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General => The Stay Safe Board => Topic started by: Pheno on Monday 14 December 20 15:54 GMT (UK)
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I see London is going into Tier 3 on Wednesday and I wonder who else?
Do you think most people have stopped caring about covid now?
Sad to say but once it was realised that it was mainly quite elderly people who would die, it seems that most people just stopped caring.
I know we care because we are in that age group and probably our children/grandchildren care cos they know us personally - but do you think most unrelated people care any more?
Pheno
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I think it's that many people, when they have the idea they may not be likely to drop down dead with the virus, simply don't give a damn for anyone else.
The overall fright at the start made most people behave carefully, but they've got accustomed to the idea that many less vulnerable people "only" have relatively minor illness from it, and are determined to get on with their lives, and enjoyment especially at this time of year .... and they feel let the old "dears" just stay in, and hope for the best!
After all, a vaccine's magic, isn't it?
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I think that was the attitude prior to any vaccine TY.
Personally I don't see why the NHS don't treat all the covid patients in the Nightingale hospitals and leave the normal hospitals to get on with their ordinary work rather than create such backlogs. I know there will be some cross contamination but currently, it seems to me, that hospitals are designed to transfer infection between patients/outpatients. I assume that it is possibly due to staff shortages.
Pheno
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Technology means it's easy to keep in touch with other people. I can't understand why people need to meet up with others.
People have got bored with Covid and the restrictions it brings (including me). We need EVERYONE to stop mixing with others to stop the spread.
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Yes but we won't ever achieve that now that people have seen that mixing with others, if you are younger, doesn't really pose any threat to oneself at all. The youngsters want real social interaction not virtual meetups.
Pheno
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Bad communication via the Government to start off with.
There was no way Covid could be eradicated, the only way was the rapid development of the vaccine.
Had they managed the pandemic with any sense of logic this may well have been contained far better than they have and by now some sort of ordinary life would exist.
One of my Wife's Facebook friends is on the Test and Trace scheme and when they physically are contacting people to advise them to self isolate many are very abusive.
None of what the Government have done is for our benefit, it is simply to enable the NHS to cope with the influx.
Have the Nightingale's been used, if at all then only slightly at their capacity, the net result is Covid in every Hospital.
Our Daughter is a Nurse in a specialist unit and has been off work with Covid for 10 days, she is on the mend now.
Our GP was on the phone this morning and he has been off with Covid for a month and even had to be an in patient.
Yet all this could have been minimised by more decisive action and very punative actions against the idiots to ignore the rules.
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Youngsters generally are not being badly affected by the virus but they can see the impact on the economy. There will soon be no shops left on the High Streets, Pubs & restaurants are closing. People are losing their jobs. People are dying.
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Bad communication via the Government to start off with.
There was no way Covid could be eradicated, the only way was the rapid development of the vaccine.
Had they managed the pandemic with any sense of logic this may well have been contained far better than they have and by now some sort of ordinary life would exist.
One of my Wife's Facebook friends is on the Test and Trace scheme and when they physically are contacting people to advise them to self isolate many are very abusive.
None of what the Government have done is for our benefit, it is simply to enable the NHS to cope with the influx.
Have the Nightingale's been used, if at all then only slightly at their capacity, the net result is Covid in every Hospital.
Our Daughter is a Nurse in a specialist unit and has been off work with Covid for 10 days, she is on the mend now.
Our GP was on the phone this morning and he has been off with Covid for a month and even had to be an in patient.
Yet all this could have been minimised by more decisive action and very punative actions against the idiots to ignore the rules.
I hadn't intended to invite an overview of government action, or lack of, I was simply wondering actually about people's views on whether others have actually given up caring.
Pheno
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I, for one, haven't given up caring!
But then, daughter #1 works as a Kitchen Manager in a Primary School; daughter #2 works in a major hospital in Bristol in Pharmaceutical Stores (means she also has to keep the Bristol Nightingale Hospital stocked, too).
So, I worry about both of them.
Meanwhile I sit here in a Covid-free island, where face-masks are a rarity and no social distancing is required.
Pubs, restaurants, cafes and shops are all open ;D
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I do feel that people are taking an ‘it’s a not us attitude’...
only today on the local news it was reported that four £10,000 fines had been issued in the county town where police had attended three large gatherings.. one of about 60 people in an private house another of 100-150 in another private house with a live DJ 😱 finally the police were at a hotel giving out some information when they noticed some ‘smartly dressed people’ who were attending a wedding in the hotel with 70 guests....
I know that the hospitality sector are suffering badly but that is just down right irresponsible in my opinion...
What hope is there for the rest of us especially people of ‘ a certain age’ who by and large are keeping safe... for what ...others to make hay while the sunshine’s and we are whiling away our time staying safe.... it beggars belief...
Caroline
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Round here people are basically saying there’s nothing we can do about it so just be sensible.
In my view there are too many exemptions from the rules, if football matches can carry on as normal then why should we not meet together,
If gyms can be open why not other less elitist activities.
A pantomime with an audience, unbelievable
I coul go on for ever.
If you are at risk take care, don’t socialise, that’s the logic behind the rules.
Mike
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Yes but do the majority of the population care whether the elderly look after themselves and ensure their life is lived.
What about if all the elderly just 'took the hit' by not taking care and a percentage of them dying off - maybe a bit prematurely. If there were then no elderly persons either on whom the virus preys or for the sake of whom the majority of the restrictions are imposed would it be better for those that were left - the under 60's say - and would the virus just not have anybody on which to prey.
Should we be considering 'for the greater good'?
Pheno
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Mention of Nightingale hospitals reminded me I don't remember ever hearing where all the extra staff were going to come from to actually work in them?
I see they announced this afternoon a new variant of Covid has been discovered which they think is responsible for the rapid spread in London and the SE/E.
Our family are all being very strict about seeing us and each other, never mind the '5 days of Christmas' relaxation. Yes we are all sick of it but think how annoyed we would be to slip up now after nearly a year of sacrifice.
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Yes but do the majority of the population care whether the elderly look after themselves and ensure their life is lived.
What about if all the elderly just 'took the hit' by not taking care and a percentage of them dying off - maybe a bit prematurely. If there were then no elderly persons either on whom the virus preys or for the sake of whom the majority of the restrictions are imposed would it be better for those that were left - the under 60's say - and would the virus just not have anybody on which to prey.
Should we be considering 'for the greater good'?
Pheno
All I can say is we had lots of deliveries during the first lockdown when we weren't going anywhere & all the drivers seemed only too happy to chat to us - they were all young, and as we apologised that they were having to be on the front line for the sake of us oldies, every single one said they were happy to do their bit, they had elderly relatives, they were taking precautions etc etc. I think most people care.
