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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: suey on Monday 11 January 21 10:51 GMT (UK)

Title: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: suey on Monday 11 January 21 10:51 GMT (UK)
I have twin girls, Hannah and Sarah ARGENT, baptised on the same day, 6th December 1778, both aged 22 days. St Mary Stratford

What are the chances of both surviving ?  Do any Rootschatters have surviving twins from this period?

I have Hannah in later records but no sign of Sarah.  I'm fairly certain she has died although can't find any record of death or burial.

 
Title: Re: Twins born 1778
Post by: trish1120 on Monday 11 January 21 12:57 GMT (UK)
Was the Bapt London, Essex or Suffolk?
Title: Re: Twins born 1778
Post by: trish1120 on Monday 11 January 21 13:12 GMT (UK)
If Parents were Samuel/Sarah.
 Doesnt Samuels 1807 Will mention Daugs Sara/Elizabeth/Hanna and Sons Thomas/Christopher?
(must admit my eyes are not great so may need checking by someone!)
Title: Re: Twins born 1778
Post by: suey on Monday 11 January 21 13:51 GMT (UK)
If Parents were Samuel/Sarah.
 Doesnt Samuels 1807 Will mention Daugs Sara/Elizabeth/Hanna and Sons Thomas/Christopher?
(must admit my eyes are not great so may need checking by someone!)

Yes, I donít have it to hand right now.. I have had doubts for years that my family are the ones in that will. But Iím dipped if I can find births/baptisms elsewhere for my lot. 
Mine are all in Poplar, Bow area of London, when I can find them that is. In the one reliable census 1851 they claim Poplar or Bow as pob.

Just a coincidence of names muddying the water

Back to the drawing board it seems.
Title: Re: Twins born 1778
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 11 January 21 17:01 GMT (UK)
If Parents were Samuel/Sarah.
 Doesnt Samuels 1807 Will mention Daugs Sara/Elizabeth/Hanna and Sons Thomas/Christopher?
(must admit my eyes are not great so may need checking by someone!)

I agree Trish, I also think one of his executors is John Argent, who is another son
 "sons John Christopher and Thomas"

The burial register for St Mary Bow has
26 June 1806, Sarah Argent, died of Decline, age 58
Where buried - Barking.

Is that then a death date?
As there is a burial at Barking, Essex, on 6 July 1806
Sarah Argent, age 58
Parish register here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6Q93-QWB

Then, in 1807, the Bow register has
22 July, Samuel Argent, decline, age 62, buried Barking

And in the Barking parish register, burials in 1807
29 July, Samuel Argent, 62
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6Q9S-FPN

The will of Samuel Argent was dated 22 June 1807
And proved in the PCC, 27 July 1807

Was the marriage at Barking? :-\
12 Nov 1769
Samuel Argent and Sarah Braybrook
Bachelor and spinster, both of the parish
Image of parish register on FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6Q9S-BPY
Title: Re: Twins born 1778
Post by: suey on Monday 11 January 21 20:02 GMT (UK)

I have been looking at Samuel and Sarah Argent for some years and have finally concluded that they are not mine.  However I might want them to 'fit' my family they don't.

But you will see why I tried.

I have Elizabeth Argent -
1841 age 60 by c1781
1851 age 65 by c1786
1861 age 87 by 1774
1864 burial record dies age 89 buried Tower Hamlets

Hannah Argent
1841 age 60 by c1771
1851 age 66 by c1785
1854 dies, from burial All Saints Poplar age 73 by c1781

Thomas Argent
1809 - Thames Watermen etc. Bound to William Milton but reassigned to Reuben Pressman on the same date. Supposing Thomas was 15 by c1794
(Reuben Pressman was Hannah's first husband)
1841 age 46 by c1795
1851 age 50 by c1801

Sarah Argent
1851 age 40 by c1811
This is the only firm sighting I have of Sarah, I'm still exploring the possibility that Sarah made a late marriage

Census, below are the census returns which make me believe that the above are siblings,

CENSUS 1851 - 6 Leicester Street Poplar
Hannah Melvin head 66 parish relief b Bow (Was Pressman)
Mary Ann Lowther dau 34 mariners wife b Poplar
Sarah Argent un aunt 40 servant out of place b Bow
Thomas Argent un uncle 50 lighterman b Bow
Sarah Redknap sister m 38 dressmaker b Poplar nee Pressman
Georgina Redknap dau 14 b Hammersmith
Joseph Redknap son 8 ditto
Mary Ann Redknap dau 3 b Poplar - poss death 1854
Mary Ann Lowther dau 5 b Poplar
George Lowther son 1yr ditto
Alfred Lowther son 3 months ditto

