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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Iain... on Wednesday 06 January 21 09:26 GMT (UK)

Title: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Iain... on Wednesday 06 January 21 09:26 GMT (UK)
Good morning All.  Happy New Year. 

A quick question if I may.  Can someone tell me if the writer of this page is left or right-handed ?  Probably written in the 1820s. 

Thanks in Advance.  Stay safe…, Iain. 
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: mckha489 on Wednesday 06 January 21 09:28 GMT (UK)
My vote is Right.  In my experience  left handed people tend to slope their characters backward
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Nanna52 on Wednesday 06 January 21 09:33 GMT (UK)
I agree completely with Mckha489.  Right handed.
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Iain... on Wednesday 06 January 21 09:34 GMT (UK)
Thanks Mckha...  Yes, odds were that you are correct. 
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Gone on Wednesday 06 January 21 09:47 GMT (UK)
I'm left handed but my writing slopes forward.
From my experience, a lot of left handed people's writing is exactly the same as a right handed person.
From an early age, I learned to write "correctly" or get a wack across the back of my hand with a ruler by the teacher.
One even tried to make all left handed pupils write with the right hand.
There are exceptions of course   :D

Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Iain... on Wednesday 06 January 21 09:47 GMT (UK)
Thank you Nanna…

I’ve just written a book about him and my Regiment at Waterloo. (Part-1) 

PM on the Sunday and Matthew is upstairs in the gardener’s house in the Hougoumont chateau-farm.  He’s firing through a hole recently made by a howitzer and on the other side of the hole is one of his Sergeants. 
I’m now writing Part-2 and ‘I want him to spot something on the right.’  If he was left-handed, he’d have his musket to the left, meaning he’d be firing from the right side of the hole. (so, observing left)  Logic…, unless of course his Sgt was also ‘left-handed.’

Lol…, back to the drawing board.  I’ll just have to have him being extremely vigilant. 

Thanks All.  …, Iain.   

--------------------
This is a CORRECTION:

Hi All..., lol.  I'm obviously too tired.  If he was right handed and his Sgt left handed, then Matthew would be on the left side of the hole while looking right.   


Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Iain... on Wednesday 06 January 21 09:50 GMT (UK)
I'm left handed but my writing slopes forward.
From my experience, a lot of left handed people's writing is exactly the same as a right handed person.
From an early age, I learned to write "correctly" or get a wack across the back of my hand with a ruler by the teacher.
One even tried to make all left handed pupils write with the right hand.
There are exceptions of course   :D

Wow...  That's interesting !
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Nanna52 on Wednesday 06 January 21 10:05 GMT (UK)
In days gone by there was not the attention given to left handlers that is today.  My father was left handed, made to write with his right hand.  In the army during WW2 he shot right handed.  No allowances made for lefties.
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: majm on Wednesday 06 January 21 10:06 GMT (UK)
My husband writes right handed,  draws right handed,  eats left handed, plays tennis left handed and did his CMF as a left handed... CMF as in Citizens Military Force,  the 1960s Australian alternative to National Service .... so he fired blank ammunition as a left handed soldier.

JM
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 06 January 21 10:09 GMT (UK)
It's most likely right handed but my writing is very similar and I'm very left handed. I learnt to write like that by putting the paper sloping slightly to the right.

Add - I hate to see lefties (and some righties) holding a pen in a type of fist position.  I hold a pen in exactly the same way as the normal right hand position.

Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: BumbleB on Wednesday 06 January 21 10:14 GMT (UK)
It's most likely right handed but my writing is very similar and I'm very left handed. I learnt to write like that by putting the paper sloping slightly to the right.

Ditto for me. 

Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: oldfashionedgirl on Wednesday 06 January 21 10:15 GMT (UK)
Surely in 1820 no one would have been ‘allowed’ to be left handed ?

My OH wasn’t allowed in the 1950s, he writes with his right as he was made to do so but he never really develop a good hand and his writing is terrible. He does everything else with his left.
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Gone on Wednesday 06 January 21 10:16 GMT (UK)
I'm left handed but my writing slopes forward.
From my experience, a lot of left handed people's writing is exactly the same as a right handed person.
From an early age, I learned to write "correctly" or get a wack across the back of my hand with a ruler by the teacher.
One even tried to make all left handed pupils write with the right hand.
There are exceptions of course   :D

Wow...  That's interesting !
Being left handed was very much frowned upon so we had to adapt to be able to use things. With writing, because a leftie pushes the pen across the page, the pens we used dug in and were almost impossible to use, so you'll find a lot of older lefties curl their hand round over the top of the line being written so we can pull the pen  instead of push, and it prevents smudging.
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Iain... on Wednesday 06 January 21 10:26 GMT (UK)
Lol…  ‘Oh my goodness.’ 
Very interesting and more complicated than I thought. (please note that I just corrected my firing position post.  Seems like he could have been on the left side of the hole)

Anyway, it’s not a correct science as gadget said.  The ‘aim’ is simply to maintain some logic. 

