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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Jane Sharp on Saturday 16 January 21 13:46 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I am researching the children of John and Ann Renshaw, from Stretford, Lancashire, England - specifically their children born in the 1750s.
I have found that there are two John and Ann Renshaw couples. Both Johns were butchers.
In the Saint Matthews book of baptisms, some of the baptised children's fathers are listed as "John Renshaw the Youngez, butcher and his wife Ann" and "John Renshaw the Eldez, butcher and his wife Ann" -
Does this mean there were two brothers, both butchers, with the same name John Renshaw ?
Thankyou in advance
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Younger and Elder
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Firstly the words are "younger" and "elder" and the interpretation, as I understand it, is that of father and son.
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Firstly the words are "younger" and "elder" and the interpretation, as I understand it, is that of father and son.
That's what I thought until I re-read the post. Both were baptising children in the 1750s and both had a wife called Anne. It seems unlikely.
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I wonder whether they were cousins, both in the family business?
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In my youth, both my mother and my gran (her mother-in-law) used the same butcher.
Mum was always referred to as Mrs. Garrad, the younger!
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An example of these baptisms:
1759 - Stretford
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I should have also added that it is quite feasible that father and son are procreating in the same timescale, and that the mothers' forename is coincidental.
I have a lot of gentlemen with the forename Thomas and they all seemed to marry Mary. :o A mammoth task to sort them out.
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I should have also added that it is quite feasible that father and son are procreating in the same timescale, and that the mothers' forename is coincidental.
I have a lot of gentlemen with the forename Thomas and they all seemed to marry Mary. :o A mammoth task to sort them out.
My Edward Joneses all seem to marry Janes
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:) Yes, definitely Younger and Elder and
:) Yes, those two labels are describing the relationship and
:) Yes it is likely to be father and son, BUT
:) it may also be worth checking:
:D first cousins ... or
:D uncle and nephew or
:D others on same branch.
The age difference between Younger and Elder does not need to be a generation or more.
Even in my lifetime, I have been shopping with my husband's Gran and also with my mother in law, and several sisters in law. Mother in law's sons are all known by their second given names. That is because each of them, when their dad registered their births followed his family practices and so first given name is always John.
So, in rural New South Wales, in the 1970s Mrs John SURNAME Senior, accompanied by Mrs John SURNAME Junior and Mrs John SURNAME the Elder, and Mrs John SURNAME the Younger and Mrs John SURNAME the Other Younger, would all shop together. I can assure you that we never experienced any mismatching of orders, Senior was mother in law of Junior, and Junior was mother in law of Elder and of two of us then Younger ones. but then again, we were shopping for supplies etc to cover 4 to 6 weeks and longer. None of us went anywhere near a butcher. Afterall, the fat lambs were the livestock on the family farms.
Now those of us still alive are no longer distinguished by labels reflecting our husband's given names. And our generation has likely overlooked explaining the practice of labelling relationships with elder/younger, or senior/junior or 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or I, II, III, IV etc.
JM
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Hi
The quote Elder or Younger would indicate a second marriage for the elder John, probably by Licence.
Do not know your family but suggest that the marriage 17th August 1746 Manchester
John Renshaw = Ann Holbrook of Stretford married by Licence, is the second marriage for John Snr.
He then produces in Stretford
Henry 1748. No status mentioned
Robert 1752 no status mentioned
(After sons marriage 1755)
Robert 1759 status elder
Then his son John Jnr marries Ann Gibbon 8.2.1755 and produces
Betty 1755 status John younger
James 1757. “. “. “
There is one exception that is a Betty 1756 no status given.
Think the vicar did a good job is separating the children.
There may be other children for both couples, but hope this explains the necessity for elder and
Younger.
Spendlove
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Firstly the words are "younger" and "elder" and the interpretation, as I understand it, is that of father and son.
That's what I thought until I re-read the post. Both were baptising children in the 1750s and both had a wife called Anne. It seems unlikely.
I agree with BumbleB as I've come across the same (not my own family but one I helped with), except the Minister wasn't so obliging with Younger/Elder or similar to help.
Annie