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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: TonyMcGartland on Wednesday 30 December 20 10:11 GMT (UK)
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When James Cameron (born 1886 Kinning Pk Glasgow) married in 1916 in Ireland the local papers reported the marriage and stated that his father John was deceased and from Beauly inverneshire. I haven't been able to find a death record for him but more interestingly is that also states his mother Ellen (Green) Cameron was living inTroon. It's possible that they were living there or she moved there when he died. Like John, I haven't been able to find a death notice.
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Ellen Green Cameron’s death is registered 1929 Dennistoun. age 70
Available on Scotlands People
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http://www.ancestryresearchservice.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1&tree=CameronDrogheda1
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Marriage for Ellen Green and John Cameron 1876 Rutherglen. Not sure if this is the correct couple.
The certificate from Scotlands People will likely give you information about the family of both parties.
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Ellen Green Cameron’s death is registered 1929 Dennistoun. age 70
Available on Scotlands People
Neale1961
Thank you so much. I signed up to SP and was able to see this, yes it is correct!
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Marriage for Ellen Green and John Cameron 1876 Rutherglen. Not sure if this is the correct couple.
The certificate from Scotlands People will likely give you information about the family of both parties.
Yes, I have this marriage certifate - thanks again
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Neale1961
Would you agree that the surname of the daughter mentioned as 'present at death' was
Bradley? If so, I will be able to follow this up
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Yes, I agree, daughter is Ellen Bradley.
Perhaps the marriage 1903 St Rollox for Ellen Cameron and William Bradley
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Marriage for Ellen Green and John Cameron 1876 Rutherglen. Not sure if this is the correct couple.
The certificate from Scotlands People will likely give you information about the family of both parties.
Yes, I have this marriage certifate - thanks again
Tony from the marriage certificate, can I ask what is John Cameron's age and parents names. If we know his birth details it might make it easier to find his death.
Also on his daughter's marriage in 1903, does it say that father is deceased?
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Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland, Electoral Registers - The Bradleys (Ellen and William) were living at Ardmaleish Street Glasgow in 1962 when I looked earlier.
Sandra
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Tony from the marriage certificate, can I ask what is John Cameron's age and parents names. If we know his birth details it might make it easier to find his death.
Reply 2 gave some details on ancestry research service.
http://www.ancestryresearchservice.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1&tree=CameronDrogheda1
Sandra
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Thank you Sandra and Neale1961.
When John Cameron married Ellen Green in 1876, he was 29yrs and she was 21yrs. They married in Rutherglen. When his son James Campbell Cameron was married in 1916, his father was recorded as deceased.
The reason I bring this to the Scottish forum is because Johns son James Campbell Cameron came to Ireland around 1911. He met Isabella Mooney b.1893 who was born in Dunbarton. They married in Drogheda in 1916. Prior to this they had two children who died at birth. In 1921 they had a son Alan James Campbell Cameron. However in 1927(fish) Alan went to live with his cousin and his parents James and Isabella were not heard of again. Alan was told they died young, his family think they seperated an went their separate ways.
My 12year search has never found any clues on Irish forums so I'm making one final search - maybe they returned to Scotland?
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John and family are in 1881 in Kinning Park. He claims he was born in Kirkhill which is next to Beauly. However, Cameron baptisms for that time in Kirkhill are pretty scarce maybe lost, never happened or with a Church other than the Church of Scotland.
Nor could I find his death in Lanarkshire using an est year of birth 1845 +/- 5 years so perhaps they moved to another county and he died there. Then again, I could not find Ellen/Elen in 1891 maybe they went to Ireland for a brief time.
Don
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Don, thank you for trying. Ireland is a possibility. When their son James married john was deceased and wife Ellen was living in Troon. She died 1929 in Glasgow
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Also on his daughter's marriage in 1903, does it say that father is deceased?
The reason I asked was to narrow down a time frame for John Cameron's death. Was it between children marriages between 1903 and 1916, or was it earlier than 1903.
The family is still in Kinning Park in 1891 Census, but I have not yet found them in 1901.