1851 Census at 172 High Street Shadwell Tower Hamlets in the household of James Herne 61 auctioneer master b Mdsx St George
Elizabeth Argent serv un age 65 born Midsx Bromley
Sarah Redknap serv un age 17 born Hammersmith - Sarah Pressman and Joseph Redknaps daughter.
Two lodgers Geo Hitchen 26 plasterer from Brighton and Joshua Turner 24 a gunsmith from Holborn

1861 Census Elizabeth Argent, described as aunt is with James and Sarah Everett - aged 87 (Elizabeth would be Sarah's great aunt)
17 Sidney Street, MEOT
James Everett head m 24 messenger b Brentwood
Sarah wife 26  (Sarah nee Redknap)
James 15
Mary 3

They all claim Bow, Bromley, Poplar as place of birth. You can see my confusion. Conclusion is they moved into Poplar as children from elsewhere and all assume the area as their birthplace.
Title: Re: Twins born 1778
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 11 January 21 22:55 GMT (UK)
Hi
Hannah is a bit complicated!
So her first marriage as Argent in Bow to Reuben Pressman was witnessed by an Elizabeth Argent
Then she married Enos Redknap in 1820 in Shoreditch
Third marriage to Thomas Melvin in Greenwich in 1834. Witnessed by Elizabeth Argent again?

In 1851 then it seems that, although Hannah Melvin is the head of household, the three other adult relationships given are to her daughter Mary Ann Lowther (or Lower here?).
Perhaps Mary completed the form?

I think it says that Sarah is 60 in 1851, though ancestry say 40
Though it is still not the same age as Hannah, 66.
When we are hoping they might be the twins. Though, as you have suggested, Sarah might have died, and later was replaced by another Sarah. Though there are funny discrepancies in the info people sometimes give in the census.

Did Thomas die in 1856?
ARGENT, THOMAS       
Age at Death (in years):  62 
GRO Reference: 1856  J Quarter in POPLAR UNION  Volume 01C  Page 396

Burial at Poplar All Saints, 26 June 1856
Thomas Argent
age 62

Which would be a good match on age for the son of Samuel + Sarah
Thomas Argent bap 15 Sep 1793, Bow, born 31 Aug 1793

Hannah's age on the census, and on death, all make her older than the twin born 1788.
John
Title: Re: Twins born 1778
Post by: suey on Tuesday 12 January 21 08:43 GMT (UK)

John, many thanks...You see my dilemma.

Yes I believe Mary Ann gave the information. 
Yes, I believe that is Thomas death in 1856
Yes, greedy Hannah had three husbands, I think she was a good catch, Reuben left her a 100 ton barge plus the contents of a public house  :D

1851, I have looked at that image over and over, is it a scrappy 60, 66 or 40, you could make it 'fit'

Twins born 1778 - Hannah, in 1841 age 60 by c1771
                                             1851 age 66 by c1785
                                              1854 Hannah dies age 73 by c1781

Samuel dies 1807, his will mentions a Christopher, nothing known about him, also John, prs have a James born to Samuel and Sarah 1780 but no John (James and John?, one and the same?)
Samuel was a carpenter, possibly involved with boat building, repairs. Hannah marries a seaman, Thomas becomes a waterman.

You can see how easy it is to fiddle the facts and figures to make it work  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Twins born 1778
Post by: LizzieL on Tuesday 12 January 21 09:15 GMT (UK)

I agree Trish, I also think one of his executors is John Argent, who is another son
 "sons John Christopher and Thomas"
.......

Was the marriage at Barking? :-\
12 Nov 1769
Samuel Argent and Sarah Braybrook
Bachelor and spinster, both of the parish
Image of parish register on FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6Q9S-BPY

There's a John Argent bapt Barking on 10 nov 1771 s/o Samuel and Sarah
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: LizzieL on Tuesday 12 January 21 09:21 GMT (UK)
and Joseph bapt 14 Aug 1774 same place.
would fit between marriage and later baptisms in Stratford.

Unfortunately no occupation mentioned on baptism record

added
and Samuel bapt 23 May 1773 Barking
Title: Re: Twins born 1778
Post by: suey on Tuesday 12 January 21 09:34 GMT (UK)

I agree Trish, I also think one of his executors is John Argent, who is another son
 "sons John Christopher and Thomas"
.......

