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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Threezzzs on Saturday 09 January 21 15:20 GMT (UK)
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Happy New Year to all.
I'm fairly new to this forum and I'm posting in the hope that someone will be able to help solve a mystery that has stalled one strand of my family tree for years. I'm trying to find the correct birth location of my great-grand-father, Arthur Sydney Seaborne. On all census records, Arthur claims to have been born in Islington, but we (my siblings and I) have never been able to prove same.
Arthur's actual date of birth varies from record to record, but in general, he seems to have been almost a decade older than claimed. His death cert is the more believable. Passing away on the 11th Jan 1929, he is cited as being aged 78; i.e. born 1851. This ties in with certain other family gossip.
Our major sticking point, however, is his true place of birth. Before her death, my elderly Aunt compiled her own hand-drawn family tree, supported by a memoir of sorts. In both, she cites her Grand-Dad (i.e. my G-Grand-Dad, Arthur) as being born in Ipswich, Suffolk, the son of Robert Seaborne, an Auctioneer in Ipswich. Indeed, on his marriage records, Arthur himself cites his (deceased) father as being Robert Seaborne, an Auctioneer.
This presents two problems. Firstly, the Ipswich Arthur Seaborn born 1850/51 is spelled Seaborn (no 'e' suffix), as is Robert his Father. More significantly, perhaps, is that Arthur of Ipswich goes on to marry a Laura Lavinia Elliston long before marrying my Great-Gran, Alice Clara Seaborne, nee Prentice. Moreover, that Arthur has three (poss more) children with Laura Lavinia, all of whom are abandoned to a workhouse following their Mother's early death! It is possible, I suppose, that our Arthur was a bigamist and a not very nice character to boot. But I would love to prove otherwise, and find that our Arthur was actually born in Islington, and that he, too, had a Father named Robert and who was also an Auctioneer.
Any help in finding an actual birth record for Arthur Sydney Seaborne of Islington would be greatly appreciated.
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Welcome to rootschat
Just putting some dates to your information.
1901 census Arthur is with Alice in Walthamstow - RG13 / 1631 f137 p27
He is 42 and born Islington.
He married Alice Clara Prentice 19 Nov 1895 at Milton-Next-Gravesend, his age was given as 34
Death Mar qtr 1885
SEABORN Laura Lavina age 33
Ipswich 4a 541
ADDED
Marriage Dec qtr 1869
ELLISTON Laura Lavinia
Seaborn Arthur
Ipswich 4a 1275
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The difference in the spelling of his surname would be quite a common occurrence in those times.
It would also not be unusual for children who had lost their mother to be put in an institution of some kind, a man on his own would need to be working and could not be looking after the children as well.
I am not sure why you are saying he was possibly a bigamist, there is a 10 year gap between Lavinias death and his remarriage. Death certificates are also unreliable with the information they contain about the deceased as they are dependant on the knowledge of the informant.
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I was just going to say the same, in his defence he wouldn't be a bigamist if his first wife had already died but a widower.
There is this birth in Ipswich to check out.
Arthur Seaborn Jun 1850 mothers maiden name Warner
You would need to purchase the birth certificate to confirm his parents names but can look for a Seaborn/Warner marriage and that family on census.
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There is this Seaborn family in 1861
Robert 52 warehouseman born Ardleigh Essex
Elizabeth Mary 50 wife born Debham Essex
Emma 21 daughter born Coggeshall Essex
Esther 17 daughter born Stepney London
Alfred Alex 14 son born Ipswich
Arthur 11 son born Ipswich
In 1851 Arthur is down as 11 but actually 11 months infant and father Robert is clerk at paper mill
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Robert Seaborn married Elizabeth Mary Warner 8 Sep 1830 Dedham Essex
Robert died 12 Jul 1869 described as a rag merchant
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Age and birthplace is consistent in 1881
Arthur Seaborn 31 born Ipswich
Laura 29
Arthur 6
Percy 4
Robert 2
Arthur is in the workhouse with his children in 1883
Consistent birth year again for Arthur as 1851
Which census do you have him born Islington please?
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Indeed, on his marriage records, Arthur himself cites his (deceased) father as being Robert Seaborne, an Auctioneer.