1891 census 80 Stanley Street, Kinning Park, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
John Cameron, Head, 35, Born Beauly Inverness, Horse shoe-er (He was a blacksmith in both 1871 & 1881 census)
Maggie Cameron, wife, 30 born Ireland (I think this must be Ellen – but a mistake made with name on census)
David Cameron, son, 13 born Kinning Park
Ellen Cameron, daughter , 11 born Kinning Park
John Cameron, son, 10 born Kinning Park
Maggie Cameron, daughter 6, born Kinning Park
James Cameron, son 5, born Kinning Park
Mathilda Cameron, daughter 10mnths born Glasgow
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Neale1961,
John was recorded as deceased on his daughters marriage cert. She married 31st Dec 1902 and the marriage registers in Jan 1903. He was last recorded in 1891 census so that narrows it down pretty much. I still haven't found him??
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Unfortunately his age on the various census returns is very elastic.
On his daughter’s marriage, where was the family living? Was the address in St Rollox, or was that the groom? Can you check?
The reason I ask...
There is a death for a John Cameron, age 46, in 1896 St Rollox. The age is about right, but it might not be him. There are a few other possible deaths in that period 1891-1902 in the Glasgow area. However, sometimes it is worth taking a punt on a hunch, but I don’t know how you feel about using up your credits on SP.
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Neale1961,
I purchased more credits and opened the 1896 file for St. Rollox, as his daughter was married in that district. John is recorded as a 'pauper' formerly a (looks like) Calendar Worker,single, illegitimate) so I am not sure - though the person mentioned under fathers name is Margaret Cameron - who subsequently married John Millar (deceased).
I then opened all BUT one and none of them were John - I ran out of credit with one left which was Died 1893.
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Tony, Sorry for sending you off on the wild goose chase. I was hoping the address for Ellen on her 1902 marriage might help find them in the 1901 census.
However I do believe I have found the family in 1901 (at least those that are still living with mother). It would help if mother "Ellen" would not keep changing her name.
1901 Census 113 Rose Street Hutchesontown, Glasgow.
Annie CAMERON head, 45 born Ireland
David CAMERON son 24 Cork cutter, born Glasgow
James CAMERON son 16 Wire worker apprentice, born Glasgow
John REID grandson 5 born Glasgow - (I wonder whose son? )
John C SMALL – 29 lodger
So they are in Hutchesontown. By any chance did you look at this death for John?
1891 CAMERON JOHN age 45
644/11 936 Hutchesontown
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Neale1961,
Happy New Year!
Thank you for this great bit of detective work, I will follow this up today.
Its interesting to see the inclusion of another family name with the grandson.
Another line begins......
Thanks
PS. I checked, it is not my John Cameron
Also a daughter of John Cameron, Jessie, married James Reid in 1894 and John was named as father and alive
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In trying to narrow down dates further for the death of John, the 1901 census for the family that Neale has posted would let you check for marital status for Annie/Ellen?
Monica
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He must have died between 1894 and 1901
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This seems a possible given the family were in Kinning Park for the 1891 census although age out again which seems a common occurrence?
CAMERON JOHN 58
1897
644/14 432 Kinning Park
Annie
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Tony and Neale,
Can I put up an alternative to the 1901 census? See this entry below in Falkirk. Helen born in Ireland, all the children in Glasgow:
Helen Cameron 39
John Cameron 19 lab
Maggie Cameron 17 outdoor worker
James Cameron 15 lab
William Cameron 6
Alexander Cameron 4
Address: Hall House, Falkirk, Stirlingshire
Monica
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Tony, just checking...
Have you come across this info on Helen Green's family. Nice photo of two of the Cameron girls (Moya and Jane Morrison Cameron. Jane liked to be known as Susan it seems).
http://mastelfamily.com/4th-gen-james-and-margaret/4592692780
Monica
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Have you come across this info on Helen Green's family. Nice photo of two of the Cameron girls (Moya and Jane Morrison Cameron. Jane liked to be known as Susan it seems).
http://mastelfamily.com/4th-gen-james-and-margaret/4592692780
Monica
Ooh, Monica that was a good find! Apart from giving the family in the Falkirk census in 1901, it explains other things i could not make sense of. I always wondered where the child Mathilda had gone after the 1891 census; also explains who Jean Morrison Cameron is- she was a witness at James Camerons wedding to Isabella.
So we are now looking for John’s death between 1895-1901 in a different location.