Pat
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I see they announced this afternoon a new variant of Covid has been discovered which they think is responsible for the rapid spread in London and the SE/E.
Our family are all being very strict about seeing us and each other, never mind the '5 days of Christmas' relaxation. Yes we are all sick of it but think how annoyed we would be to slip up now after nearly a year of sacrifice.
My sentiments entirely... the vaccine is here and we just need to wait maybe a few more months... what’s that after the sacrifices we’ve made up to now...
We most definitely won’t be seeing our daughter and family over Christmas.... I’ve kept all the card boxes from various deliveries and tomorrow I’m going to package it all up and hopefully use the PO collection system to send them their presents.
As they live in Ealing were not going to even meet up outside somewhere to swap gifts.... it’s too risky...
We just have to hang in there and wait....
Why aren’t the government taking steps to cancel Christmas if the rates are going up again... the German government have...
Caroline
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I think it is possibly a case of "some do, some don't" and also we don't know what other people's commitments are.
Personally, I'm lucky - I am pensioner (as is OH), and we have no mortgage to pay. Our joint pensions more than cover all our outgoings.
BUT - I see that there is a spike in cases in Kent (we used to live there in the past) and I can understand the reasons. A lot of people live in Kent because housing is more affordable. However, where do they work, if possible? London, of course, because that is where the wages are higher and work is more plentiful, which results in daily commuting. Plus, where is there more entertainment :-\ The same can be said for Birmingham and probably other large cities.
A simplistic view, maybe :)
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It is easy for me, in a quiet little village, but if we had two kids, say six and eight, and we lived in a tower block with a hundred other families and always one lift out of action we might feel differently.
Mike
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Yes, I do care , very much so, we will be in tier 3 on Wednesday, I am very sad about it all, it just seems to go on and on , never ending , i have abided by the rules, and here we go again
Louisa Maud
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Just read that we’re going into Tier 3 too, here in SW Hertfordshire:-(
I think it would make it much easier for people to follow if we had another complete Lockdown, - as is happening in Germany.
Romilly.
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I think that was the attitude prior to any vaccine TY.
Personally I don't see why the NHS don't treat all the covid patients in the Nightingale hospitals and leave the normal hospitals to get on with their ordinary work rather than create such backlogs. I know there will be some cross contamination but currently, it seems to me, that hospitals are designed to transfer infection between patients/outpatients. I assume that it is possibly due to staff shortages.
Pheno
Because there isn't enough staff to staff both the existing hospitals and the Nightingales. Staff are already working extra hours to keep things going.
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I think I agree with Romilly - another lockdown would be so much simpler. It is all too complicated for people to bother with various tiers.
I don't think that the spike in Kent has much to do with London commuting. It started in the more disadvantaged areas of Thanet and Swale, while the real commuter belt to the South and South-West of London has a lower incidence (at the moment). They are probably all furloughed or working from home. There seems to be a suggestion now that there is a link with the new version of the virus.
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Yes but do the majority of the population care whether the elderly look after themselves and ensure their life is lived.
What about if all the elderly just 'took the hit' by not taking care and a percentage of them dying off - maybe a bit prematurely. If there were then no elderly persons either on whom the virus preys or for the sake of whom the majority of the restrictions are imposed would it be better for those that were left - the under 60's say - and would the virus just not have anybody on which to prey.
Should we be considering 'for the greater good'?
Pheno
As it appears to be the younger elements of society spreading the virus, why not lock up all the under 40s, and let the rest of us live a normal life?
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As it appears to be the younger elements of society spreading the virus, why not lock up all the under 40s, and let the rest of us live a normal life?
What an excellent suggestion.... can we party in pubs and fall out of them onto the pavements and hug one another before going back to your place or mine to carry on with the party....
I think I’d rather stick to my small village community where everyone has been sensible because we’re all responsible adults!
Caroline
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I think that some of the problem is that the last lockdown wasn't hard enough and a lot of people carried on with life as normal - went to work, children went to school, shops were open etc. When all these things are allowed a lot of people say. "It can't be as bad as they are making out."
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Yes but do the majority of the population care whether the elderly look after themselves and ensure their life is lived.
What about if all the elderly just 'took the hit' by not taking care and a percentage of them dying off - maybe a bit prematurely. If there were then no elderly persons either on whom the virus preys or for the sake of whom the majority of the restrictions are imposed would it be better for those that were left - the under 60's say - and would the virus just not have anybody on which to prey.
Should we be considering 'for the greater good'?
Pheno
As it appears to be the younger elements of society spreading the virus, why not lock up all the under 40s, and let the rest of us live a normal life?
;D ;D ;D Hadn't thought of it that way around - makes sense to me.
Pheno
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Well it will be as bad as they are making out if more people die, yesterday I heard friends of mine who had a married couple die in their family within 2 days of each other, children had both parents die within 2 days, how sad is that?
The sad thing is this has all been beyond our control, who would have thought 10 months or so ago this would happen
LM
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Do you think most people have stopped caring about covid now?
Pheno
Younger people, yes.
There is an emotional condition, which translates across all aspects of life. It is called compassion fatigue. In other walks of life it does not have a name but it is the same thing.
Before WW1 it was recognized that fighting men lose concentration after a certain number of hours. Even still today they exercise the troops to see how long they can go before the start making mistakes.
People will continue to care if they have a vested interest in the situation, but if no one that they know is getting it or dying, then they will lose interest.
I was told many years ago - "Never appeal to a man's better instincts, he might not have any. Always appeal to his self interest." If they can't see a benefit to their immediate family, they lose interest - it just becomes a chore.
Regards
Chas
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Do you think most people have stopped caring about covid now?
Pheno
Younger people, yes.
There is an emotional condition, which translates across all aspects of life. It is called compassion fatigue. In other walks of life it does not have a name but it is the same thing.
Before WW1 it was recognized that fighting men lose concentration after a certain number of hours. Even still today they exercise the troops to see how long they can go before the start making mistakes.
People will continue to care if they have a vested interest in the situation, but if no one that they know is getting it or dying, then they will lose interest.
I was told many years ago - "Never appeal to a man's better instincts, he might not have any. Always appeal to his self interest." If they can't see a benefit to their immediate family, they lose interest - it just becomes a chore.
Regards
Chas
For me what makes it feel like a chore is the futility of it all. The knowledge that all the effort I put in is wiped out and some by people not doing even the simplest of things. Yesterday I was walking along a wide pavement. Wide enough for 2 people to pass while distanced. However the person coming towards me stubbornly stuck to the very middle of the pavement meaning i had to go out onto the road. I completely don't mind doing that on narrow pavements but this annoyed me because there was so much room if we each took a side of the pavement. I've been shouted at because I do wear a mask. I've witnessed shop staff being spat on when they try and encouraging distancing within their shop, I see people having big parties. Three weeks ago a parent at my daughter's school hosted a party, they had covid (diagnosed), the school has been forced to close, one staff member is in ITU. I wear a mask, I reorganised my life to minimise the need to go out, I wear a mask, I distance as much as possible, I have only seen my mum through the window since March,I've had to watch people die and all that effort was for nothing it's never going to be over
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Interesting reading - experiences of a contact tracer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-55280321
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Another example of a younger person:
https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/man-jailed-after-scotland-to-isle-of-man-jet-ski-crossing/
The Isle of Man has closed borders for a reason!