…, Iain. 
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Iain... on Wednesday 06 January 21 10:28 GMT (UK)
Surely in 1820 no one would have been ‘allowed’ to be left handed ?

My OH wasn’t allowed in the 1950s, he writes with his right as he was made to do so but he never really develop a good hand and his writing is terrible. He does everything else with his left.

Lol...   I was a Piper in the Regiment and I have a collection of old photos of pipers taken following the invention of the camera.  You cannot imagine the number of pipers who have the drones over the right shoulder instead of the left.
Please note that I have a photo of Clay.   
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Gone on Wednesday 06 January 21 10:31 GMT (UK)
Lol…  ‘Oh my goodness.’ 
Very interesting and more complicated than I thought. (please note that I just corrected my firing position post.  Seems like he could have been on the left side of the hole)

Anyway, it’s not a correct science as gadget said.  The ‘aim’ is simply to maintain some logic. 

…, Iain. 

In the deepest, darkest past, being a leftie was associated with witchcraft, so a few of us would have in in serious trouble 🙃
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Iain... on Wednesday 06 January 21 10:36 GMT (UK)
I would like thank everyone…, very interesting.

Proof of my appreciation is this page from my book. (bottom two lines)

Kind ReGuards…, Iain. 
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Rena on Wednesday 06 January 21 11:03 GMT (UK)
I've just discarded my original response - as rootschat informed me somebody else had just  posted.   Ref the handwriting, I agree with the majority.

In the era of Waterloo, the majority of people couldn't write, and I doubt the sergeant major would have allowed anyone to be different on the parade ground. The men would have been drilled and nobody would have been allowed to jerk the wrong elbow when following routine, otherwise they'd be peeling spuds or some such punishment.  I'm left handed, my handwriting leans forward - at school I was handed a right-handed hockey stick and our teacher had us fall into a line practising "dribble, dribble, dribble, hit"; "dribble, dribble, dribble, hit".   "You girl, not like that, do as you're told"

My lefthanded dad was forced to use his right hand and had beautiful ambidextrous handwriting. The beauty of being ambidestrous (through necessity) is that you can use tools with either hand.  both of us can mirror write and don't think we can't read something because it's upside down lol.   So I think your chap could use his rifle EXPERTLY with either hand.
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Gone on Wednesday 06 January 21 11:59 GMT (UK)
I've just discarded my original response - as rootschat informed me somebody else had just  posted.   Ref the handwriting, I agree with the majority.

In the era of Waterloo, the majority of people couldn't write, and I doubt the sergeant major would have allowed anyone to be different on the parade ground. The men would have been drilled and nobody would have been allowed to jerk the wrong elbow when following routine, otherwise they'd be peeling spuds or some such punishment.  I'm left handed, my handwriting leans forward - at school I was handed a right-handed hockey stick and our teacher had us fall into a line practising "dribble, dribble, dribble, hit"; "dribble, dribble, dribble, hit".   "You girl, not like that, do as you're told"

My lefthanded dad was forced to use his right hand and had beautiful ambidextrous handwriting. The beauty of being ambidestrous (through necessity) is that you can use tools with either hand.  both of us can mirror write and don't think we can't read something because it's upside down lol.   So I think your chap could use his rifle EXPERTLY with either hand.
It's still illegal to use a left handed hockey stick in official competition according to FIH rules.
And I seem to remember hearing some years ago it was illegal to even own one.
Griff
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Rena on Wednesday 06 January 21 14:05 GMT (UK)
at school I was handed a right-handed hockey stick and our teacher had us fall into a line practising "dribble, dribble, dribble, hit"; "dribble, dribble, dribble, hit".   "You girl, not like that, do as you're told"

My lefthanded dad was forced to use his right hand and had beautiful ambidextrous handwriting. The beauty of being ambidestrous (through necessity) is that you can use tools with either hand.  both of us can mirror write and don't think we can't read something because it's upside down lol.   So I think your chap could use his rifle EXPERTLY with either hand.

