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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: jasonm on Wednesday 06 January 21 23:00 GMT (UK)
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Researching
Margaret Porter nee Bennett born ab 1842 NSW (no record at BDM)
Married Charles Porter 1863 Tamworth NSW (have certificate) per BDM
after Charles died ten years later she started using Bennett again (have his death certificate) per BDM
Margaret hung herself 15 March 1884 at Inverell NSW (Inquest performed) have documents
BDM NSW have no record of birth or death also cant find any burial details
I would like to know her parents were where born and buried, with all the certificates I have all they say is she was born NSW parents not known one of her parents were Aboriginal because the inquest records her as being "half-caste" this may be the reason her records werent kept.
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Researching
Margaret Porter nee Bennett born ab 1842 NSW (no record at BDM)
Married Charles Porter 1863 Tamworth NSW (have certificate) per BDM
after Charles died ten years later she started using Bennett again (have his death certificate) per BDM
Margaret hung herself 15 March 1884 at Inverell NSW (Inquest performed) have documents
BDM NSW have no record of birth or death also cant find any burial details
I would like to know her parents were where born and buried, with all the certificates I have all they say is she was born NSW parents not known one of her parents were Aboriginal because the inquest records her as being "half-caste" this may be the reason her records werent kept.
Welcome to Rootschat.
Your Margaret's parentage details are not on the civil registration of her marriage certificate because there was a long running dispute between the government and the churches over the amount of detail the government wanted, nothing to do with her Aboriginality ... the disputed went on from 1840s, peaked in 1860s and 1870s, and not sorted until 1890s. BUT .... the clergy did ask and did record the names of the parents of the bride and groom and did ask for the age and 'where born ' for bride and groom themselves. Often the town was written there. There was no where on the Church registers for any mention of race or ethnicity.
Re inquests.... well, there was no provision to include race on a death registration, and the likely reason for a lack of civil registration at NSW BDM in that era again has nothing to do with race. The process was meant to be
1. A sudden death needed to be investigated by the police
2. Police were to inform coroner of anything suspicious
3. Coroner could issue an authority for the burial, public health concerns/No chill room morgue facilities.
4. After medical examination the burial order would be provided to the funeral director
5.. Coroner could conduct inquest after burial, especially in rural districts with long distances to travel...
6. So no one person was responsible to go to court house (often right next to police station) and find the person who could write up the official wth registration in their lical bdm register and then every three months send a summary to Sydney to the Registrar General.
So few regional inquests means even the officials were not used to knowing the paperwork system.
Do you want help finding where the Church register for the marriage may be archived?
ADD registration of births, deaths, marriages did not start in NSW until 1856, so Margaret, marrying in 1863 would likely have been born before birth registrations started in NSW.
Further ADD You mention 1842 for possible birth .... NSW bdm has SOME but not all of the Early Churches Records, - early as in the years from penal settlement to establishment of Registrar General of births, deaths, marriages in 1856. And if baby was not baptised, then there would not ever be a "birth" to be included at that particular index at NSWBDM...
JM
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Thank you for explaining the system to me it makes sense now, If I could track down the church record of marriage that may be as far as I can go, They were married at Nombi station NSW by a traveling minister (John James Nash) on 19 Nov 1863 the marriage was registered at Tamworth CoE the BDM record is 02952, Would the church records have any more info than the BDM one?
Thanks Jason
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Yes, you should expect far more info on the church record.
The 'blanks' on the NSW BDM records were meant to be included, and in 1912 (yes, over 100 years ago) NSW BDM started to check and reconcile their own records. WWI stopped that process, it was not ever resumed - funding was not made available. They only got through much of Metro Sydney's churches registers. Rural and regional NSW basically is still waiting.
A long thread here .... has been read over 25,000 times. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
The elusive blank column headings that the church register should have noted are :
Birthplace (for both groom and bride)
Age (for both groom and bride)
Father's name mother's name and maiden surname
Father's occupation
Nombi Station ..... agh .... what were the names of the witnesses to that 1863 marriage...
I have some info on Rev Nash, yes, many Reverends were on 'circuits' through regional NSW in that era.
JM
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The Diocese of Armidale, NSW (so in the heart of the New England district of NSW) includes the districts that Rev Nash had on his circuit.
Here is a possible starting point to enquire about the Parish Register for his marriages in 1863 ...
http://www.armidaleanglicandiocese.com/contact
There is/was also an excellent website focusing on the New England district and Aboriginal Heritage .... and an RChatter here:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=524347.0 and https://sites.google.com/site/newenglandaboriginalhistory/
Hope these leads are useful, and keep asking questions :)
JM
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Hi thanks again I've attached the marriage cert to show you some info
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Thanks, and all of the official transcription services are always meticulous to include any comments, so I confirm that your 1863 m.c. has NOT ever been reconciled by NSW BDM. May I suggest that if you contact the Armidale diocese that you share that document, or at least the details on it with the Diocese, particularly the exact date of the marriage and the Reverend's name. That will help their archive volunteers to find the correct register if it is held by them still. (it should be, but the passage of time can make these registers quite fragile if not curated carefully).