This young man not only broke that, but he had never ridden a jet-ski before ::)
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Another example of a younger person:
https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/man-jailed-after-scotland-to-isle-of-man-jet-ski-crossing/
The Isle of Man has closed borders for a reason!
This young man not only broke that, but he had never ridden a jet-ski before ::)
Did he have a death wish? I know that the IoM isn't that far away, but on a jet ski!
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I think that was the attitude prior to any vaccine TY.
Personally I don't see why the NHS don't treat all the covid patients in the Nightingale hospitals and leave the normal hospitals to get on with their ordinary work rather than create such backlogs. I know there will be some cross contamination but currently, it seems to me, that hospitals are designed to transfer infection between patients/outpatients. I assume that it is possibly due to staff shortages.
Pheno
Because there isn't enough staff to staff both the existing hospitals and the Nightingales. Staff are already working extra hours to keep things going.
Rather worrying to see how much cross infection there is in some of our hospitals.
The shrunk url link
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01q4g/
has been created for
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/09/exclusive-10000-patients-caught-covid-19-treated-hospital/?WT.mc_id=e_DM1314433&WT.tsrc=email&etype=Edi_Edi_New_Reg&utmsource=email&utm_medium=Edi_Edi_New_Reg20201210&utm_campaign=DM1314433
My brother lives in the South West were infection rates are relatively low, yet his local hospital comes out as over 30% of reported cases since August acquired in that hospital.
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I think that was the attitude prior to any vaccine TY.
Personally I don't see why the NHS don't treat all the covid patients in the Nightingale hospitals and leave the normal hospitals to get on with their ordinary work rather than create such backlogs. I know there will be some cross contamination but currently, it seems to me, that hospitals are designed to transfer infection between patients/outpatients. I assume that it is possibly due to staff shortages.
Pheno
Because there isn't enough staff to staff both the existing hospitals and the Nightingales. Staff are already working extra hours to keep things going.
Rather worrying to see how much cross infection there is in some of our hospitals.
The shrunk url link
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01q4g/
has been created for
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/09/exclusive-10000-patients-caught-covid-19-treated-hospital/?WT.mc_id=e_DM1314433&WT.tsrc=email&etype=Edi_Edi_New_Reg&utmsource=email&utm_medium=Edi_Edi_New_Reg20201210&utm_campaign=DM1314433
My brother lives in the South West were infection rates are relatively low, yet his local hospital comes out as over 30% of reported cases since August acquired in that hospital.
Staff are often forced to work in minimal PPE. Often hospital design hinders isolation. We had a hospital near us that individual pavilions that could be isolated. The demolished it relatively recently because pavilions like that are not needed now apparently.
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I had to go to my bank yesterday to transfer some money. I don’t do internet banking so a branch visit was necessary.
The bank is located in a local shopping centre. It was very busy, a wide range of ages were there.
I don’t feel comfortable in crowded places any more. I mask up, do what I have to do and then leave - I don’t linger.
But from the number of people in the shopping centre, you would not think that there has ever been, and still is, a pandemic going on. >:(
I have to pay a second visit to the centre today, this time for a prescription. Again, I will turn up, get it, and go.
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Yes really I think the only way to reduce footfall is for all non-essential shops to close for a period of time, then there is not much for anybody to go out for other than exercise.
Pheno
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In the first lockdown, a few local pubs were selling takeaway beer - turn up with own container, they filled it, off you went to drink at home.
Except one establishment decided to let people drink in the street outside, no social distancing, and residents got very upset to find people urinating against walls as pub toilet was out of use.
>:( >:( >:(
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Except one establishment decided to let people drink in the street outside, no social distancing, and residents got very upset to find people urinating against walls as pub toilet was out of use.
>:( >:( >:(
If it was the street outside, it surely is a public place and not the pub's property, so how could the pub have any control over what the people, who had just purchased their drinks from them, were doing?
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You certainly wouldn't be permitted to buy drink at a pub in Glasgow & drink it out on the street. We don't have any pubs at present & buying alcohol at a shop & drinking it in street is prohibited in any case! The public parks by-laws prohibit alcohol consumption in the parks. :D
Skoosh.
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Seen on a Facebook Group my Wife belongs to.
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We are just going into Tier 3 and that is terrible.
All the Shops are having to close.
I’ll now have to go out of the area to get my Christmas Shopping.
::)
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BMJ editorial - jointly with Health Service Journal
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4847
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Seen on a Facebook Group my Wife belongs to.
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We are just going into Tier 3 and that is terrible.
All the Shops are having to close.
I’ll now have to go out of the area to get my Christmas Shopping.
::)
All shops closing - where has that come from?
Tier 3 restrictions:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-3-very-high-alert
"retail premises may open, other than shops situated inside closed premises that cannot be accessed directly from the street – retail premises within accommodation may also stay open"
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I think it was an example of the rubbish that gets said on 'social media'
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I think it was an example of the rubbish that gets said on 'social media'
I though Facebook and the other media were supposed to remove fake messages
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I think it was an example of the rubbish that gets said on 'social media'
I though Facebook and the other media were supposed to remove fake messages
There are so many lately they probably don't have time!
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I think it was an example of the rubbish that gets said on 'social media'
I though Facebook and the other media were supposed to remove fake messages
There are so many lately they probably don't have time!
1 - Someone has to complain first.
2 - They don't have the staff. Everything is done by clever algorithms, which are not as clever as they like to think.
Regards
Chas
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Except one establishment decided to let people drink in the street outside, no social distancing, and residents got very upset to find people urinating against walls as pub toilet was out of use.
>:( >:( >:(
If it was the street outside, it surely is a public place and not the pub's property, so how could the pub have any control over what the people, who had just purchased their drinks from them, were doing?
It's against the law in the IoM, too! Urinating in a public place!
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Seen on a Facebook Group my Wife belongs to.
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We are just going into Tier 3 and that is terrible.
All the Shops are having to close.
I’ll now have to go out of the area to get my Christmas Shopping.
::)
All shops closing - where has that come from?
Tier 3 restrictions:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-3-very-high-alert
"retail premises may open, other than shops situated inside closed premises that cannot be accessed directly from the street – retail premises within accommodation may also stay open"
I do not think that the point is that it was a fake post, that term gets abused far to much.
