking for, dont recognise the address or the names :(
In your first reply you mention you think he is still alive in 1934, I am thinking the same otherwise the Will would have surely said the Late John Hall :-\
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"The Will says let it be known, followed by her address at the time, then in brackets wife of John Hall. My query is, Does this mean John Hall was still alive at the time?"
When was the will dated?
It appears to me John is in an unknown location i.e. had they separated/he'd disappeared?
This may be him after all if the above is true as she wouldn't know he was already deceased & age fits i.e. dependent on his occ?...
"John Hall died 31/12/1929 age 67 (1862) Framework Knitter grave B190"
What was his occupation on marriage & when did they marry?
Annie
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Hi Annie,
His second marriage was to Sarah Elizabeth in 1894, he was listed as Frame Work Knitter.
The last definite mention of John was the 1911 Census, he was listed as FWK aged 48 and living with his daughter and son in law in Brandon Street, Leicester.
Thats as far as I`ve got. The rest is all speculation. I researched FreeBMD looking for all John Hall deaths in Leicester, using the ages listed I have carried out the reverse calculation to see which candidates were born nearest to 1862. These candidates have now been ruled out.
I tried to trace him through the daughter he was living with in 1911, sadly she passed away in 1920, the only mention of his son in law from 1911 is on the 1939 register were he is living with his mother in Noble Street.
I did find a John Hall living at 2a Lee Street listed on the electoral register in 1921, this appears to be a Central Home for men as there were 30 other individuals living as this address.
I am willing to purchase a death certificate but I need to be reasonably sure I`ve got the right John Hall.
Hope this helps explain where I`ve got to and my thought process
Many thanks Steve ;)
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Had a look at the 1929 info on line, John as widower and Hannah Darby his lawful daughter. Hannah's address was 33 Church Street.
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Hannah hall married John darby Sept 1918 barrow on soar
Diddy
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She died 27 Jan 1940 at Notts hospital, buried barrow. Wife of John. Think he's the John Thomas who died 1943
All in barrow on soar registers online. Just Google.
Diddy
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Sarah Elizabeth's probate was granted to William HALL hosiery counterman & William THORPE.
Who was William in relation to Sarah and John? Son?
Who was William THORPE? I see he is at the address of her death in 1939.
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Had a look at the 1929 info on line, John as widower and Hannah Darby his lawful daughter. Hannah's address was 33 Church Street.
Thanks very much willsy, yep saw that one too but I dont know who Hannah is :(, there is no one with the name Hannah in my tree.
Hannah hall married John darby Sept 1918 barrow on soar
Diddy
She died 27 Jan 1940 at Notts hospital, buried barrow. Wife of John. Think he's the John Thomas who died 1943
All in barrow on soar registers online. Just Google.
Diddy
Thanks very much Diddy for your two replies but my John Hall was just John Hall, not John Thomas Hall :(
Steve :)
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Sarah Elizabeth's probate was granted to William HALL hosiery counterman & William THORPE.
Who was William in relation to Sarah and John? Son?
Who was William THORPE? I see he is at the address of her death in 1939.
Thank you very much for your reply Mckha489
William Hall was Sarah and John`s youngest son, William Thorpe was their son in law ( he married Sarah and John`s youngest daughter Ethel. Sarah was living with William and Ethel Thorpe when she passed away 27.02.1934 )
Hope this helps
Steve :)
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OK, so he must still have been alive then as surely one of them would have known if not. The probate summary clearly says wife of, not widow of.
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Did John have a daughter named Sarah?
Sarah & Hannah are interchangeable.
Annie
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Unfortunately no children named Sarah.
Think I might have to wait until the 1921 Census comes out. Might find out a few more answers then. :-\
Steve ;)
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Not sure if you missed it but I enquired when the will was written?
The way it's worded isn't the norm for a couple still together in my view.
I'm of the belief they were separated & his whereabouts unknown or whether he was alive unknown as if he'd disappeared?
Annie
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Hi Annie,
Sorry my fault, got carried away with the details of my reply timed at 19.27 yesterday ::)
The will was written 17.01.1934.
Steve ;)
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I'm wondering if you've checked GRO for a daughter you might not have known about as all the info. does point to the 1929 death?
Same age/yr of birth, same occ. 1894, 1911, the 1929 death & same area known...
"His second marriage was to Sarah Elizabeth in 1894, he was listed as Frame Work Knitter"
"The last definite mention of John was the 1911 Census, he was listed as FWK aged 48"
"John Hall died 31/12/1929 age 67 (1862) Framework Knitter grave B190" Barrow on Soar
"BTW my John Hall was born 1862"
"Had a look at the 1929 info on line, John as widower and Hannah Darby his lawful daughter"
Annie
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Do you have the details of Johns first marriage? were there children?
Just found couple of births for Hannah Hall Barrow. going to check on BoS registers see if father/mother given.
