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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: AlanR83 on Thursday 31 December 20 08:09 GMT (UK)
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My Ancestor Cornelius Sweeney married a Mary Hallihane in Castlehaven, Skibbereen Union on July 17, 1865. The bride was from Castlehaven and listed her father name and occupation on the marriage cert but Cornelius leaves the section for his father name & occupation blank. I was wondering what is more likely in 1865 that this means he was an orphan or that he was raised by a mother and Sweeney is his mother's surname?
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On Anc I can see a Mary Hullihane marrying a Cornelius Sweeny on that date and place. Her father's name is Timothy Hullihane.
Without being able to see a copy of the certificate it is difficult to say whether your suppositions are correct. Have you got a copy or seen the original in the parish records?
Have you found his death certificate? From that you should be able to get an age and then look for a birth. Parish priests at the time of a baptism were fairly unflinching as far as far as noting whether a child was illegitimate.
More usual may be that his father died while he was very young and he had no idea what his name had been.
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Where is Cornelius from according to the marriage certificate?
I have found a birth certificate for a Mary Houlihane dau of Timothy Houlihane and Bridget Doody 17/11/1833 in the parish of Fermoy* Cork and across the top of the entry is written 'illegitimate'. Not sure if it applies to her birth or to the one above. Spons are Patrick Hely and Hanora Higgins.
*Anc has Mallow, Cork.
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Marriage 1865
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1865/11585/8263547.pdf
KG
Edited to Add:
Cornelius residing in Skibbereen
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yes KG - 'residing' an important point
Also this will be a handwritten copy taken from Church register. It does not mean that C did not know but stranger things have happened than the priest losing/mislaying a piece of paper that the details had been written on.
Age at death of Cornelius and/or any census ages along the way will be able to search for possible births.
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I don't have an age for Cornelius, his age on marriage cert was listed just as Full Age, I do know that in 1894 when his daughter (My Great Grandmother) Mary Ellen McSweeney married Abraham Smith, she lists him on the Marriage cert as deceased and that his occupation was a Harness Maker / Saddler. I have no other information on Cornelius other than that. I do know that Mary Ellen did not have any siblings and by all accounts did not have any family by the time she married - which would make sense if her father was an orphan.
His Wife Mary Halihane, daughter of Timothy Halihane was from Castlehaven, I have information concerning the Halihane side of my ancestry from Skibbereen Loan Database
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Have you located the birth certificate for Mary Ellen? Was Cornelius still alive then? So between 1865 and 1894 Cornelius dies. When did Mary Houlihane Sweeney die? Who was the informant?
We all lose our parents at some stage and technically, sadly, I guess that makes us all orphans. He may have been estranged from his family at the time of his marriage. His father may have died young. I am sure he will have family there.
Another clue about possible names for a father or other members is to look at the names of the children. You say there was only one, Mary Ellen. My gt grandfather also used to say that he was an only child but I have since found a brother and a sister.
I would still keep searching for other children. Anyway you can look at childrens' names and then see a possible link to older generations by looking at Irish naming patterns.
Being a saddler/harness maker is quite a skilled occupation. Do you know where the family lived after the marriage? He could be employed in a small town, attached to a large estate and possibly have learned his trade in the Army. If he was attached to a large estate some of the estate records have been deposited in various public institutions and can be searched. His father may have been a saddler?
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This is the birth cert for Mary Ellen in 1866:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03524/2296727.pdf
I know nothing else for certain, this could be the death cert for her mother but not certain:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1872/020722/7270744.pdf
If this is the death cert for Mary, then it says she was married not a widow which means Cornelius was still alive in 1872.
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Glad to see that the birth of Mary Sweeny was one I had noted myself as being a likely one.
Mary Sweeny 10/5/1866 where Cornelius is stated as living at North Street. Father Cornelius (living) mother Mary, the informant also living.
Possible death certificate 13/8/1872 for Mary Sweeny has her occupation as servant and she died from a ruptured uterus - a condition associated with maternity or childbirth so she was either pregnant or giving birth at the time of her death.
Abraham Smyth and Mary Mc Sweeney (NB Mc) were married on 1/8/1893 at Springhill Chapel and Michael Flynn and Mary Sullivan are the witnesses.
Mary's address is Richmond Cottage.
Have you searched for this address?
Possible other children to this couple may be between 1866 & 1872.
So a 6 year old with a widowed father.
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Yes, she was working as a servant for a Protestant Vicar in Glanmire - Richmond Cottage, how she ended up in Glanmire from Skibbereen I have no idea.
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High Street where Mary possibly died and North street where they were living when Mary was born are close streets in centre of Skibereen. The person who reported the death Mary Burk/e also lived in High Street. She may have been a neighbour, relative, family friend or an older woman who helped in childbirth ie midwife.
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Yes, she was working as a servant for a Protestant Vicar in Glanmire - Richmond Cottage, how she ended up in Glanmire from Skibbereen I have no idea.
Call of the big city? Or perhaps she was placed there in an institution/orphanage by family after both parents died? Then got a job in the same area.