Was the marriage at Barking? :-\
12 Nov 1769
Samuel Argent and Sarah Braybrook
Bachelor and spinster, both of the parish
Image of parish register on FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6Q9S-BPY

There's a John Argent bapt Barking on 10 nov 1771 s/o Samuel and Sarah

Yes, that is the marriage.  So we do have a James and a John...

I think this family are forever to be consigned to the maybe, possible list.
I can't see enough evidence to claim them. 
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: LizzieL on Tuesday 12 January 21 09:38 GMT (UK)
Browsing through St Margaret Barking registers there's a Mary d/o Samuel and Mary bapt 22 July 1770. Is it a different Samuel or has vicar made a mistake in thinking mother and baby had same name?
Samuel and Sarah  do seem to be producing children in rapid succession, Mary would fit between a hasty marriage and John. The Barking Vicar hasn't recorded age of baby, but all the Stratford ones were 3 - 4 weeks old at baptism.
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: LizzieL on Tuesday 12 January 21 09:55 GMT (UK)
Long shot but
There's a Christopher Argent who married on 7 Mar 1813 at St Martins in the Fields to Hannah King. and another (or the same) Christopher who was buried in Stoke Newington 4 Nov 1822 age 34.

Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 12 January 21 09:56 GMT (UK)
Regarding James, we have a baptism at Bow, 7 May 1780, to Samuel and Sarah.
And a burial at Barking, 30 Aug 1780, James Argent, infant
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6Q9S-871

If Samuel and Sarah had other children buried at Barking, and were themselves buried there from Bow, then they may have had son James buried there too.
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: suey on Tuesday 12 January 21 10:01 GMT (UK)
Browsing through St Margaret Barking registers there's a Mary d/o Samuel and Mary bapt 22 July 1770. Is it a different Samuel or has vicar made a mistake in thinking mother and baby had same name?
Samuel and Sarah  do seem to be producing children in rapid succession, Mary would fit between a hasty marriage and John. The Barking Vicar hasn't recorded age of baby, but all the Stratford ones were 3 - 4 weeks old at baptism.

Thank you, I donít know why I donít use family search more often. At one time there were so many spurious user added records I began to distrust it  :)
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: LizzieL on Tuesday 12 January 21 10:02 GMT (UK)
Long shot but
There's a Christopher Argent who married on 7 Mar 1813 at St Martins in the Fields to Hannah King. and another (or the same) Christopher who was buried in Stoke Newington 4 Nov 1822 age 34.

I think the Christopher buried in Stoke Newington is the one who married Mary Pammer in Islington on 19 Feb 1809 and had child Christopher William Argent bapt in Stoke Newington in 1813.

So we have two Christophers of right sort of age so far
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: suey on Tuesday 12 January 21 10:02 GMT (UK)
Long shot but
There's a Christopher Argent who married on 7 Mar 1813 at St Martins in the Fields to Hannah King. and another (or the same) Christopher who was buried in Stoke Newington 4 Nov 1822 age 34.

Looks good Lizzie, explains why heís not found later
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 12 January 21 10:03 GMT (UK)
Executors of Samuels will in 1807 were John Argent, carpenter, of Mile End, and James Howard of Walworth, Surrey, schoolmaster.
A possible marriage for John might be
2 June 1794, All Saints Poplar
John Argent + Susannah Howard

Burial at Spitalfields :-\
25 Feb 1828
John Argent
Wentworth Street
age 56
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: suey on Tuesday 12 January 21 10:11 GMT (UK)
Regarding James, we have a baptism at Bow, 7 May 1780, to Samuel and Sarah.
And a burial at Barking, 30 Aug 1780, James Argent, infant
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6Q9S-871

If Samuel and Sarah had other children buried at Barking, and were themselves buried there from Bow, then they may have had son James buried there too.

Well done, Iíve been trying to bump off James...I must make more use of familysearch ::)
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: suey on Tuesday 12 January 21 10:16 GMT (UK)

Thank you all for replies. I need to digest all this new information.
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 12 January 21 10:26 GMT (UK)
The age of Elizabeth Argent, 89, on death in 1864, is a good(ish) match for the 1776 baptism.
Really your problem is the ages given for Hannah (especially) and Sarah. And we only have one confirmed sighting of Sarah.