That sounds like you have both marriage certificates so am guessing he said he was a bachelor on both which led you to the bigamy suspicion?
Perhaps he didn't want his second wife to know he had a previous family he wasn't able to care for after being widowed, changed his age and where he was from to make a fresh start.
What do you think?
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Rosie posted the 1901 census in the first reply?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9ND-SLX
1911 census:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWFM-MCH
He's with the Salvation Army? Soup Kitchens Manager.
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"quote"
On all census records, Arthur claims to have been born in Islington, but we (my siblings and I) have never been able to prove same.
1871 census records his birthplace as Ipswich. Aged 21 (c1850) with wife Laura and daughter Grace.
I can find 6 children born to this couple prior to her death in 1885
John
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Many thanks for the many replies from all concerned. In truth, I hadn't expected such an immediate response. Regarding my Arthur's marriage records. I'm afraid my use of the plural might be slightly misleading. Oddly, Arthur Sydney Seaborne and my G-Gran, Alice Clara Prentice appear to have married 'twice' over two days; i.e. once at a Registry office in Rochford, Essex, the other at the parish of Christchurch in Kent. (The copies I have are hard to read.)
My use of the term, Bigamist, was probably harsh. I've been working on the premise that if my Arthur and the Ipswich Arthur are one and the same, then he had probably abandoned the family and possibly not even been aware of the situation. It's hard to accept that he (or anyone) would have left the children in that workhouse and never returned for them if he had known of their plight.
All of the other information each of you have so kindly provided I already have. It's really a case of proving his claim to Islington (or not).
Perhaps importantly is that some years ago I was in touch with a person I found on a well-known family tree site. He has Arthur of Ipswich and Laura Lavinia Elliston in his ancestral roots, but insists that our two Arthurs are different, claiming that he can see from the census records that my Arthur was born in Islington. But when I highlighted the years between Laura's death and my Arthur's marriage to my G-Gran, he admitted that he had not been able to find a death for his Arthur!
On the face of it, all the evidence seems to point to my Arthur fibbing about the Islington origin, being married to (a) Laura Lavinia and then (b) my Alice Clara. The bug in the ointment, so to speak, is Arthur's Islington claim.
Any and all thoughts very welcome, but my sincere thanks to all respondees for your kind help.
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I think they are most likely one and the same but can't explain the Islington reference.
The first marriage certificate might be of use, for example to compare signatures with the one on his second marriage and to compare his fathers name and occupation.
Something to link them together as being one and the same person.
If the Ipswich Arthur disappears and then the Islington Arthur appears with no overlap ie you can't find both of them at the same time then that is another indication there was only one person.
Do we know where he was in the 1891 census?
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I agree with others who have posted - the Ipswich Arthur and the Islington Arthur are one and the same.
By the time he met and married Alice Clara Prentice his first wife had died (1885) and children ended up in care. Times were so different then and it's hard for us to conceive the circumstances. He had to work but had no none to look after his children hence them ending up in care. I, personally, cannot find either Arthur in 1891 but would assume he had no contact with his children who appear to have been eventually moved to his home parish of Ipswich.
Then he meets and marries Alice - rather than admit his former life he 'acquires' a second christian name, knocks 10 years off his age, changes his birthplace and by claiming to be a bachelor avoids having to explain his 6 earlier children who are in care and whom we can only assume he had no further contact with. Whilst I can understand how they ended up in care it's hard to accept that he effectively turned his back on them once they were which he did. He clearly didn't want to be found by authorities hence his change of name/age/status/birthplace.
So sad.
Annette
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from Rootspoint 1881 census
https://www.rootspoint.com/record/1881-UK-Census/Arthur-Seaborn-1850-Ipswich-Suffolk-Lambeth/6b95762b-4816-48d4-9483-3edc8065f0a1/
I wonder what type of house it was ?
154, Mayall Rd
Lambeth, London
HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS:
Arthur Seaborn (31, Male)
Laura Seaborn (29, Female)
Arthur Seaborn (6, Male)
Percy Seaborn (4, Male)
Robert Seaborn (2, Male)
Clara Frost (44, Female)
Clara J Frost (20, Female)
William G Frost (15, Male)
Frederick J Frost (8, Male)
George Hammerton (34, Male)
Annie Hammerton (36, Female)
William Hammerton (14, Male)
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Thank you again for the very helpful input. Regarding where my Arthur was in 1891, I have not been able to find a census record for him in that year. However, in 1881, he has moved to Gathorne Terrace in Leeds, Yorks, where his son, Hadleigh Sydney Seaborne was born. He is trading as a Commercial Book-keeper.