It's still illegal to use a left handed hockey stick in official competition according to FIH rules.
And I seem to remember hearing some years ago it was illegal to even own one.
Griff

It's still illegal for this to happen but it does - and often:
A player will not be allowed to swing at the ball with the stick above the shoulder. Any violation of this rule modification will result in a misconduct penalty of a yellow card and minimum five-minute suspension.
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Iain... on Wednesday 06 January 21 15:41 GMT (UK)
I've just discarded my original response - as rootschat informed me somebody else had just  posted.   Ref the handwriting, I agree with the majority.

In the era of Waterloo, the majority of people couldn't write, and I doubt the sergeant major would have allowed anyone to be different on the parade ground. The men would have been drilled and nobody would have been allowed to jerk the wrong elbow when following routine, otherwise they'd be peeling spuds or some such punishment.  I'm left handed, my handwriting leans forward - at school I was handed a right-handed hockey stick and our teacher had us fall into a line practising "dribble, dribble, dribble, hit"; "dribble, dribble, dribble, hit".   "You girl, not like that, do as you're told"

So I think your chap could use his rifle EXPERTLY with either hand.

Wow…, I’m learning more than I bargained for here. (lol)

Rena…, Hi. 
I certainly agree that when on parade, turbans would never have been allowed to replace bearskins as they do today.  However, when in the field, (like today) things were different.  For example, when in hand-to-hand combat and when the adrenalin is brim-full, no Sergeant Majors’ orders would be heeded when deciding which fist to use first.   
In the same way, if a soldier finds himself shooting from a large hole in a wall, it’s not basic training that tells him to ‘cover’ his body-parts when firing.  That’s simply common logic, whether being left, or right-handed.

In the meantime, I was convinced that it was not the slope of writing that determined right-handedness.  I thought ‘down strokes’ (for example) being thick at the top or bottom, (for example) could be used in a Court-of-Law when differentiating the writing between two potential criminals. 
Apparently not…, as I’m conversing with specialists.   

Lol…, no left-handed hockey sticks.  Now-now Ladies…   
Amazing !   Doesn’t this enter the racist, sexism and other diverse categories of unfair treatment and discrimination. 
Hmmm…, I can see all you all finding yourselves on the BBC soon. 

Thanks all… 
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Iain... on Wednesday 06 January 21 15:51 GMT (UK)
Lol..., felt like I needed to update my above image... 

Thanks all...
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: artifis on Wednesday 06 January 21 16:19 GMT (UK)
There weren't any left handed muskets or rifles at the battle of Waterloo time, the firing mechanism - flint lock - was located on the right hand side of the barrel as shown in the illustration with the frizzen tipped forward exposing the priming pan exposed.  The flash from the flint striking the frizzen plate and setting off the small gun power priming charge in the pan would be away from the soldier's face and eyes.  If a left handed soldier fired the musket or rifle from his left shoulder her was likely to be temporarily or permanently blinded in his left eye and have that side of his face scorched or burnt!
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Rena on Wednesday 06 January 21 16:55 GMT (UK)
There weren't any left handed muskets or rifles at the battle of Waterloo time, the firing mechanism - flint lock - was located on the right hand side of the barrel as shown in the illustration with the frizzen tipped forward exposing the priming pan exposed.  The flash from the flint striking the frizzen plate and setting off the small gun power priming charge in the pan would be away from the soldier's face and eyes.  If a left handed soldier fired the musket or rifle from his left shoulder her was likely to be temporarily or permanently blinded in his left eye and have that side of his face scorched or burnt!

Congratulations on spotting  that the musket was the deliberate mistake  :D
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Treetotal on Wednesday 06 January 21 22:40 GMT (UK)
It's most likely right handed but my writing is very similar and I'm very left handed. I learnt to write like that by putting the paper sloping slightly to the right.

Add - I hate to see lefties (and some righties) holding a pen in a type of fist position.  I hold a pen in exactly the same way as the normal right hand position.

I too am left handed and would agree with Gadget as I do the same, my Daughter is also left handed and curls her hand towards her wrist with the pen held between index and middle fingers, it looks very odd.

Carol
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Gone on Wednesday 06 January 21 22:46 GMT (UK)
It's most likely right handed but my writing is very similar and I'm very left handed. I learnt to write like that by putting the paper sloping slightly to the right.

Add - I hate to see lefties (and some righties) holding a pen in a type of fist position.  I hold a pen in exactly the same way as the normal right hand position.