More like the person simply does not know the rules and that she sees nothing wrong in travelling to a Tier 1 or 2 area to do her Christmas Shopping.
The rules are too complicated and far, far to long for the average Joe or Jane to read them, they simply ignore them and get on with their lives.
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I may be wrong but I don't think it is actually against the rules either to travel out of area.
I think the guidance says to stay local but doesn't actually prohibit travel
If they don't want people doing things then they will have to prohibit it - but then lots of people would be up in arms about civil liberties.
Pheno
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We have been out shopping this morning, managed to get a coffee well spaced out just above the door where customers came into a departmental shop, I was pleasantly surprised to see most were wearing masks, one man possibly in his 30's didn't wear a mask, a few women didn't wear masks, I have an idea why these women didn't wear masks and my guess is they have breathing problems, not many people shopping considering we all go into tier 3 tomorrow
Beautiful sunny day here in Essex, if I wasn't shopping I would have gone for a long walk it is so pleasant
LM
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Test and protect is also a farce. My daughter was sent home from school and told that they would be in touch to advise on when to isolate until and to give further advice on what we needed to do. Picked her up and heard nothing all day so looked up general guidance. Confined to her room, I take food and leave it at her door, I've been sterilising her cutlery by boiling in a pan and sterilising her plates and washing separately. Dirty washing sealed in a bin bag and kept separate from rest of wash etc. We only have one bathroom so couldn't follow that advice so she wore a mask when she needed the toilet,window open at all times, had her own towel and carried her own disinfectant spray and sprayed the taps and door handles each time. Anyway we finally got out official contact today. With only 9 hours of isolation left. Apparently as he is under 18 I was supposed to bubble with her and isolate too. As the advice I could find online on NHSinfor website said the rest of the family didn't have to isolate unless she showed symptoms I have been taking her wee sister to school based on that advice (and the school telling me she should attend) so I guess I've been scum putting people at risk. :'(
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Did anyone read what the medical profession say about it all - my earlier link. It's damning.
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Did anyone read what the medical profession say about it all - my earlier link. It's damning.
Yes, but will the politicians? They're just think of the popularity ratings.
Data and graphs here
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
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Did anyone read what the medical profession say about it all - my earlier link. It's damning.
Yes, I just chose not to respond because I will be more damning not just about a wishy washy Government but a Medical Profession not being up in arms about the minimal level of protection given to their staff.
The Government should have had a total County wide lockdown of every thing except essentials, and essentials is not going out to the shop for some new clothes or a gang of kids playing football. It should have been a full stay at home or else Lockdown.
Draconian, yes, but a month of this leading up to about the 18th December would have seen the infection rates nosedive, many lives saved and then a relaxation of the Lockdown from the 23rd to the 27th Dec could be possible with minimal risk after which Tier 3 throughout the UK for a couple of weeks whilst the infection rate rise takes effect and further assessments can have then been made.
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I have had a gutful of Covid, and a gutful of 2020. On top of that my father died in October.
But I will still adhere to social distancing rules and wear a mask in public, plus use plenty of hand sanitiser, in shop doorways and keep topped up.
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Did anyone read what the medical profession say about it all - my earlier link. It's damning.
Does anyone else think all these dire warnings from the scientists and medical professionals that are coming thick and fast now, are softening us up for the Government to change their minds on the 'relaxation for 5 days at Christmas' nonsense?
I have been (briefly) shopping today and as usual, very impressed with all the precautions & everyone's serious attitude to it - yet cases in my area are rising faster than ever. For the first time I'm beginning to wonder if this will ever end :-[
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Our experience of test and trace is that they can't tell their elbow from any other part of their anatomy.
I'd tested positive, husband tests positive less than a week later, and T&Trace is insisting I should isolate 2 weeks from his test.
That isn't what the guidelines state. Although I did cancel my flu jab on the remote possibility I might transfer the virus to any vulnerables at the GP surgery.
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I've cancelled Christmas this year. I had expected Covid-19 to mutate the same way that the flu mutates as it travels around the country. I didn't expect there to be an announcement that a new and separate Covid had appeared in southern England and now nine cases of this new strain in Glasgow.
How and why did a new strain appear in the UK? As Glasgow is a port it's reasonable to think it arrived via a ship. As the TV colour chart showed the new virus appearing in the region of Folkestone Harbour, I suspect the new virus entered via that port.
Should I be surprised that UK Border Guards are not testing sailors and passengers who arrive in this country?
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A good observation, Rena. I've not looked at the maps yet.
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Perhaps it’s time we stopped trying to delay the inevitable and started planning to win the fight.
Personally I would like to see every GP practice told to give their most vulnerable patients the Oxford vaccine now, as in this week, regardless of the red tape, it might work, one or two might die, it might be me, but it might work for the other half a million,
Another thought is to tell we most vulnerable to forget the rules but follow the advice.
The advice is basically only shop at quiet times for essentials, no cafes, no social mixing indoors or out, and no thinking it’s ok to stop for a chat.
Mike
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And the relatives of those one or two would then sue AsraZeneca, the NHS, the government......
Unfortunately there's no short cuts, just sit it out and wait for the vaccine.
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And the relatives of those one or two would then sue AsraZeneca, the NHS,
You have hit the nail on the head there :)
And they sue because the can’t visit their mum in the home, and no doubt they will sue because mum was not vaccinated and others will sue because mum was vaccinated and so it goes on.
My experience of the NHS is that they are strangled by the need to record every detail in duplicate to protect themselves against legal action, my every visit over two years generated five sheets of A4, which the visiting consultant had to bring with him in his car, along with the other twenty folders for the other patients he was seeing. Don’t they have computers.
Mike
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"As the TV colour chart showed the new virus appearing in the region of Folkestone Harbour, I suspect the new virus entered via that port."
Can someone point me in the direction of this chart please?
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Did anyone read what the medical profession say about it all - my earlier link. It's damning.
Yes, I just chose not to respond because I will be more damning not just about a wishy washy Government but a Medical Profession not being up in arms about the minimal level of protection given to their staff.
The Government should have had a total County wide lockdown of every thing except essentials, and essentials is not going out to the shop for some new clothes or a gang of kids playing football. It should have been a full stay at home or else Lockdown.
In the Isle of Man, we did just that for 12 weeks - and we also closed the borders; only a very few essential flights and ferries.
That's why we have very little Covid cases; and those we do have are under control.
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I've cancelled Christmas this year. I had expected Covid-19 to mutate the same way that the flu mutates as it travels around the country. I didn't expect there to be an announcement that a new and separate Covid had appeared in southern England and now nine cases of this new strain in Glasgow.
How and why did a new strain appear in the UK?