JM
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Thankyou I have just emailed them just waiting for reply
Jason
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"....after Charles died ten years later she started using Bennett again (have his death certificate) "
Where and when do you see Margaret named as BENNETT after the death of husband Charles PORTER?
Death certificate for Charles PORTER.....can you please list all the information on this document.
Where do you see birthplace NSW....~ 1842 for Margaret PORTER nee BENNETT?
What children have you identified for Margaret?
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...after Charles died ten years later she started using Bennett again
1. On the inquest documents they name her Bennett alias Porter, also in 5 newspaper adds of the time
Where do you see birthplace NSW....~ 1842 for Margaret PORTER nee BENNETT?
2. On their marraige cert per NSW BDM (maiden name Bennett) (Birthplace NSW) (Parents unknown)
What children have you identified for Margaret?
3.Thomas, Caroline, John all born Coonabarbran NSW
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Also on John Porters birth cert (mother MARGARET FORMERLY BENNET)
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...after Charles died ten years later she started using Bennett again
1. On the inquest documents they name her Bennett alias Porter, also in 5 newspaper adds of the time
Where do you see birthplace NSW....~ 1842 for Margaret PORTER nee BENNETT?
2. On their marraige cert per NSW BDM (maiden name Bennett) (Birthplace NSW) (Parents unknown)
What children have you identified for Margaret?
3.Thomas, Caroline, John all born Coonabarbran NSW
Hi Jason, please please check the marriage cert transcription. It does NOT give birthplace. It can be important to give exact answers to our questions. So please do not for example assume/presume that her marriage certificate is informing us that a) her birthplace is NSW and or that b) her parents are unknown. The official transcription has that info as 'Not listed'. That's an entirely different scenerio from the BDM record having an entry reading as 'unknown'.
JM
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Double checked your right I am sorry it does say parents not listed, On her son Johns birth cert it states Mothers birth place NSW
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...after Charles died ten years later she started using Bennett again
1. On the inquest documents they name her Bennett alias Porter, also in 5 newspaper adds of the time
The above might not necessarily mean she reverted back to Bennett although in Scotland it was known for many widows to revert back to their maiden names.
This would be normal procedure in Scotland too where women don't lose their maiden name on marriage i.e. any legal papers would address her as 'Margaret Bennett or Porter', this applies to married/widowed/divorced women.
Annie
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:) :) Thanks for sorting that out,
JM
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In this newspaper report, she is noted as Margaret BENNETT.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/192566286 Armidale Express 25 March 1884.
Also, there was a sudden death in Sydney earlier in March 1884 for another person with same name (Margaret Bennett). So we need to carefully check newspaper reports to avoid any confusion.
JM
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Some further background, tragic, so sad.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18926179 Maitland Mercury 27 March 1884. No mention of her surname as PORTER in that cutting.
JM
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The reason I say she used her maiden name is because on Charles death cert it says "Informant Margaret Porter" but under "spouse" it says Margaret Bennett, this is why I am looking for more official documentation other than Inquest entries, I have entered both names on NSW BDM also variants of the names also on Ancestry.com and nothing other than her marriage and Charles death certs,
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WARNING, the following cutting uses an expression that is no longer used as it has adverse racist connotations indicating that the reporter believed that Margaret had an Aboriginal heritage.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/109871798 Evening News 31 March 1884.
JM
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You have an incompletely transcribed marriage certificate for Margaret BENNETT, and no death certificate, so it important to know / assess what information you have to work with.
What documents do you have for BDM events in the lives of the people you are researching?
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At the time of her death, and for the inquest records, Margaret is identified with family names PORTER and BENNETT. Other than that particular occasion, where and when do you see her as Margaret BENNETT?
"...after Charles died ten years later she started using Bennett again "
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BDM NSW birth
9098/1872 PORTER Caroline parents Charles / Margaret @ Coonabarabran
9816/1874 PORTER John parents Charles / Margaret @ Coonabarabran
death
4529/1874 PORTER Charles parents Thomas / Caroline @ Coonabarabran
Can you please list all the information on the birth certificate you have for John PORTER. The name of the informant is useful.....the person who gives Margaret birthplace and age.
Glen Innes Examiner and General Advertiser 18 Mar 1884 p4
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/217879714?
What happened to Margaret's children after her death?
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The reason I say she used her maiden name is because on Charles death cert it says "Informant Margaret Porter" but under "spouse" it says Margaret Bennett, this is why I am looking for more official documentation other than Inquest entries, I have entered both names on NSW BDM also variants of the names also on Ancestry.com and nothing other than her marriage and Charles death certs,
Agh .... well the NSW BDM requirement then (and still now) is that the name of the spouse is recorded in that specific position on that document as the name used when marrying and then the name used at the time of informing.... :) so she married as Bennett, and she was his widow, and thus Mrs Porter, when informing the information for his death registration.
JM
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So after Charles death, she may well have become known as Margaret BENNETT. It is still NOT against NSW law for anyone to become known by any name. NSW BDM would prefer that it was informed about the change of name, and various banks, government departments etc want to have the formality of a NSW BDM change of name document, but even as recently as the 1980s it was still quite possible to be known by any name without much ID to support it.