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Wish the birth reg for Alexander c. 1896-7 was easy to find! Too many to dip in really in Glasgow then. This could make John's death window c. 1896-1901.
I saw there were two deaths with mother showing as Green. Both in Kinning Park:
1880 John
1883 Alexander
Both names potentially resused with later births of sons.
I wonder if Ellen had to apply for poor relief?
Monica
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Monica and Neale
Not only was it a good find but I have lost contact with the author of this site, so now I can get back in touch with her again.
Matilda and susan were fostered by the cassidy family and moved to Dublin. Susan married Richard Moore a publican and Matilda married my wifes great uncle Dr. Patrick Rocj.
The story is coming full circle but apart from finding John's death, the mystery of James and Isabella still remains unsolved. Thanks so much.
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John, son James and his wife Isabella remain in hiding don't they :-\
Monica
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not likely - but putting it here
From Wills and Testaments on SP
John Cameron
19/1/1895
Blacksmith, Carr Bridge, County of Inverness, d. 01/12/1893 at Carr Bridge, intestate
Inverness Sheriff Court
SC29/44/29
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To be honest I would gladly pay £50 if anyone finds all three. I'm not joking!
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From Wills and Testaments on SP
John Cameron
19/1/1895
Blacksmith, Carr Bridge, County of Inverness, d. 01/12/1893 at Carr Bridge, intestate
Inverness Sheriff Court
SC29/44/29
Looks like that's him Neale1961
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I'm not convinced. Place is a long way off from Falkirk.
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There is one death in Duthill (I think this is the right district for Carrbridge) for a John Cameron in 1893. Age given is 78.
Monica
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Thanks Monica - I was trying to find that record. So age at death is not right.
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Tony, thinking of deaths you have viewed in your searches. Searching for a John Cameron, born 1850 +/- 5yrs who died in Glasgow between 1895-1901, brings up the following entries:
1895 Anderston
1896 St Rollox
1899 Dennistoun
1899 Tradeston
1900 Kelvin
Have you viewed any of these?
Monica
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This seems a possible given the family were in Kinning Park for the 1891 census although age out again which seems a common occurrence?
CAMERON JOHN 58
1897
644/14 432 Kinning Park
Annie
Tony, Did you look at this one that Annie suggested?
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The youngest child Alexander was born 1895 in Glasgow, so it makes sense to look close to there.
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I think it was William who was born in 1894 and Alexander c. 1896-7. Not sure if their birth certs have been confirmed yet?
Monica
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I'll check in morning thanks
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Well this has certainly turned into something strange.
Per my previous post I looked at many that include Kinning Park, Tradeston, Hutchesontown or Kelvin so don't waste your coin. That leaves 15 left in all of Lanarkshire.
Don
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I think it was William who was born in 1894 and Alexander c. 1896-7. Not sure if their birth certs have been confirmed yet?
Monica
Alexander, William and Matilda moved to Sydney and died there.
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With a surname like Cameron :'( I needed therapy after my MacDonalds!
Have found youngest Alexander's WW1 service papers. He gives mum (Mrs Cameron) and Troon address when he enlisted. Clip below. I think it 4 Collenan Terrace? Think he enlisted on 24/02/17 and showed as aged 21 and 76 days, so born Dec 1896?
He enlisted with the King's Own Scottish Borders, Reg No 29065
Of interest really is the confirmation of Ellen, mother, with a Troon address as detailed in the report of the wedding of son James in Dublin at this time.
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From the 1915 Valuation Rolls, maybe this entry for son John in Troon? Mother and younger siblings with him? Also showing there in 1920. Can't get anything for this address from there, maybe a change to street name?
JOHN CAMERON
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE COLLENAN TERRACE GILLIES STREET
DUNDONALD
1915
VR009000163-
Monica
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Very good MonicaL, the Troon address matches the marriage announcement in the newspapers. Alexander was born 10th Dec 1885.
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Have you been able to check Alexander's birth to see what it says about his father John on the registration? Which district was the birth in?
Monica
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I'm not sure if I've missed this info. having read over the thread a few times?
What were the names of John's parents on his marriage to Ellen?
I noted 2 of their children had surnames as middle names, Campbell & Morrison which seems a good indicator of one being possibly mms?