"New variant of coronavirus identified in England"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55308211
"New Covid strain: How worried should we be?"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55312505
There have been other mutations. One was brought back to Britain in September from Spain by returning holidaymakers. It will take time for scientists to find out how this latest one originated.
Some newspaper headlines about it are more alarming, to grab attention, but text in an article doesn't justify a scary headline.
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I don't want to read the papers anymore to be honest, find it totally worrying, like someone else mentioned on here I am fed up with hearing about it and the contradictions and that is not from the govt, the media.
LM
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My worry is that one country (probably England!) will stick to the relaxation over Christmas, but the others will tighten up. I think that will lead to a lot of rule breaking, especially for those with relatives in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland who had planned to visit. I know it would be really hard, especially for people who haven't been able to see family, but I think rather than the 3 household rule, which could mean 12 or more people getting together, it might have been better to say that only people who live alone could go to close family.
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I don't think the rules are strict enough, when Families get together, it is inevitable that their guard with be relaxed when they have had a few drinks unfortunately. Both our Son and Daughter and their families live out of town and we have made a collective decision not to travel this Christmas. It wasn't an easy decision but a necessary one. I have only seen both families three times this year but we feel it is the right decision, you only get one life, but there will be many more Christmases to enjoy if we take care of each other and abide by the rules.
Keep calm and keep your distance....we will get through this.
Carol
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Does anyone know what the rules are over Christmas if you are in Tier 3? Does it mean that restaurants won't be able to serve sit down Christmas dinners or is that relaxed over the 5 days?
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No Jan, as I understand it, they will reamain closed. We are in tier 3 and so is our Son, but our Daughter is in Tier 2
Carol
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No Jan, as I understand it, they will reamain closed. We are in tier 3 and so is our Son, but our Daughter is in Tier 2
Carol
I'm in Tier 3 now. I was just wondering, as that will really hit restaurants hard won't it, if they can't serve Christmas meals? Perhaps they will do them as take aways and people will be able to collect their dinner.
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I don't think that the three households can go to a restaurant together. It says the rule about who you can meet will not change and depends on your tier
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/guidance-for-the-christmas-period#visiting-bars-pubs-and-restaurants
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Never mind. The latest figures show that the '14 - '19 epidemic of H1-N1 resulted in 100,000,000 deaths world wide and took nearly 6 years to totally subside, then recurred several years later several times.
So in essence, we still have a long way to go.
Malky, who has to laugh when members of parliament tell us this is an unprecedented situation.
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I don't think that the three households can go to a restaurant together. It says the rule about who you can meet will not change and depends on your tier
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/guidance-for-the-christmas-period#visiting-bars-pubs-and-restaurants
Yes that's correct, the 3 households can't go out to Christmas dinner together. However in tier 3 pubs and restaurants are closed completely so you can't have a meal inside but they can serve takeaway meals. I was wondering whether that was staying in place for Christmas Day.
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I have only seen both families three times this year but we feel it is the right decision, you only get one life, but there will be many more Christmases to enjoy if we take care of each other and abide by the rules.
We'll be doing things along these lines too, but a government minister on TV this morning either mentioned or made me think of the situation of those who for whatever reason might not expect to see another Christmas. We who are younger/fitter/healthier can hope for better times ahead and should be prepared to defer our get-togethers, but I think there probably needs to be some flexibility to cater for those whose prospects are more limited.
Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that so long as you prop a granny up in the corner (yours, theirs, anyone's will do :o) the younger ones will have carte blanche to do whatever they want. It needs to be the older/less healthy person's own choice - and some of them might decide it's more responsible to 'take one for the team' and not do it this year.
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To get back to whether we care about Covid anymore......
[I am nearly 70, on heart medication, thus considered to be in a vulnerable category.]
During the last "lockdown", people were expected to go to work, if they couldn't work from home, and all education places remained open.
Which is most under age 65 people's normal, pre-Covid life, and if you are supposed to take the risk of contracting Covid living your normal life, why shouldn't you also go to the pub/gym/cinema etc, etc?
But, I do believe that if UK had taken more stringent measures early in 2020, we wouldn't have one of the worst death rates, per capita, in the world.
What really surprises me is that Germany has introduced stringent measures to mitigate infection till after new year..... but UK don't feel able to do the same.
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Mainland Europe is currently experiencing a second wave of the Covid-virus and the German government have been really surprised that their success this year at keeping the numbers down to a peak of about 7,000 is not the case with this second wave, which reached a daily figure of nearly 30,000.
I can hazard a guess that when the Germans shut down their workforce, it means the death toll will rise because people cannot
afford to pay their sickness/hospital insurance fees
Our country is unique; I think our free NHS has saved many people from dying earlier in their lives, although they've had to live with underlying health problems; and that's why we have experienced the sad demise of loved ones.
Overcrowded homes is dangerous. Even though the UK is smaller than Germany and has a smaller population we have more people per acre. Anyone who watches programmes such as "Can't Pay...." and "slum landlords" knows that what used to be family homes up to the 1970's are now houses of multiple occupancy and/or homes where several generations of the same family live. A few years ago in a long row of terraced houses across from my own home it was found that one tenant had been renting out mattresses on the floor in his own place, PLUS had rented out mattresses up in his loft and as his illegal clientele increased he had knocked out the dividing walls in his neighbours attics in which he'd put more mattresses.
THE ADVICE is; if we're going to meet up with other families this Christmas, the sensible idea is to isolate ourselves for five days beforehand and if Covid doesn't appear then go and have your family Xmas, but don't plan to sleep overnight.
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I can hazard a guess that when the Germans shut down their workforce, it means the death toll will rise because people cannot
afford to pay their sickness/hospital insurance fees
Our country is unique;
https://the-red-relocators.com/relocation-guides-germany/healthcare-in-germany/
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I have only done essential shopping since March. When permitted, I did go to the hairdressers where they check temperatures, we all wear masks. Only one client at a time per hairdresser. (If you arrive early you have to wait outside!)
Yesterday it was necessary for a workman to come into the house. He assured me had sterilised his hands, wore a mask and even brought his own coffee and a mug. All he needed from me was boiling water, which I put in the mug.
My sister (closest relative) I have not seen since November 2019. Our holiday this year was cancelled. We rebooked for April next year and now wonder if that will happen.
I have no desire to catch this dreadful disease, so I am keeping to the rules - in fact I have even stricter rules than the government have in place.
Keep safe everyone!
FS
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How and why did a new strain appear in the UK?
A clear explanation by Ewan Birney in a long thread on 14th Dec. on Twitter at ewanbirney.
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I can hazard a guess that when the Germans shut down their workforce, it means the death toll will rise because people cannot
afford to pay their sickness/hospital insurance fees
Our country is unique;
https://the-red-relocators.com/relocation-guides-germany/healthcare-in-germany/
Yes, I've known about that for years, some of my family lived there and paid the insurance and I'm not talking about the "finest health service", I'm pointing out differences.