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I have found a birth certificate for a Mary Houlihane dau of Timothy Houlihane and Bridget Doody 17/11/1833 in the parish of Fermoy* Cork and across the top of the entry is written 'illegitimate'. Not sure if it applies to her birth or to the one above. Spons are Patrick Hely and Hanora Higgins.
*Anc has Mallow, Cork.
Is this the correct birth certificate for Mary ie was she born 1833 and therefor 31/32 when she married? and 6 years older according to the death certificate you have found that gives her age as 29. If the 1833 cert is correct then her age would be closer to 39yrs and not 29yrs and 39 is a more dangerous time for a woman to be giving birth ie older mother etc.
The other idea I had is that Cornelius may have left Mary to be brought up with family or in an institution as a child, more or less deserted her and she may have had no idea whether he was living or dead but saying he was dead forestalls any intrusive questions.
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I've just checked all the civil death certs for Cornelius McSweeney / Sweeney from 1873 - 1893, and there is only 1 I found which matches as a Widower, but it says he was 63 in 1885 which would put him at 44 when he married a 20 year old Servant girl in 1865, see link below:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1885/06282/4799925.pdf
I can't make out what his occupation on death cert is listed as?
I have not found a baptism record for Mary Hallihane, but I presumed as she was born in Castlehaven sometime around the 1840's to a poor labourer - Tim Halihane, it may have been a time when due to famine (etc), records were just not kept.
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Tim Hallahane is listed in the parish of Castlehaven in 1846, on the Skibbereen Loan Database:
https://skibbheritage.com/genealogy/loan-records-database/
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Timothy Hallahan is listed on Griffiths (1852) as leasing a house from Cornelius Buckley, in the townland of Inane in Castlehaven.
Have you got anything to verify that Mary Hallahan was 20 at the time of her marriage? The death cert looks to say 27 or 29 but the daughter born to Timothy Hallahan was born in 1833. That would make her 31 or 32 at the time of her marriage. This would fit in with a husband 8-10 years older.
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https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1885/06282/4799925.pdf
I can't make out what his occupation on death cert is listed as?
Pig buyer I think. So if this is the father he was in Cork at a similar time 1885 cf 1893 as his daughter.
He died at 4 Boyce's Street in Cork.
The nurse puts her address as Ballymacthomas which is the suburb that Boyce's St is in.
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Just located the church record (Skibbereen) on Irish Genealogy for the birth of Mary Ellen Sweeny at North Street on 13/5/1866 and it shows her sponsors as being Timothy Hallihane and Catherine Hallihane. Not sure if Timothy & Catherine were Mary Snr's parents or if Timothy was and Catherine is a sister or somesuch. I am now looking for a birth to Timothy and Catherine rather than Timothy and Bridget Doody/Droody Hallihane - this was the 1833 birth.
Big age differences were not uncommon. Often the wife was older too. Widowers with young children were encouraged to marry again.
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Here is a possible baptism record for Mary Hallahan Sweeny (from Ancestry)
Name: Mary Hallahan
Baptism Date: 4 Feb 1840
Baptism Place: Murragh, Cork, Ireland
Diocese: Cork and Ross
Father: Timothy Hallahan
Mother: Catharine Murphy
This would make her about 24/25 at the time of her marriage and therefore 30/31 at the the time of her death and this tallies better with the age on the death record you posted earlier.
We're still looking for Cornelius but the death you found may not be untoward as far as age difference
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I don't think the 1833 birth is relevant to my ancestors, Timothy Halihane was a poor labourer in Skibbereen it makes no sense he would have a child as far away as in Fermoy parish. I did find a baptism record for a Catherine Halihane born to Timothy in Castlehaven in 1842:
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/9945cc0123574?b=https%3A%2F%2Fchurchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fsearch.jsp%3Fnamefm%3DCatherine%26namel%3DHalihane%26exact%3D%26name2fm%3D%26name2l%3D%26location%3D%26yyfrom%3D1840%26yyto%3D1850%26diocese%3DCORK%2520%2526%2520ROSS%2520%2528RC%2529%26parish%3DCASTLEHAVEN%2520%2526%2520MYROSS%26century%3D%26decade%3D%26sort%3Ddate%26pageSize%3D100%26ddBfrom%3D%26ddMfrom%3D%26ddDfrom%3D%26mmBfrom%3D%26mmMfrom%3D%26mmDfrom%3D%26yyBfrom%3D%26yyMfrom%3D%26yyDfrom%3D%26ddBto%3D%26ddMto%3D%26ddDto%3D%26mmBto%3D%26mmMto%3D%26mmDto%3D%26yyBto%3D%26yyMto%3D%26yyDto%3D%26locationB%3D%26locationM%3D%26locationD%3D%26keyword%3D%26member0%3D%26member1%3D%26member2%3D%26member3%3D%26member4%3D%26member5%3D%26member6%3D%26member7%3D%26member8%3D%26member9%3D%26namef0%3D%26namef1%3D%26namef2%3D%26namef3%3D%26namef4%3D%26namef5%3D%26namef6%3D%26namef7%3D%26namef8%3D%26namef9%3D%26namel0%3D%26namel1%3D%26namel2%3D%26namel3%3D%26namel4%3D%26namel5%3D%26namel6%3D%26namel7%3D%26namel8%3D%26namel9%3D%26event%3D%26submit%3DSearch
and the mother is listed as Burke, which was also the surname of the woman present at Mary Sweeney's death in 1872 - perhaps an Aunt or Cousin of hers
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I don't think the 1833 birth is relevant to my ancestors, Timothy Halihane was a poor labourer in Skibbereen it makes no sense he would have a child as far away as in Fermoy parish. I did find a baptism record for a Catherine Halihane born to Timothy in Castlehaven in 1842:
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and the mother is listed as Burke, which was also the surname of the woman present at Mary Sweeney's death in 1872 - perhaps an Aunt or Cousin of hers
But if Catherine comes into it is as the mother of Mary Hallahan Sweeney or Mary Ellen's Grandmother or Tim's wife. Or did you mean as possible sister/sponsor to Mary Snr?
