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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: Pheno on Wednesday 02 December 20 11:18 GMT (UK)
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Hoping for some help in sorting this 1861 census entry out please.
RG9: Piece 598: Folio 134: Page 4
The family is at 13 Bread Street, Brighton and consists of:
William Hornsbury Mar 52 Fisherman Sussex, Brighton Head
Mary Hornsbury Mar 54 Sussex Brighton Wife
Caroline Reeves Unm 20 Ironer Sussex, Brighton Dau in law
John Reeves Unm 17 Fish Hawker Sussex, Brighton Son in law
Sarah Hornsbury Unm 15 Scholar Sussex, Brighton Daughter
Initially, I took this to infer that William Hornsbury had married a Mary Reeves who already had 2 children Caroline and John and then he and Mary had a daughter Sarah so expected the marriage to be 1843-1847. However I can't find any such marriage.
I think this William Hornsbury (from experience there are also these variations: Hornsberry, Hollingsbury/berry, Horn(s)by, Hollonbury) might be my William Winterman Hollansbury bp.3 Dec 1809 St. Nicholas, Brighton.
Ancestry are also offering me the hint that Mary Hornsbury was formerly Mary Ship. There is a baptism of a Mary Johnson Ship, illeg dau of Amy Ship at St. Nicholas, Brighton on 18 Dec 1812, although that would mean she should be younger than William rather than older.
However, there doesn't seem to be a marriage of a Ship to a Reeves to account for the two children and I can't find their registrations at the gro site either, nor any appropriate baptisms.
Neither can I find any info on Sarah Hornsbury, although that is possibly due to another name variation that I haven't come across yet.
All these people seem to be mysteries and if I could just sort out who they are I could determine if they fit into my family or not hopefully.
Any assistance to do this much appreciated.
Thanks, Pheno
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Hi
Possible marriage?
June 1852 Brighton 2b 287
Hollingbery, William
Reeves, Mary
+ 2 others
Sarah's marriage in 1869, father William Hornsbury, Fisherman
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6F9S-TZS
John's marriage in 1867? Father William Reeves, Fisherman
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DWG3-YWZ
A widowed Mary Reeves with children including Caroline and John in Brighton in 1851 :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGJJ-GWD
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1871, Brighton
Piece 1084 folio 67 page 3
William Hollingbury Head 62 Fisherman, born Sussex Brighton
Mary Hollingbury Wife 67 Nurse Brighton
Mary Reeves Grnd Daur 12 Brighton
William Smith Grnd Son 3 India
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFD4-LF6
Same house, John Reeves, 36, Fish Hawker, and family
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Oh jonw65 you always come to the rescue!
Think I just got overwhelmed with looking and didn't spot any of those entries. Also fell into the classic trap of not looking for marriage after birth of child Sarah. I've been doing this long enough by now that I should have avoided that.
However, what you have found all fits together nicely, now I just need to ascertain if Mary ? who had children Caroline and John with William Reeves, was, in fact Mary Ship. I will carry on looking although her age doesn't really fit with the Mary Ship baptism in 1812 unless she wasn't an infant.
Thanks very much, Pheno
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Hi
Perhaps Mary Ship might be William's first wife?
Marriage 9 May 1831, Brighton
William Hollingsbury
+
Mary Ship
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DR6Q-TTT
Baptism of a son William, 30 March 1834, Brighton
Father William a Fisherman
BT
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-XCQ7-D14
Marriage of that William? 3 Dec 1857, Brighton
William Hollingsbury, 23, Mariner, father William Hollingsbury, Fisherman
+
Lydia Pitcher, 21
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DR8J-W6
I am not finding Sarah!
John
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Well that's a scenario I hadn't envisaged.
It's so difficult tracking these people because of all the name variations. Some of them are too obscure to even be picked up by the name algorithms within the search sites.
Am sure your conjectures are correct so will be able to tidy up this branch shortly.
Thanks, Pheno
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Might be, hopefully!
I can see there is a William Hollingsbery, b. 1810, Sussex, possibly Brighton, in the Merchant Seamen database on a pay site.
Could that be him?
Indexed here as well
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC3S-W6R
Good luck
John
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Have you tried the GRO for Caroline Reeves Birth Reg for Mothers maiden name?
I must say I cant match it up.
Bapt;
Caroline REVES
Birth Date: 3 Aug 1840
Baptism Date: 16 Jun 1844 St. Nicholas, Brighton to WILLIAM/MARY Reves
Bapt same day under Reves;
JOHN no birth date given
EMMA birth 01 Jan 1835
JAMES birth 13 Oct 1837
This appears to be them in 1841;
William Reeves 40 Labourer
Mary Reeves 40
Henry Reeves 15
William Reeves 10
Mary Reeves 8
Emma Reeves 6
James Reeves 4
Caroline Reeves 1
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Thanks Trish. Yes have looked at gro but couldn't actually find any of the registrations but will try again.