My point being that after one full year of any government ordering companies/businesses/shops to shut down, there are many workers on the bread line. When one is on the breadline one has to make choices of what to cut out of a budget.
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How and why did a new strain appear in the UK?
A clear explanation by Ewan Birney in a long thread on 14th Dec. on Twitter at ewanbirney.
Thanks - I've had a look, I'm not technical but he does keep repeating the same words = "London and South East". Whereas the map on TV just showed a coloured patch for Glasgow and a tiny triangle on the south east coast of England (the part which is closest to France).
From memory; the triangle had over 1000 cases and Glasgow had 9 cases.
The other word he repeated was "mutant", not "new strain" as per BBC news.
"Ah well", as the old saying goes: " it will all come out in the wash".
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The way I think about it is quite straightforward really.
We are in a pandemic. Call it "the plague" if you will. It's the thing that could send you off.
We need food. It's best though to avoid human contact. It's transmitted by human to human contact in the main. The risks are reduced outdoors, but in an enclosed space the risk is hightened.
So, with that balance of risk, we do "Click and Collect", it's in Asda as it happens.
We go for walks where there are very few people about. We go to the allotment to tend to our vegetables and collect them. Despite it being December, we are still getting out lettuce, raddish, beetroots, kale, cabbage (and a few other bits), and we are waiting on our Christmas parsnips and min-carrots!
That's our lot. With the exception of going into very targetted shops on some four instances or so in ten months, and at the quietest of times, that really is our lot.
The mantra of essential shopping, minimizing risk seems to make great sense.
There are many of us treating this as the pandemic that it is. If we can live without the "fix" of going shopping then let's live, and let others live!
Trystan
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If we can live without the "fix" of going shopping then let's live, and let others live!
Trystan
I haven't been out shopping all year but now need to buy presents for loved ones. I made a list, surfed through several large online outlets only to find the items on my list were marked "not available". After a period of time I've returned to see if the items have been restocked but unfortunately all are still marked; "not available" .
Santa will be leaving "cash" in most stockings this year.
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Glasgow & Clyde NHS Health Board is the largest in Scotland & one of the largest in Britain.
NHS Scotland was founded in 1948 and currently has not gone down the road of Trusts, prior to that date half of the country was already covered by the public owned Highlands & Islands Medical Service, established 35 years earlier!
Overcrowding is not a problem here, there's certainly room for Rena even! ;D
Skoosh.
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I can hazard a guess that when the Germans shut down their workforce, it means the death toll will rise because people cannot
afford to pay their sickness/hospital insurance fees
Our country is unique;
https://the-red-relocators.com/relocation-guides-germany/healthcare-in-germany/
Yes, I've known about that for years, some of my family lived there and paid the insurance and I'm not talking about the "finest health service", I'm pointing out differences.
My point being that after one full year of any government ordering companies/businesses/shops to shut down, there are many workers on the bread line. When one is on the breadline one has to make choices of what to cut out of a budget.
You are saying that Germany does not have a care system for the unemployed/destitute. ?
Health insurance fees are paid by the employment authority if you receive unemployment benefits.
The poor /homeless are entitled to social security payments (called "Hartz IV") and these also cover the health insurance, similar to unemployment benefits.
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Trystan, you're doing almost exactly what we're doing, right from the start of all this - except we couldn't get any delivery slots right at the start, so I do one "shop" a week, at a very quiet time, at my nearest Sainsburys, gloved and masked and sanitised. OH, asthmatic, hasn't been near a shop since March! Walking locally a little, posting things, etc, and I collect his prescriptions from the nearest chemist.
One "workman" only has been over our doormat since all this started - sorting our central heating boiler. We know him well, and he needed mainly access to the garage, apart from a swift sortie to the gas fire in the sitting room. No problems, we all did the right things.
No friends or relatives have been in, but we've nearly worn the 'phones out!!
"Sitting tight" and behaving sensibly is the only way through all this. Our generation(s) have so much more at our disposal to help us cope - television, internet, and yes, the much-reviled "Amazon", for which I am personally very grateful, etc., than past generations would have had. But, contrarywise, a few hundred years back, the news moved slower, and so probably did the plagues!
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Glasgow & Clyde NHS Health Board is the largest in Scotland & one of the largest in Britain.
NHS Scotland was founded in 1948 and currently has not gone down the road of Trusts, prior to that date half of the country was already covered by the public owned Highlands & Islands Medical Service, established 35 years earlier!
Overcrowding is not a problem here, there's certainly room for Rena even! ;D
Skoosh.
How do you know my size? ??? Have you been peeking? :D
Ditto ref the NHS. I remember prior to nationalisation my mother paying our local GP (Dr. Ferguson) two half crowns for his home visit (in Yorkshire) to examine my brother and myself.
Until the 1970s Englandf had public hospitals paid for by local weekly penny contributions. Our local (Lancashire) hospital was run by a Dr. Cameron. There was a tug of war when he retired and for some reason nobody who applied to fill his shoes was found to be suitable. The town hall was packed with locals when the "local" panel of doctors called a meeting, ostensibly to reassure locals about the future of care in the community. The stage was full of men. "Who are you " shouted some residents, "We're your local doctors" was the response. With that the local residents shouted out; "We don't recognise any of you". It emerged the doctors had decided they could treat more than the residents in their own patch and intended to shut down this town's hospital. This is a "red flag flying high" area so it was a surprise when Thatcher sent an emissary, who was escourted about by local nursing staff and shown the route that the local ambulance and passenger buses would have to travel to get to the new "local" hospital housed in an old Victorian asylum. The road looked like it had had several visits from Hitlers bombers. Word came back from Westminster that our local hospital must not be closed down.The Trust management refused to fill Dr Camern's shoes, so our local GPs got together and kept the hospital open. I remember my own GP did Tuesday afternoons. It's still open but has no surgeries, not even a tonsil is removed here, and the Blair/Brown years saw the closure of the A&E.
You'll notice two Scottish surnames above and I can add from the 1880s, four generations of the Crum family also went into the nursing profession, even my late cousin Dennis Gordon Crum, who was an engineering apprentice, but hated it so much he secretly signed up into the army and retrained as a medic I vividly remember his dad, My Uncle John arriving at our house in the 1950s trying not to weep, bemoaning the fact that his son was doing women's work and was now a "nurse" -"What will the neighbours think when they find out?". Dennis' daughter is now retired from nursing, but we still have the younger generation in that profession.
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Rena, one of my gt grannies was a "howdy" in Glasgow's Townhead/Garngad, an unofficial midwife, her towels & peenie aye at the ready, day and night. A doctors call-out might have cost hauf a croon back then. The kitchen fire was kept banked-up for hot water and burning purposes. I suppose only difficult cases went to the Maternity Hospital?