Annie
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Annie, Parents names have not been given, but from looking at the census I think they might be Alexander Cameron and Jane/ Janet Morrison - married 1837 Snizort.
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I was having a look at James siblings...
Susanna Cameron (aka Jean Morrison Cameron) married Richard Moore in 1917 Dublin. Parents named as John Cameron and Ellen Green address 4 Collenian Tce, Troon. Father’s profession is “Farmer” – does not mention he is deceased. Sister Moya (aka Matilda) is a witness.
(Church record & civil record transcript viewed)
Moya Cameron (aka Matilda Cameron) married Patrick Rock in 1921 Dublin. Father John Cameron is “tradesman” – does not mention he is deceased. (Civil Registration viewed)
Tony, in looking for what happened to James and Isabella, I think you will have to research the siblings on each side of the family. Maybe you have already done this. Do you want to put information about them here?
The family who went to Australia for instance - where, when, etc?
What about the family who remained in Ireland and Scotland?
Who was it in the family that Alan James Cameron was taken in by?
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Annie, Parents names have not been given, but from looking at the census I think they might be Alexander Cameron and Jane/ Janet Morrison - married 1837 Snizort.
Yes, this is correct
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Neale1961 and all,
I really appreciate the work you have done on this case but believe me, I have exhausted every avenue over 12yrs and despite many 'brick walls'i still hold out some hope.
I have met and spoken to siblings of the family that James grew up with and they told me that they died young. However, no death records have been found.
When Dr.Patrick Rock died his wife Moya/Matilda emigrated to Sydney. She is buried in Sydney with her brother Alexander.
I have carried out Australian searches also but found nothing on them. The children of Alan Cameron said that their dad never talked about his parents and they thought their may be a reason why he didn't.
Finally I have just found a small photograph of Alan - it is probably taken around 1926-27 and on the back it says 'To daddy xxx'. There is no mention of mum.
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Does the 1901 census state Ellen is a widow?
The reason I ask is the fact John hasn't been recorded as 'Deceased' on the Irish marriages.
Annie
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Tony, in looking for what happened to James and Isabella, I think you will have to research the siblings on each side of the family. Maybe you have already done this. Do you want to put information about them here?
The family who went to Australia for instance - where, when, etc?
What about the family who remained in Ireland and Scotland?
Who was it in the family that Alan James Cameron was taken in by?
Here is a thought.....
James and isabella married June 1916 and had a child in aug 1916 in Cork that died 3months. This was followed by a child who died 1918 at birth in Belfast. Based on her problems with having children could she have died while giving birth to Alan in 1921? Leaving James unable to cope alone?
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The reason I ask is the fact John hasn't been recorded as 'Deceased' on the Irish marriages.
Annie
Patrick Rock's marriage to Moya Cameron shows John Cameron as father in Feb 1921 - no mention of deceased, so I presume he was alive then.
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But does Ellen state she's a widow in 1901 which would be more accurate than a child who didn't live with her parents?
Annie
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Sister Margaret was the first to head off to NSW? https://clan-cameron.org.au/genealogy/familygroup.php?familyID=F35511&tree=cameron1
With so many heading of them (Ellen, William, Alexander and Moya and Margaret it seems) heading off to Australia, there is always the possibility that James too headed off there in the period following Alan's birth. I am sure that you have exhausted your searches there though.
Monica
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Patrick Rock's marriage to Moya Cameron shows John Cameron as father in Feb 1921 - no mention of deceased, so I presume he was alive then.
I think it's possible Moya didn't know & probably left blank in the absence of that knowledge?
Annie
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When James Cameron (born 1886 Kinning Pk Glasgow) married in 1916 in Ireland the local papers reported the marriage and stated that his father John was deceased and from Beauly inverneshire. I haven't been able to find a death record for him but more interestingly is that also states his mother Ellen (Green) Cameron was living inTroon. It's possible that they were living there or she moved there when he died. Like John, I haven't been able to find a death notice.
Sorry I'm back at your opening question as I was about to read through everything again to see what we've missed?
I think what we're missing which has been mentioned, James was last born i.e. can you please transcribe the details of address & John's occupation & who registered the birth from his BC?
For others following a connected post for reference..
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=733716.0
Annie