There is also family knowledge of a strong Salvation Army link. His wife, my G-Gran Alice Clara, played the Cornet at some stage in one of the Sally Army's places (but no proof of same). Family gossip is that Hadleigh, his son, was named because of the link to Hadleigh Farm. Also, Arthur & Alice lost a son named William Boothe Seaborne, again, a pertinent reference to the founder of that army.
Regarding the house at 154 Mayall Rd, I have copied a Google image of it as it is today. However, I have no other knowledge of that house or how it was used in that period.
I agree with Millipede, in that I have not been able to find any indication of an overlap between the 'two' Arthurs. Equally, I haven't been able to tie him in to any form of military service, institution of other that might have explained a period of disappearance.
A final tit-bit that my Aunt mentioned and which my Mom also talked about in my very young years, was that he (Arthur) once worked as a Clerk at Australia House and had what both described as 'wonderful copper-plate hand-writing'. There is some evidence of that in my Arthur's signature on the 1911 census, although, I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as such myself. Because of the Australia reference, I put a deal of effort into Arthur Seabornes who might have travelled to Oz, NZ et al, but without any joy.
Sincere thanks again to each for your help. In a way, you've reinforced my own sneaking conviction that the two Arthurs must be one and the same. I was just a little reluctant to accept the obvious, I suppose.
But I'll keep digging anyway, just in case....!
Moderator Comment: Copyright image removed. See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php
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Thank you again for the very helpful input. Regarding where my Arthur was in 1891, I have not been able to find a census record for him in that year. However, in 1881, he has moved to Gathorne Terrace in Leeds, Yorks, where his son, Hadleigh Sydney Seaborne was born. He is trading as a Commercial Book-keeper.
Hadleigh Sydney was born in Essex ;D Rochford Registration District,
SEABORNE, HADLEIGH SYDNEY (Mother's Maiden Name:) PRENTICE
GRO Reference: 1896 D Quarter in ROCHFORD Volume 04A Page 559
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Presumably you eliminated this Arthur?
SEABORN, ARTHUR FISHER
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in COLCHESTER Volume 12 Page 70
Looks as if the above is living here in 1891 - Military Road, St Botolph, Colchester, Essex
Arthur (engine driver) with wife Isabella and six children.
Registration district Colchester
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 1406
Folio 81
Page 16
Marriages Mar 1872
COOK Isabella Lexden 4a 379
SEABORN Arthur Lexden 4a 379
I haven't gone either backwards or forwards to make any further checks. Just flagging up that there was another Arthur in the same birth year time if not place.
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Very interesting thread. In 1891 there are three Seaborne children, Percy, 13, Robert, 11 and Lily 8 noted as paupers, living in St John's Home, Ipswich. They are all born in Middlesex.
Chris
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Presumably you eliminated this Arthur?
SEABORN, ARTHUR FISHER
GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in COLCHESTER Volume 12 Page 70
Looks as if the above is living here in 1891 - Military Road, St Botolph, Colchester, Essex
Arthur (engine driver) with wife Isabella and six children.
Registration district Colchester
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 1406
Folio 81
Page 16
Marriages Mar 1872
COOK Isabella Lexden 4a 379
SEABORN Arthur Lexden 4a 379
I haven't gone either backwards or forwards to make any further checks. Just flagging up that there was another Arthur in the same birth year time if not place.
For anyone trying to help, just to confirm that he is also with wife Isabella in 1881 so we can eliminate him
RG11/1791 Folio 53 Page 3
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KGarrad, you're absolutely right - my apologies. It's the price paid for hurried writing without going back to my records. It was actually Wiliam Boothe Seaborne who was born in Leeds, but died just a year later in West Ham.
To Rosie99, yes, I eliminated that Arthur quite early on. The 'Engine Driver' reference would never have tied in with the Arthur known by my family. To quote my Aunt, 'he was a Clerk, when he worked at all...' Lots of innuendo there, and I only wish that I had known all of this while she was still alive!