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Rena, one of my gt grannies was a "howdy" in Glasgow's Townhead/Garngad, an unofficial midwife, her towels & peenie aye at the ready, day and night. A doctors call-out might have cost hauf a croon back then. The kitchen fire was kept banked-up for hot water and burning purposes. I suppose only difficult cases went to the Maternity Hospital?
Bests,
Skoosh.
My Nana and her siblings were born in James Nesbit st.
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Snap Pharma, she lived in James Nesbit Street! :D maybe brought some of them into the world? I believe the late Arnold Clark lived up the next close.
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Snap Pharma, she lived in James Nesbit Street! :D maybe brought some of them into the world? I believe the late Arnold Clark lived up the next close.
Bests,
Skoosh.
That would be so cool, sadly no one left to ask.
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Much the same here Pharma, they moved from the Townhead as my gt grand paw got work in St Rollox railway workshops.
Skoosh.
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Much the same here Pharma, they moved from the Townhead as my gt grand paw got work in St Rollox railway workshops.
Skoosh.
You're kidding, my Dad worked there until it closed.
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Much the same here Pharma, they moved from the Townhead as my gt grand paw got work in St Rollox railway workshops.
Skoosh.
You're kidding, my Dad worked there until it closed.
That three of us with similar ancestry: My dad's fatherr (Andrew SD Crum) served his engineering apprenticeship with Caledonian at the Rollox Workshop.
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My understanding is the NHS came into being in 1948 (the year I was born)
Don't understand the earlier comment re payments "Until the 1970s England had public hospitals paid for by local weekly penny contributions."
I started work in 1965 - paid NHS contributions (stamp) on my earnings - never paid a penny for public hospital - so what was this?
Can someone clarify, please???
FS
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My understanding is the NHS came into being in 1948 (the year I was born)
Don't understand the earlier comment re payments "Until the 1970s England had public hospitals paid for by local weekly penny contributions."
I started work in 1965 - paid NHS contributions (stamp) on my earnings - never paid a penny for public hospital - so what was this?
Can someone clarify, please???
FS
One of my grandfather's sisters born in Glasgow in 1850s, eventually becvame the Matron of Primrose Hill Hospital, Jarrow, County Durham. People's taxes paid her wages. To my knowledge it's still operating as a hospital run by the NHS.
During WWII, in March 1942 Winston Church, prime minister, stood up in parliament & said the British government had to make plans for the end of the War. Because at the end of WW1 there had been no preparation to get the country up and running again and as a result millions were out of work. Churchill mentioned he liked the 1942 Report produced by the Liberal MP BEVERIDGE who had set out plans for His 'cradle to the grave' social programme that amongst other proposals called for a free national health service. the first General Election after the war was won by the people's party = Labour Party, leader Clement Atlee and his government set about organising our National Health Service, free at the point of delivery., which meant my mother never had to put her hand in her purse again to pay for medical treatment - because my dad paid for it when he paid his annual taxes.
" The idea of collecting income tax by withholding income was originally piloted by Churchill’s Chancellor, Sir Kingsley Wood, in 1940/41 to replace annual and half-yearly tax collections. The Treasury needed to find a way to finance the war while keeping control of inflation.
The April 1941 Budget saw increases to personal taxation that added two million new taxpayers and was the first time in British history that the majority of the population were liable for tax."
https://www.taxation.co.uk/articles/2011-09-21-280681-paye-story
When you research your family you might find they're listed in the workhouse. The workhouse was for paupers who could not find work. Attched to the workhouse was usually a hospital which was for people who could not pay for operations. The rich could always pay for their medical supplies, which often killed the women when they were young because they were covering their faces in makeup that was usually poisoning their systems. The money for these premises and money to pay for staff came from rich benefactors and local tax payers. Our ancestors have usually had to pay annual taxes, Surfing should find an online list of annual taxes due on such things as owning a pony or a gold watch, etc.
There has always been (unpaid) Parish Councils and then later on )unpaid) town councillors, usually business men or landed gentry (this changed last century - we now make sure they're not out of pocket) . You may have come across reports of new roads being laid. These roads were organised by the parish or town councillors and the minutes of the meetings usually state how much each household has to pay for the roads, or hospital. Often, the landed gentry donated land and the people paid their dues to the council to build the premises. These last few decades when an area NHS Trusts has decided to shut down and sell an old hospital, there's been a claim from families stating they want the building/land back in their possession as their ancestors gave the building/land on the condition it/they were used for local medical needs.
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The Caley closed about a year ago after several companies had a crack at it, no electric line into it was one of the problems, dunno who actually owns the site, folk used to say the Kirk?
At the moment the smashed train from the Stonehaven derailment is in there while the assessors decide what's salvageable. The operators they brought in couldn't work the cranes as it's a double lift for a loco/coach and some Caley men had to be brought back. ;D
There's still hope of finding a solution, fingers crossed.
Bests,
Skoosh.
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"Until the 1970s England had public hospitals paid for by local weekly penny contributions."
I wondered if this was just a slip in typing the date?
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"Until the 1970s England had public hospitals paid for by local weekly penny contributions."
I wondered if this was just a slip in typing the date?
I didn't explain myself properly. Whilst doing my fam. history I've come across a few different 19th century government dictats concerning working conditions and also of requirements that had to be provided such as educations, hospitals/health by local councils.
Ted Heath's government came into power in the 1970s and he wanted each area to have an extra hospital which would be equipped with the latest surgical equipment to met the needs of modern Britain. This is when the NHS Trusts came into being. I personally compare these NHS Trusts like somebody freezing to death; the first things to close down are the fingers and toes, then he limbs other organs start o close down - in an effort to save the heart of the person.
The NHS Trusts have all been closing down original hospital buildings to save the one main hospital building that should have been in the centre of a number of hospitals dotted about the area.
.Here is an example of a small market town's hospital which was built with money collected from the local people. You'll notice how many changes it has seen over the years.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=1372
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"Until the 1970s England had public hospitals paid for by local weekly penny contributions."
I wondered if this was just a slip in typing the date?
I didn't explain myself properly. Whilst doing my fam. history I've come across a few different 19th century government dictats concerning working conditions and also of requirements that had to be provided such as educations, hospitals/health by local councils.
Ted Heath's government came into power in the 1970s and he wanted each area to have an extra hospital which would be equipped with the latest surgical equipment to met the needs of modern Britain. This is when the NHS Trusts came into being. I personally compare these NHS Trusts like somebody freezing to death; the first things to close down are the fingers and toes, then he limbs other organs start o close down - in an effort to save the heart of the person.
The NHS Trusts have all been closing down original hospital buildings to save the one main hospital building that should have been in the centre of a number of hospitals dotted about the area.