A bit desperate, but, theoretically, as an unmarried woman, the death cert of Elizabeth might give her father's name in the occupation column, i.e. daughter of Samuel Argent, Carpenter
But she was 89(!), and most, or all, of her siblings were dead. The informant may have no idea. So I wouldn't be too confident of it :(
John

Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: suey on Tuesday 12 January 21 11:01 GMT (UK)
The age of Elizabeth Argent, 89, on death in 1864, is a good(ish) match for the 1776 baptism.
Really your problem is the ages given for Hannah (especially) and Sarah. And we only have one confirmed sighting of Sarah.

A bit desperate, but, theoretically, as an unmarried woman, the death cert of Elizabeth might give her father's name in the occupation column, i.e. daughter of Samuel Argent, Carpenter
But she was 89(!), and most, or all, of her siblings were dead. The informant may have no idea. So I wouldn't be too confident of it :(
John

I know  :'(  Add to the fact that only Hannah in my records married there are no marriage certificates with a father.

I think I am going to have to put them back in the maybe file, where theyíve been since about 2008   ::) 
I researched back then with a lovely lady who was a descendant from another Argent family. She had extensive trees and even then had my lot hanging on a twig waiting for a family. Iíve no idea what happened to all her research as she had no family who were interested enough to keep it going.

Thanks for all the help everyone .
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: jonw65 on Tuesday 12 January 21 11:11 GMT (UK)
Hi
Good luck, hope you find the answer!
I'll add one last thing, a possible Sarah death in 1860 (can't see her after 1851)
There is an age discrepancy again, this time between the age recorded from the cert in the new GRO death index, and the one given on  the burial record!

ARGENT, SARAH       
Age at Death (in years):  78 
GRO Reference: 1860  J Quarter in POPLAR UNION  Volume 01C  Page 401

Some others with the same GRO reference are buried at Tower Hamlets (no Sarah), around the same time in April as this burial at the City of London Cemetery
23 April 1860
Sarah Argent
residence Poplar
age 66 years
last entry, double click to get bigger saveable image
https://col-burialregisters.uk/archive/burial-registers-january-1860-to-december-1869/register-003/1063267
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: suey on Tuesday 12 January 21 13:45 GMT (UK)
Hi
Good luck, hope you find the answer!
I'll add one last thing, a possible Sarah death in 1860 (can't see her after 1851)
There is an age discrepancy again, this time between the age recorded from the cert in the new GRO death index, and the one given on  the burial record!

ARGENT, SARAH       
Age at Death (in years):  78 
GRO Reference: 1860  J Quarter in POPLAR UNION  Volume 01C  Page 401

Some others with the same GRO reference are buried at Tower Hamlets (no Sarah), around the same time in April as this burial at the City of London Cemetery
23 April 1860
Sarah Argent
residence Poplar
age 66 years
last entry, double click to get bigger saveable image
https://col-burialregisters.uk/archive/burial-registers-january-1860-to-december-1869/register-003/1063267

Thank you !  I did have that ref pencilled in for Sarah but like to see a death certificate or burial record to confirm.
Not making it easy are they ?
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: LizzieL on Tuesday 12 January 21 14:51 GMT (UK)
May be part of Sarah Braybrook's family.
A John Braybrook bach. was married at St Margaret, Barking on 14 May 1770. Bride Mary Collop sp., botp. Both made mark. One witness was another John Braybrook, but he signed. Shaky, poor signature, could be elderly / not used to writing.
I've found three children born to couple, bapt in Barking.
Phoebe Sarah bapt 5 Jan 1772
John bapt 17 Jun 1777
Mary bapt 13 Apr 1783

Several gaps so maybe more. This is from transcript on FindMyPast, so I'll have a look at registers

There is a burial for a Mary on 03 Aug 1783, don't know whether it's the baby or the mother.
Burial for a John Braybrook on 06 Sep 1850 at Barking age 73, residence Romford Union. So he could be the son John.

added
Can't find any more Braybrook baptisms in Barking. Register has birth of Mary as 25 March, so baptised at about 3 weeks. The burial says Mary was infant, so it's not the mother.
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: LizzieL on Tuesday 12 January 21 15:41 GMT (UK)
Phoebe Sarah married on 31 Dec 1700 in Shoreditch to Charles Webb. She signed. Witnesses Charles and Charlotte Braybrook made their mark.
Title: Re: Twins born 1778 Hannah and Sarah ARGENT
Post by: suey on Tuesday 12 January 21 19:17 GMT (UK)

Thanks Lizzie, more to add to the story. Braybrook not an uncommon surname in Essex it seems.