Diddy
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Ok
1. from Freebmd sept 1878 BoS not on Barrow registers - suggests registration district but not Barrow itself;
2. Hannah Hall b.23/11/1890 d/o John Hall, FWK & Elizabeth. BoS.
Diddy
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Possible marriages (may be jumping ahead here if you have Johns first marriage - could be completely wrong!)
1. John Hall = Elizabeth Wakeling 25/12/1889 Barrow
John FWK father John FWK. John age 27 (1862) Elizabeth age 20 (1869)
2. John Hall = Elizabeth Ratcliffe mar 1890 Barrow not on Registers
Diddy
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The free index to 1911 has John Hall the framework knitter and his daughter Hannah in Barrow upon Soar.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X754-VF9
Likely to be the chap who died in 1929.
Whilst the one being sought is with his daughter in Leicester in 1911.
The 1935 Barrow RD death could be the 48 year old John Hall, gas stoker, in Quorndon with a wife Elizabeth in 1911
Free index
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X754-BV6
Elizabeth Hall died 27 Nov 1945. Probate for her, widow of Winkhill Road, Leicester Road, Quorn.
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=hall&yearOfDeath=1946&page=7#calendar
I think a look up in the 39 Register for Elizabeth might help bolster that idea (but we can't do that on here)
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Tried that one and ruled him out. Please see this thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=840027.msg7061043#msg7061043
The thread says there is a probate record for a John Hall or Walter Smith.
Whereas the actual probate calendar says Walter Hall or John Smith
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=hall&yearOfDeath=1935&page=14#calendar
Death of a Walter Hall age 51 in June 1935, Leicester.
Different from the John Hall age 73 death!
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Re that Leicester death
There's a burial for John Hall in Gilroes:
buried 10 April 1935 age 73, of 63, Buckminster Road.
also in the same plot are Mary Eliza Hall, d 1935 age 66, of 9 Richard St, and John William Hall age 61, of Buckminster Rd; plus George Weston (1910, age 52) and Ernest Frederick Wright(1923, age 46).
Who is John William Hall age 61? Not sure at the moment
I think Mary Eliza (Hall) could have been the wife of George Weston who died in 1910
Here they are in 1901, George Weston is 42, Mary E. is 32
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSH9-ZM6
Free index to 1911 has Mary Eliza Weston as a widow, 42, with son Frederick
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X75Z-723
Marriage
Dec 1934 Leicester 7a 643
Hall, John - spouse Weston
Weston, Mary E. - spouse Hall
Sarah Elizabeth died in 1934. Wife of John Hall.
We presume John Hall was alive at that time. He would then be a widower and could remarry
I'm getting carried away perhaps!
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Wow.............thank you very much indeed diddy and jonw65 for your replies and your continued interest in helping me find John Hall. ;) :) ;)
I do not possess a copy marraige certificate for Johns first marriage but I have John Hall marrying Mary Ann Mann in 1881. In 1891 they were living in Dorset Street with their first child John W Hall. They had 5 more children Elizabeth Lily, Arthur, Emily, Eliza and George Harry who was born 1893 the same year Mary Ann passed away.
Hope this helps.
Many thanks Steve ;)
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OK, that could explain John William
HALL, JOHN WILLIAM
Mother's Maiden Surname: MANN
GRO Reference: 1883 S Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 07A Page 218
Possibly the Weston marriage
March 1888
Leicester 7a 328
Weston, George
Wright, Mary Eliza
Followed by son Frederick's birth in Billesdon (mother Wright) soon after!
Anyone looking for those two on the last census on one site needs to search for Neston!
So Ernest Frederick Wright in that grave is likely to be a relation of Mary Eliza.
Her death then must have been just before that of John
March 1935 Leicester 7a 227
Hall, Mary Eliza
age 66
So if(!) this is what happened, John and Mary Eliza would have been married literally no more than a few months before their deaths.
They might have been living together prior to that of course. Different addresses given according to the cemetery transcript, one of them could have died away from their usual address perhaps, or moved.
John
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Well that helps eliminate some of those we found anyway !
Diddy ;D
Ps having fun after boring few months thank you.
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OK, that could explain John William
HALL, JOHN WILLIAM
Mother's Maiden Surname: MANN
GRO Reference: 1883 S Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 07A Page 218
Possibly the Weston marriage
March 1888
Leicester 7a 328
Weston, George
Wright, Mary Eliza
Followed by son Frederick's birth in Billesdon (mother Wright) soon after!
Anyone looking for those two on the last census on one site needs to search for Neston!
So Ernest Frederick Wright in that grave is likely to be a relation of Mary Eliza.
Her death then must have been just before that of John
March 1935 Leicester 7a 227
Hall, Mary Eliza
age 66
So if(!) this is what happened, John and Mary Eliza would have been married literally no more than a few months before their deaths.
They might have been living together prior to that of course. Different addresses given according to the cemetery transcript, one of them could have died away from their usual address perhaps, or moved.