.Here is an example of a small market town's hospital which was built with money collected from the local people. You'll notice how many changes it has seen over the years.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=1372
Trusts did not start under Heath, they were a much later creation 1990 to be precise with Foundation Trusts coming into being in 2004.
I started my 25 years in the NHS in 1974, at that time the hospital was managed by a Hospital Management Committee. They were each semi autonomous but Governed by a Regional Authority.
In the North West there was Salford HMC, Lancaster HMC, Royal Albert HMC, Blackpool HMC etc all reporting to the North West Regional Health Authority, Gateway House Manchester.
Elsewhere in England the NHS was organised in the same manner.
The HMC’s were reorganised and combined in the latter 70’s into larger Authorities and in the case of Lancashire a new tier was introduced between the Town based Authorities and the Regional Health Authority. Lancashire Area Health Authority were based in East Cliffe in Preston. Similar restructuring took place throughout England.
Then came Thatcher and yet more faffing about with the NHS, the disbanding of the mid tier Authorities and the closing of Regional Health Authorities and the local management becoming more self sufficient and reporting directly to London.
The formation of Trusts in 1990 gave the local hospital supposedly more accountability but they also created the Primary Care Trusts which were a total waste of time as they were a bureaucratic nightmare to administer and these eventually were phased out and the staff were put under the CQC banner and they themselves are a nightmare of an organisation. Imagine 50 people turning up at a hospital at the same time demanding that what they are doing takes priority over everything within the hospital, well that happens. Yes they pick up on underperforming hospitals but they under perform because they manage themselves, there is no central Governance, each Trust creates and manages their own.
Moving on in 2004 Foundation Trusts came about and this meant they became isolated and financially, ethically and clinically self governing, well as much as London allows. With Foundation Trusts came instructions from London that new builds had to what was a flawed Contract format resulting in excessive build costs and also the building of hospitals by private companies and the renting of the building at high rental costs for a minimum if 25 years of lease.
If you remember quite a few very large Companies went to the wall in the last 10 years as they over extended themselves in their NHS Contracts.
Now it is rampant privatisation of NHS services that is at the centre of all the Government interference. Centralisation of specialist services is also playing its part with Consultants increasing only dealing with their own speciality and passing the buck on to A.N. Other and all the lack of cohesive treatment that that entails.
Where our Daughter works as a Nurse there is a seriously ill patient and her hospital no longer has the Consultants who deal with the medical condition this patient has and as they are to ill to be transported the family have been told to expect the worst. How many ill patients are in this same situation?
To much Government messing around with our NHS, and I do not bkame the Tories, Blair and Brown were just as bad.
A certain Tory PM once gave the NHS an extra £4 billion, what they failed to say was that two years prior they had taken out £6 billion and and it happened in 2014 the £4 billion would be swallowed up in inflation so the net result was zero change. Trusts were all in a very delicate financial state except for senior management which bloomed in numbers each time a CEO changed.
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I personally compare these NHS Trusts like somebody freezing to death; the first things to close down are the fingers and toes, then he limbs other organs start o close down - in an effort to save the heart of the person.
The NHS Trusts have all been closing down original hospital buildings to save the one main hospital building that should have been in the centre of a number of hospitals dotted about the area.
.Here is an example of a small market town's hospital which was built with money collected from the local people. You'll notice how many changes it has seen over the years.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=1372
Trusts did not start under Heath, they were a much later creation 1990 to be precise with Foundation Trusts coming into being in 2004.
I started my 25 years in the NHS in 1974, at that time the hospital was managed by a Hospital Management Committee. They were each semi autonomous but Governed by a Regional Authority.
In the North West there was Salford HMC, Lancaster HMC, Royal Albert HMC, Blackpool HMC etc all reporting to the North West Regional Health Authority, Gateway House Manchester.
Elsewhere in England the NHS was organised in the same manner.
The HMC’s were reorganised and combined in the latter 70’s into larger Authorities and in the case of Lancashire a new tier was introduced between the Town based Authorities and the Regional Health Authority. Lancashire Area Health Authority were based in East Cliffe in Preston. Similar restructuring took place throughout England.
Then came Thatcher and yet more faffing about with the NHS, the disbanding of the mid tier Authorities and the closing of Regional Health Authorities and the local management becoming more self sufficient and reporting directly to London.
The formation of Trusts in 1990 gave the local hospital supposedly more accountability but they also created the Primary Care Trusts which were a total waste of time as they were a bureaucratic nightmare to administer and these eventually were phased out and the staff were put under the CQC banner and they themselves are a nightmare of an organisation. Imagine 50 people turning up at a hospital at the same time demanding that what they are doing takes priority over everything within the hospital, well that happens. Yes they pick up on underperforming hospitals but they under perform because they manage themselves, there is no central Governance, each Trust creates and manages their own.
Moving on in 2004 Foundation Trusts came about and this meant they became isolated and financially, ethically and clinically self governing, well as much as London allows. With Foundation Trusts came instructions from London that new builds had to what was a flawed Contract format resulting in excessive build costs and also the building of hospitals by private companies and the renting of the building at high rental costs for a minimum if 25 years of lease.
If you remember quite a few very large Companies went to the wall in the last 10 years as they over extended themselves in their NHS Contracts.
Now it is rampant privatisation of NHS services that is at the centre of all the Government interference. Centralisation of specialist services is also playing its part with Consultants increasing only dealing with their own speciality and passing the buck on to A.N. Other and all the lack of cohesive treatment that that entails.
Where our Daughter works as a Nurse there is a seriously ill patient and her hospital no longer has the Consultants who deal with the medical condition this patient has and as they are to ill to be transported the family have been told to expect the worst. How many ill patients are in this same situation?
To much Government messing around with our NHS, and I do not bkame the Tories, Blair and Brown were just as bad.
A certain Tory PM once gave the NHS an extra £4 billion, what they failed to say was that two years prior they had taken out £6 billion and and it happened in 2014 the £4 billion would be swallowed up in inflation so the net result was zero change. Trusts were all in a very delicate financial state except for senior management which bloomed in numbers each time a CEO changed.
Thanks for the corrections - which was quite a bit more detailed than the link I posted. I'm not surprised private companies went to the wall when dealing with health authorities. I know of quite a few incidents where my company has quoted for a job that should have taken not more than a couple of days , but due to the hospital's Estate maintenance workers being taken off the same shared job our workmen were tied up for three weeks. Purchase Orders from whatever hospital in the land showed an alarming number of departmental heads that had sight of orders prior to them being posted.
Frankly it's the same with all government departments. When the Isle of Dogs in London was cleared and built on to become the UK's new Financial Centre,many long standing companies in the building trade and who supp;lied the building trade went to the wall.
Rena