JM
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You have an incompletely transcribed marriage certificate for Margaret BENNETT, and no death certificate, so it important to know / assess what information you have to work with.
......
Wivenhoe, our OP has actually attached an official transcription of the full marriage cert based on NSW BDM records.... its attached to an earlier post. The marriage was in regional NSW, in the 1860s, and simply is one of the many NSW BDM marriage records that have NOT been reconciled to the Church registers. I have already offered my advice as to how to overcome those elusive blanks on the NSW BDM m.c.
JM
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Attached is John Porter birth cert Margarets son, Also Charles Death cert I've tried to attach the iquest doc but its to large
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John porter birth cert
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For docs too large you can split them into 2/3 or however many parts & attach in several posts.
Annie
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Hi Jason,
If you are looking at the images that Ancestry has uploaded, please do not upload, as that may infringe their Terms & Conditions. I am uploading a snip from a very small portion of an image of the Registers of Coroners' Inquests etc, as I am asking our regular RChatters to help confirm one word on it. I think it reads Margaret Porter, alias Bennett, 42, Tamworth.
I am asking if the word is 'alias'. I note that 'Tamworth' is given in the column headed 'Where born' and that 42 is in the column headed 'Age'. The inquest was March 1884, so I agree that Margaret was born in 1842 or thereabouts. And I well know that Tamworth is in the New England district of New South Wales, so I included 'Tamworth' to show some of the handwriting style of the legal clerk writing up that entire page of that register. So my snip is from image numbered 295 of 499. There are 19 or so separate entries, each 'line' being across the double page. Twelve columns, so the snip is across three columns of one entry in the central part of the document.
JM
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Hi
It may read ak as
Being 'also known as' which in current parlance we use as AKA.
Use Control+ F in Chrome or Edge to locate an interesting paragraph about Robert SOOBY, the man Margaret was stated to be living with at the time of her death.
https://press-files.anu.edu.au/downloads/press/p74381/pdf/book.pdf
Sue
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JM...I think the word is Alias although no dot above the 'i'...are there any other 'i's to compare it with?
Sue...From the snippet on Sooby, it at least confirms Margaret to have been a widow, (assuming) she was the 'woman' referred to?
Annie
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You are correct it does say Alias because I have other entry books that refer to her as Alias as well they all have the same inquest number 331, As to being born in Tamworth I wondered about that because that record is the only one that states Tamworth, would Tamworth been added because it was the closest major town? How did WW Fraser know where she was born?
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The Coroner relies on information gathered by the police,... the police were notified of the sudden death. So the police supplied the information re Tamworth, based on their enquiries. The other records with "331'" mentions are likely the handwritten indexes pointing to the document that I sourced for that snip to decipher that one word.
JM
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It does say Alias as this is from another entry i have, But how does he know if she was born in Tamworth? or was it because it was the closest major town?
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Perhaps my last post was not clear enough. Sorry.
WW Fraser was the person in charge of the Inquest. So he heard evidence from the police officers who had gathered their evidence of the sudden death of Margaret PORTER. So the Police information included her lawful name, her known by name, her age and her place of birth.... so standard police enquiries obtain that type and depth of detail basically in NSW since soldiers as garrison forces controlled the penal settlements starting in 1788 ....
The Coroner relies on information gathered by the police,... the police were notified of the sudden death. So the police supplied the information re Tamworth, based on their enquiries. The other records with "331'" mentions are likely the handwritten indexes pointing to the document that I sourced for that snip to decipher that one word.
JM
JM
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So basically, if you accept that her name was Margaret Porter, and Bennett ... and aged 42, then Tamworth should be accepted too.
JM.
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I have made several phone calls, checked Police Gazettes, checked offline records etc ....
WW Fraser was the Police Magistrate at Inverell. So he conducted the Inquest hearing in HIS Court House, best to accept he was thorough in making sure the evidence was gathered properly, and relevant. Notice or example her age .... it is 42.... not "about 42" nor 40-45 .... but an exact number.
JM
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William Wilberforce FRASER, P.M.
:)
JM
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Thank you for your PM.
William Wilberforce FRASER was born Scotland, son of a Presbyterian Reverend.... I am sure his role as a Police Magistrate further gives all of us confidence that he tested the evidence presented to him in that Court House. So I am also sure that by 1884, and thus with about ten years as Inverell,s P.M. his experiences would guide his judgements. I doubt if he would have personally attended and observed the local foot police collecting the details of her age, place of birth,... his obit is readily available online via Trove. He died in January 1918 aged 87. He had been in the Inverell district since aged 21. He retired as Police M in 1895, and continued farming at Brodies Plains.
I should mention that NSW BDM early church records are extensive, but they are from the decades before it became compulsory to register births, deaths or marriages. So not everyone baptised their babies,, not every church register survived ... floods, fires, bushrangers, misplaced by clergy .... etc.
ADD obit
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/180515759 Daily Telegraph 28 Jan 1918.