Take your point about Fermoy etc.
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I think Catherine may be a sister to Mary Hallihane who married Cornelius Sweeney, so their father is Timothy Halihane, Castlehaven poor labourer and their mother was Johanna Burke, and when Mary Sweeny died in 1872 an Aunt or cousin on the Burke side was present at the death.
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Well the Catherine you have found cannot be the Catherine on the 1840 birth certificate as this Catherine was not born until later....1842.
While Timothy may have been a labourer he had his own house that he rented and did not live in a tenements in the towns as some of his compatriots did. The impact of and faith in religion was very important to these folk and they would be most unlikely to miss baptising a child etc. These would have been recorded by the priests and it is what happened to them since (lost, decayed etc) that makes births hard to find not that they missed a baptism etc.
Anyway back to Cornelius following up on a birth that links to a death in 1885 aged 63 there are quite a few couple on Ancestry!
Cornelius Sweeny
Event Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 31 Dec 1820
Baptism Place: Mallow, Cork, Ireland
Diocese: Cloyne
Father: Thos Sweeny
Mother: Cath Fogarty
A possible second marriage only put in as the wife has the name Leary and there was a Cornelius Leahy/Leay (with Denis McCarthy) who were witnesses at the marriage in 1865.
Cornelius Sweeny
Gender: Male
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 17 Feb 1874
Marriage Place: Macroom, Ireland, Ireland
Diocese: Cloyne
Spouse: Johanna Leary
Having a look at the dog licence registrations, also on Ancestry, could be useful as I would have thought a pig buyer would have a dog.
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Are you certain the occupation says Pig Buyer, I think i'll post it on the Handwriting section just to confirm. Why would a pig Buyer be living on Boyce's Stret in the centre of Cork City? surely that is a rural based job.
By the way I checked the Griffith's Valuation and there is a Mary Sweeny listed on North Street in 1853 & there is a Cornelius Sweeney listed as living at DEELISH, ABBEYSTROWRY Parish which is only a few km's from North Street
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Are you certain the occupation says Pig Buyer, I think i'll post it on the Handwriting section just to confirm. Why would a pig Buyer be living on Boyce's Stret in the centre of Cork City? surely that is a rural based job.
By the way I checked the Griffith's Valuation and there is a Mary Sweeny listed on North Street in 1853 & there is a Cornelius Sweeney listed as living at DEELISH, ABBEYSTROWRY Parish which is only a few km's from North Street
That may have been his occupation before he was ill. It looks as though he was paralysed for 2.5 years before death and was possibly in a nursing home in Boyce's street so he could be looked after.
That is how I took it anyway.
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do you know was Pig Buyer a lucrative occupation? could it be his private house and he could afford a nurse?
Also I checked Cemetery records for St Finbar's & St Joseph's online - he's not listed as buried in either, would you have any idea what other cemeteries are close to Boyce's Street?
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All I know about pig buying is that it is an essential and specialist rural occupation. Many stock buyers work on commission locating good stock for breeding for (pig) farmers or selling good fattened stock to be killed. Pig buyers were also employed by abattoirs. Stock buyers have a superior knowledge of stock and breeding. Market days were an essential part of the life of many towns/cities with stock or products brought in to be bought & sold. Some towns had special butter, animal, poultry markets held regularly. Often the cheese market was held indoors. The centre of many towns had a square or market place where these markets were held.
In Griffiths in Boyces St, psh of St Mary Shandon, a Morgan Sweeny leased a house, offices and yard from Patrick Sullivan valued at GBP4 15shillings. Catherine Nagle also have had a family dwelling there and she may be related to the Nurse Nagle on the death certificate. These were classed as tenements.
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Are you certain the occupation says Pig Buyer, I think i'll post it on the Handwriting section just to confirm.
Definitely pig buyer.
There was a large cattle market in Cork city just north of Boyces Street.....probably also bought and sold pigs.
See http://map.geohive.ie/mapviewer.html
Also see this thread- https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=842187.0
KG
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Thanks KG