Thank you again to each.
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Threezzzs, have you followed the 6 children of Arthur & Laura. A couple of them make great research. Grace Gertude married 1891 went on to have 15 children and died at the grand age of 94. It still amazes me how some individuals despite their difficult childhood come through and move on.
John
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Greetings JohnHood,
To be honest I deliberately opted not to go down that route until I knew for certain that the 'two' Arthurs were one and the same. That said, the person I mentioned who is directly related to the children you mention went on to publish a massive tome on the internet, which describes in great detail his research, sources used and much more. In places, it's more of a history read than a family tree, but the effort that has gone into it is plain to see. I won't give you his name, but the work I mention is freely available on Google books and is called Of Town Mice and Country Mice: A Family History.
As stated, he (the Author) is adamant that our two Arthurs are different and that mine is clearly from Islington.
I agree entirely with your sentiments regarding a person's ability to survive some of humanities most appalling situations, while others do not. It is what makes us what we are, I suppose.
Many thanks for the interest and the feed-back.
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I am tempted to think the two Arthur's are one and the same person. As has already been suggested, I would get copies of both marriage certificates to compare signatures. 'Your' Arthur has signed the 1911 census and the 'S' in his signature Is quite distinctive - certainly worth investigating.
Chris
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I am tempted to think the two Arthur's are one and the same person. As has already been suggested, I would get copies of both marriage certificates to compare signatures. 'Your' Arthur has signed the 1911 census and the 'S' in his signature Is quite distinctive - certainly worth investigating.
Chris
In case you are not aware marriage certificates obtained from the GRO do not generally have original signatures on them so you would need to access them from parish registers or local registrars. If the latter you need to clarify with them that they will be issuing a copy that does have the original signature on.
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Thank you Rosie for clarifying that
Chris
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The 1895 Milton marriage is on CityArk
Very first image on pdf!
https://cityark.medway.gov.uk/wwwopacx/wwwopac.ashx?command=getcontent&server=files&value=P252C-01-01-12(2).pdf
Embezzlement may have been the "downfall" of Arthur Seaborn, when he went from clerk to coachman
London Evening Standard, 21 January 1874
Ipswich Journal, 27 January 1874
Says he admitted taking some money, haven't seen a follow up.
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Good find John. I am glad you can find things on City Ark, I really need more practice ;D
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Rosie, I think I have finally got the hang of the parish registers on there.
It was easier in the old days! They used to have some cemetery records, but they seem to have gone :-\
John
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It was really easy in the old days. I must have a look again to see what they have and have some practice as it is a good free website.
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There is this Seaborn family in 1861
Robert 52 warehouseman born Ardleigh Essex
Elizabeth Mary 50 wife born Debham Essex
Emma 21 daughter born Coggeshall Essex
Esther 17 daughter born Stepney London
Alfred Alex 14 son born Ipswich
Arthur 11 son born Ipswich
In 1851 Arthur is down as 11 but actually 11 months infant and father Robert is clerk at paper mill
In 1881 the widowed Elizabeth and daughter Esther (unmarried) have Grace Gertrude age 10 grandaughter (Arthur and Laura Lavinia's eldest) with them
Piece: 283, Folio: 42, Page: 24
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Welcome to rootschat
Just putting some dates to your information.
1901 census Arthur is with Alice in Walthamstow - RG13 / 1631 f137 p27
He is 42 and born Islington.
He married Alice Clara Prentice 19 Nov 1895 at Milton-Next-Gravesend, his age was given as 34
Death Mar qtr 1885
SEABORN Laura Lavina age 33
Ipswich 4a 541
ADDED
Marriage Dec qtr 1869
ELLISTON Laura Lavinia
Seaborn Arthur
Ipswich 4a 1275
Laura died aged 33 on 1 Feb 1885 in East Suffolk hospital . Death notice says wife of Arthur Seaborn and youngest daughter of the late W Elliston
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jonw65. An amazing link to a site I didn't even know existed; my thanks. It took a little time to find my way around it, but I eventually managed to download the record. True to say that I had that information already, but this version is infinitely clearer! All I need now is a similar site for his Rochford, Essex marriage.