John
Thanks very much John for your reply, great information to work with :)
Well that helps eliminate some of those we found anyway !
Diddy ;D
Ps having fun after boring few months thank you.
Great to hear you are having some fun Diddy, please feel free to cary on :D Mike would have been proud of you ;)
Steve
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Mike would surely have cracked this,
Lovely man, turned up out of the blue at a Meccano show we were putting on in Quorn one year and said
Hi, are you Diddy From RC?
Diddy :)
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Sadly never had the pleasure of meeting him but had several laughs and lots of banter with him during the course of Rootschat posts..................I do miss him and the "Greetings Steve" :(
I have been very fortunate with a lot of my Rootschat posts, some lovely people have put in a lot of time helping me with my tree.
Anyway keep in touch if you get chance, look after yourself in the meantime. ;)
Kind regards Steve
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Might be her?
All the free ocr text will give us
Leicester Evening Mail, 9 January 1935
MRS. MARY HALL of Richard-street, Leicester, who collapsed in a shop doorway in Humberstone-road yesterday and died shortly afterwards. Her identity was not established until 1 hours later.
Presume that is Humberstone, ocr says Huntberstone. 1 hours?
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Final elimination of the 1935 Barrow death!
Leicester Evening Mail, 29 January 1935
Quorn Funeral.—The funeral took place at Mountsorrel cemetery, of Mr. John Hall, who died at his home, Leicester-road, Quorn, at the age of 72.
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Have we got Johns exact birth date?
Diddy
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Still think electoral registers could help.
Diddy
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Might be her?
All the free ocr text will give us
Leicester Evening Mail, 9 January 1935
MRS. MARY HALL of Richard-street, Leicester, who collapsed in a shop doorway in Humberstone-road yesterday and died shortly afterwards. Her identity was not established until 1 hours later.
Presume that is Humberstone, ocr says Huntberstone. 1 hours?
Thanks very much John for your reply and the details you enclose but Mary Ann Hall (Johns first wife) died 13.02.1893. Sarah Elizabeth Hall (Johns second wife) died 27.02.1934.
Have we got Johns exact birth date?
Diddy
Still think electoral registers could help.
Diddy
Sorry Diddy I dont have actual date of birth for John but a baptism record is dated 09.11.1862 at All Saints in Leicester.
I have checked online electoral registers from 1921 to 1931 for John Hall in Leicester but cant go any further as 1931 is the last year listed :(
Steve ;)
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I thought it might be his third wife. Hoping there was one! The Mary Eliza Hall who was buried in 1935 age 66.
There is a Mary Ann Hall death in Leicester in the same quarter, but the burial transcript has Mary Eliza as living in Richard Street. So the chances are that the newspaper report is about that one.
John
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Thank you. Found a Dec 1862 leicester one on freebmd so thought that was him.
Diddy :)
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I thought it might be his third wife. Hoping there was one! The Mary Eliza Hall who was buried in 1935 age 66.
There is a Mary Ann Hall death in Leicester in the same quarter, but the burial transcript has Mary Eliza as living in Richard Street. So the chances are that the newspaper report is about that one.
John
No worries John, thank you very much for all you have done so far, very much appreciated. :)
Thank you. Found a Dec 1862 leicester one on freebmd so thought that was him.
Diddy :)
We will get a break through soon I am sure Diddy :)
Steve ;)
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Hi
One more thing!
Looking for John Halls in Leicester in the free index to the 1939 Register on one of the pay sites, brings up
John W Hall, born 1883.
Lilian A Hall is also on this record
Address 63 Buckminster Road, Leicester
So that could be the John William Hall of Buckminster Road in the grave at Gilroes who died age 61
The address is an exact match for the John Hall buried 10 April 1935, age 73
John
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Hi John,
Thanks for coming back again with the latest details. :)
As far as I can make out there appears to be two John Hall`s in Leicester at the same time both born 1862 and both marrying a Mary A.
My John Hall is living with Mary A at Dorset Street in 1891. The other John Hall is living with another Mary A in Talbot Lane in 1891.
One thing that has got me wondering though, supposing my John Hall is the John Hall living at 2a Lee Street circa 1921, this abode appears to be a Central Home For Men. If he had fallen on hard times and passed away there, would he have had a paupers style funeral and would there have been a record :-\
Not burning any midnight oil tonight, will have another look tomorrow :)
Steve
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1911c I looked at had a John Hall in the Leicester workhouse Swain st so think that will be the same one as in 1921. Natural progression to Home for men?
Diddy
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Hiya Diddy,
Sincere apologies for not getting back sooner but our central heating packed up a couple of days ago and have been trying to sort the issue, not a good time for it to stop working right in the middle of some snow ::)
Thanks very much for your reply, like you say natural progession.
You have been very kind with your time and researching on my behalf.
All the best and take care.
Steve ;)