Don't know where my research abilities were hiding with this family as it all seems to be in plain sight so thank you to you and Jon for finding the info and bringing it to my attention.
Pheno
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There's a death of a 49 year old William Reeves in the Brighton RD for Q2 1850 with a burial entry for William Reeves of Orange Street on 17 Sep 1850. This would explain the marriage date of 1852 for William Hornsbury and Mary Reeves if she was not free to marry earlier. However, death registered 30 June at latest for this quarter doesn't really correspond with a burial in September.
Also found a burial for an infant William Reeves on 19 Sep 1852, of Bread Street, Brighton.
None of this really ties up as she was married by Sep 1852 so he would presumably have the surname Hornsbury.
Had a thought that maybe the infant William was born before she married and then presumably would have had to be registered with her name of Reeves.
There is a birth registration of William Reeves in Q1 Brighton in 1852. Mmn according to gro for this person is Sanders so I am going to try this now.
Am I going in the right direction do you think?
Pheno
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Hi
That looks like the death/burial of Mary's husband, William Reeves.
Family in Orange Row in 1851 (Recard on ancestry!)
Mary was 50 though, so I don't think she would have had any children for a few years. John the youngest is 8.
If you can find marriages for her other children with William Reeves, there could be more of them about!
John
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Am still in a tangle with this.
With your help I have progressed a bit and confirmed that William Winterman Hornsbury married firstly Mary Johnson Ship on 9 May 1831 and thereafter Mary Reeves (née Wells) in 1852 in Brighton.
No apparent children from marriage to Mary Reeves but 3 from first marriage to Mary Ship: Emma Eliza 1831, William 1834 & James 1840 (he was registered in Dover with mmn Ship) which is feasible as William's father James Holloway Goodwin - that's another story as to how they became Hornsberry's - hailed from Dover so am happy with that.
I have also found the baptism of a Sarah Hornsbury on 9 April 1847 at St. Nicholas, Brighton but to a William & Jane Hornsberry. Who was Jane? Another wife?
I am assuming that William was at sea for both the 1841 & 1851 censuses and on that naval merchant seaman record he states that his home address was Air Street, Brighton when on shore. Several members of the Hollingsbury family lived in Air Street and in 1851 there are 2 grandchildren living with William's parents whom I had not yet attached to anyone as children. Rather conveniently their names are William & James, one born Dover, so think the fact that they are there confirms William's absence at sea.
However the 2 girls Emma Eliza (Emma was Mary Ship's mother's name so am happy that she is a child although she seems to be known as Eliza rather than Emma) and Sarah seem a bit interchangeable.
I can't find anything definite going forward for Emma Eliza. There is a marriage for Sarah Hornsbury in 1869 to James Harman, as found by Jon. However there is a marriage for a widowed Eliza Harman (father William Hornsbury fisherman Deceased) on 29 July 1873 to a James Jasper.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6DSQ-GX7
So who is Eliza Harman? Should be Eliza Hornsbury or Sarah Harman.
Any assistance on figuring this out would be gratefully received thanks.
Pheno
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Hi
First marriage of Eliza (Hornsberry) to William Harman, 25 May 1851, Brighton
She is 20, father William Hornsberry, Labourer
Witnessed by William Hornsberry X
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBBS-HHR?i=246
Address looks like Wykeham Terrace, and in the 1851 census there is an Eliza Hollingsberry at number 11, age 20, born Brighton, a servant.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG8S-Z5B
So on the face of it she could be the Emma Eliza Hornsbury baptized at Brighton, 18 Sep 1831.
John
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You've found Sarah, her baptism. Still can't see a birth reg!
For Jane there is a death in Brighton, March 1852, Jane Hollingbery, age 44
And a burial at Brighton, 8 January 1852
Abode Orange Row (where the Reeves were in 1851!)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XHGV-G3
So that could be the death of Sarah's mum. Not seen a possible marriage to William yet, and I guess it would be good to kill off Mary (Ship) as well.
And where are Jane and Sarah in 1851?
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Wow! A rarity!
A Brighton school record from 1818 for a Wm Hollingsberry, age 9
Middle Street School
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBRJ-6T
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Thank you so much John. Haven't had a chance to look at these in detail yet but I am sure they will all fit.
So it wasn't Mary who delayed the marriage until 1852 it was William.
Much appreciated, Pheno
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Thanks again John, this has certainly padded out my tree.
I can find a marriage of a William Hollingsberry to possibly Jane Elizabeth Nelson on FreeBMD Mar 1843 (so the right time frame) but registered in Marylebone. What would a fisherman be doing there? Can't find an original of this anywhere, nor can i find it indexed on any other site than FreeBMD.
Anyway you have really helped in sorting this family out, which I will now put to bed for a while.
Thanks, Pheno
PS Have just tripped over the baptism of a Jane Nelson in Marylebone on 6 July 1808 with a birthdate of 5 Feb 1808 to John & Jane Nelson. I wonder? No he married Rosina Catherine Gordon