I'm intrigued by the 'embezzlement' article, and will have to dig deeper.
Thank you again.
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deleted
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A little baffled to find two marriages for Arthur in 1895
Marriages Dec 1895
Grubb Herbert Rochford 4a 802
Parish Kate Rochford 4a 802
Prentice Alice Clara Rochford 4a 802
Seaborne Arthur Sydney Rochford 4a 802
Marriages Dec 1895
Maytum Kate Ellen Gravesend 2a 890
Prentice Alice Clara Gravesend 2a 890
Seaborne Arthur Sydney Gravesend 2a 890
Strickland William Arthur Gravesend 2a 890
I assume they are both to the same lady. One C of E and one Catholic or other ???
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Johnhood - Did you check the birth year? It gives 1870 so probably this man?
ADLINGTON, ARTHUR SAMUEL JUKES
GRO Reference: 1870 M Quarter in GRAVESEND Volume 02A Page 429
He is also noted as being single, not that is always anything to go by.
Added: I see that John has deleted his post. Assume the birth year was spotted.
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Less haste more speed on my behalf..
John
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Never mind John, I'm sure we've all done that in the past. The excitement of following the trail ;D
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Possibly Arthur made the news 21.7.1880, Stratford Times & South Essex Gazette for stealing monies, sentenced six weeks hard labour.
John
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Interesting snippet John but I think it may be referring to the Arthur that I posted on Reply#16. He is Colchester born and living there in 1891.
Or he may be a different chap altogether with a different age. His occupation is given as a carter in the employ of Mr. H. Digby of Cannock Mill.
Possibly not the Arthur in Reply#16 as his daughter was born in 1874 and he is an engine driver.
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Just a note to say that I have just now come across the 1871 census for Arthur, but under the mis-spelt surname of Seaburn. In that census, he is (again) a Clerk, born in Ipswich and married to Laura Lavinia. Their only child, Grace, is cited as aged 0.
All in all, the concensus of advice and findings offered from each of you suggests that the two Arthurs are one and the same, something I should have accepted from the beginning perhaps. That in mind, and in the knowledge that I have not been able to find an Islington Seaborn/Seaborne family capable of supporting my Arthur's claims, I'm going to bite the bullet and commit him to my tree as being born in Ipswich (along with Laura Lavinia and all of the poor children who suffered after her premature demise).
I'm sure you've each helped others in the past and are used to this sort of exchange. But I would like to reinforce my sincere thanks again for the amount of effort on your respective parts and the willingness in which it was offered. I wish you well with your own research.
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Glad we could all be of some help.
You were quite right to question the birth place and not just accept it as fact.
Any other queries you may have in the future please do post again :)
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It's been an interesting post. One final snippet, there is an obituary for Laura Lavinia in newspaper 1885.
John
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To all who were kind enough to help with my recent research regarding my Great-Grand-Father, Arthur Sydney Seaborne.
Just to add a little closure to the story, and in the hope that it might serve to help others who link to this Seaborne line in the future, my sister has come up trumps. She has discovered military records for Arthur Seaborn, born Ipswich, which states 'an apparent age of' 27 years and 7 months. This is clearly the Arthur who married Laura Lavinia Elliston and, therefore, the same man who abandoned his children to the work-house following her early demise. However, he hadn't died or disappeared as we surmised, he had joined the army!
My initial excitement faded slightly when I read that he was not discharged from the army until 1897, i.e. two years after he married my G-Gran, Alice Clara Prentice, and a year after the birth of their first son, Hadleigh Sydney Seaborne. However, closer scrutiny revealed that on the 12th February 1889, Arthur had been transferred to the Reserves, apparently at his own request.
Another small, but intriguing snippet was that although the records show that he had enlisted into the Medical Staff Corps (Aldershot, 17th March 1886), the only qualification achieved was that 'he was qualified to act as Cook in a military hospital' (3rd Feb 1888). Bearing mind that on the 1911 census, 'our' Arthur is cited as being the Manager of a Soup Kitchen in the Salvation Army, we are now more convinced than ever that the 'two Arthurs' have to be one and the same.
Again, sincere thanks to all.
Frank J.
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Frank, thank's for letting us all know your thoughts and outcome. Pleased we all could help.
John