I too am left handed and would agree with Gadget as I do the same, my Daughter is also left handed and curls her hand towards her wrist with the pen held between index and middle fingers, it looks very odd.

Carol
When I was a nipper, I used to look on in envy at one classmate who had a left handed nib for his fountain pen, like an ordinary one except the end curled round to the left so he could hold the pen normally and write, pulling the pen across the page instead of pushing it.
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Iain... on Thursday 07 January 21 08:21 GMT (UK)
There weren't any left handed muskets or rifles at the battle of Waterloo time, the firing mechanism - flint lock - was located on the right hand side of the barrel as shown in the illustration with the frizzen tipped forward exposing the priming pan exposed.  The flash from the flint striking the frizzen plate and setting off the small gun power priming charge in the pan would be away from the soldier's face and eyes.  If a left handed soldier fired the musket or rifle from his left shoulder her was likely to be temporarily or permanently blinded in his left eye and have that side of his face scorched or burnt!

Hi Artifis…, interesting. 

In the meantime, even today’s rifles are not made for the left-handed, but you make a good point about the flash-in-the-pan. (or for that matter, modern-day ejecting cartridges)   
However, if firing from the left shoulder and with the firing elbow raised to withstand the recoil, the chin is well back along the butt.  At the same time, whether it’s the left or right arm that holds the weight, the forearm is vertical and should be distanced from the pan.     

However, you raise an excellent point, as changing shoulders must influence the eyes. 
If you point to a nearby object, then close your left eye, your finger should still be on the object. (the target)  However, if it moves, then a dominant left eye would influence the aim.   

I have over 600 Facebook Brigade friends…, I’ll ask them.  One of them is a former Welsh Guardsman and he’s a Sergeant in the Coldstream Guards re-enactment group.  I’ll drop him a line and keep you updated. 

Thanks Artifis…

PS  Lol…, concerning the annexed image, I cheated ! 
I reversed the image and as you can see, the face is well to the rear. 
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: artifis on Thursday 07 January 21 11:51 GMT (UK)
I see what you mean about the head/eye being further back.  When Sharpes Rifles was on the tele I read up a bit about the Rifles brigades and remember reading that soldiers using both muskets and Rifles did have gunpowder marks on their faces so there must have been some explosion debris from the priming pan coming back into their faces.. I also seem to remember reading that not only were the rifle barrels shorter than musket barrels but also that the stocks were to which would bring the soldier's faces closer to the flintlock mechanism - I'll try and find out for sure.

Either way the muskets and rifles were designed to be used by right handed soldiers as were all the drills as said above.

When my father was an apprentice plumber in the 1920s he like all other such were sent to get left handed screwdrivers, hammers etc.  He got his own back once though when sent for a left handed rip hook, he went to the big specialist tool supplier in the town and was able to actually get a left handed one much to the embarrassment and leg pulling of the guy who's sent him.  There were other left handed tools too, bricklayer's trowels for instance where the hardened edge was on the other side - I always assumed they were symmetrically hardened until I found that out, may be different nowadays though when left handedness is totally accepted.
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: Gone on Thursday 07 January 21 13:58 GMT (UK)
I see what you mean about the head/eye being further back.  When Sharpes Rifles was on the tele I read up a bit about the Rifles brigades and remember reading that soldiers using both muskets and Rifles did have gunpowder marks on their faces so there must have been some explosion debris from the priming pan coming back into their faces.. I also seem to remember reading that not only were the rifle barrels shorter than musket barrels but also that the stocks were to which would bring the soldier's faces closer to the flintlock mechanism - I'll try and find out for sure.

Either way the muskets and rifles were designed to be used by right handed soldiers as were all the drills as said above.

When my father was an apprentice plumber in the 1920s he like all other such were sent to get left handed screwdrivers, hammers etc.  He got his own back once though when sent for a left handed rip hook, he went to the big specialist tool supplier in the town and was able to actually get a left handed one much to the embarrassment and leg pulling of the guy who's sent him.  There were other left handed tools too, bricklayer's trowels for instance where the hardened edge was on the other side - I always assumed they were symmetrically hardened until I found that out, may be different nowadays though when left handedness is totally accepted.
That reminds me of a young chap being sent to the stores by my workmate to get a cap full of 5/8" holes. The store man obliged, took the cap from the young lad and got a 5/8" hole punch from stock and set about the cap. My work mate wasn't happy when he got it back 😂
Title: Re: Left or right-handed ?
Post by: artifis on Thursday 07 January 21 14:58 GMT (UK)
 ;D