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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Tikva on Friday 22 January 21 08:52 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I'm not sure if this is possible, but I'm hoping that someone could assist me with a number of lookups for sisters that I'm struggling to find out what happened to. I am needing to do this as a process of elimination, due to not knowing for sure who my great grandmother's parents were (long story). I'm not sure if Marriage lookups show the names of the parents, but if they do, then their parents are William Henry Clark and Emma, nee Keen/Keene. The sisters names are:
Clara Clark, born 1 July 1874
Eliza Clark, born 25 May 1877
Helen Clark, born 13 Feb 1884
Alice Clark, born 21 Nov 1885
They were all born in the Mosgiel, Otago area, so were possibly married there as well. I did find an entry for Eliza marrying a Bunten, but further research indicated that this was a different Eliza Clark. Any assistance would be most appreciated. Thank you.
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No, the index does not show parents.
For instance this was the result looking for marriages for a Clara Clark between 1890 & 1920
1912/4470 Maud Clara Clark Albert William Heissenbuttle
1916/1885 Clara Adeline Clark Walter Herbert Martin
1902/4225 Clara Clark William McAuslin
1906/4416 Clara Augusta Clark William Henri Sherwood
If you know for sure yours didn’t have any other names, then she could be the one who married William McAuslin. There might be newspaper notices too.
What about looking for your GG grandmother’s birth certificate? Did she grow up with a different surname?
Do you know the year she was born (to narrow the range for searches.).
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Thank you for your response - I've been using the BMD website in the hopes of finding the answers I need, but nothing concrete so far. For some reason I thought that some members have access to other Marriage records (possibly on CD?) that did include additional information. I can't look at GGgrandmother's birth certificate, as I do not know for sure who she was, or who GG grandfather was.
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how have you arrived at the Clark sisters?
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how have you arrived at the Clark sisters?
DNA matches have lead me to this particular family, but I'm needing to find a way to confirm the connection.
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In 1896 Eliza Clark of Whare Flat went to court for a maintenance order.
Father James McHardy.
Added. Sorry, it’s two different ones! One in 1903
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD18961022.2.23?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=Eliza+clark&snippet=true&title=ESD%2cOW%2cSOCR
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD19030702.2.59?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=Eliza+clark&snippet=true&title=ESD%2cOW%2cSOCR
Added further...is yours the “seeking Lillian” tree on Ancestry?
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In 1896 Eliza Clark of Whare Flat went to court for a maintenance order.
Father James McHardy.
Added. Sorry, it’s two different ones! One in 1903
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD18961022.2.23?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=Eliza+clark&snippet=true&title=ESD%2cOW%2cSOCR
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD19030702.2.59?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=Eliza+clark&snippet=true&title=ESD%2cOW%2cSOCR
Thank you so much for that, as I knew Eliza had a son born in 1903 (can't find his birth record!) but had no idea who the father might be. His name was Eric Clark, and he died in 1911. It was from his Death printout that I found out Eliza was his mother.
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Could this be the child referred to in the 1896 newspaper report? [reply # 5 ]
1896/12659 Clark Albert Eliza NR
Actual date of birth:7.9.1896.
Minniehaha.
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For some reason I thought that some members have access to other Marriage records (possibly on CD?) that did include additional information.
No, no additional information, CD is just the transcription of same information that is on the BDM website.
Cheers
KHP
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What about school enrolment records ? NOK guardian etc.
Alan
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Where does William Henry Clark comes from?
None of the registrations you have provided show a second Christian name for the father:
1884/14118 Clark Helen Emma William
1877/5674 Clark Eliza Emma William
1874/39485 Clark Clara Clark Emma William
1886/4199 Clark Alice Emma William
[All the same, I am aware that full names were not always shown at registration.]
Minniehaha.
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Here Minnie
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW19200420.2.119?end_date=31-12-1920&items_per_page=10&query=William+Henry+clark&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1920&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
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What about school enrolment records ? NOK guardian etc.
Alan
With the school records, you have to take the information with a grain of salt, sometimes, it was a sibling or neighbour, if the parent was too busy to take them on the first day, often the infomation given e.g. birthday was slightly out of kilter.
Cheers
KHP
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Here Minnie
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW19200420.2.119?end_date=31-12-1920&items_per_page=10&query=William+Henry+clark&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1920&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
As well as in this Death Notice, the middle name Henry is also on his christening record in England. :)
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What about school enrolment records ? NOK guardian etc.
Alan
I spent some time at the Hocken Library yesterday, and managed to find school records for most of the children :)
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Could this be the child referred to in the 1896 newspaper report? [reply # 5 ]
1896/12659 Clark Albert Eliza NR
Actual date of birth:7.9.1896.
Minniehaha.
Certainly could be! Will do some research and find out - thank you!
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What about school enrolment records ? NOK guardian etc.
Alan
With the school records, you have to take the information with a grain of salt, sometimes, it was a sibling or neighbour, if the parent was too busy to take them on the first day, often the infomation given e.g. birthday was slightly out of kilter.
Cheers
KHP
Yes, I did notice that with the school records I was looking at yesterday.
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Here Minnie
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW19200420.2.119?end_date=31-12-1920&items_per_page=10&query=William+Henry+clark&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1920&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
Thanks for that Mckha :)
Minniehaha.
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Cemetery Details
Surname CLARK
Forename WILLIAM H
Age 77 Years
Gender Male
Date of Death 12 Apr 1920
Last Address HALF WAY BUSH
Next of Kin
Funeral Director Hope And Sons, P O Box 5013, Andersons Bay, DUNEDIN
Cemetery ANDERSONS BAY CEMETERY
Location Block 20. Plot 129
Date of Burial 14 Apr 1920
Type Burial
Occupation
Place of Birth
Date of Birth Not recorded
Notes Original reference:- A19200407
Occupation:- FARMER
The following burials are also in this Plot
CLARK EMMA 92 Years, Burial, Died 31 Jan 1942
CLARK ERIC 8 Years, Burial, Died 19 Apr 1911
Added: Includes headstone photograph.
https://www.dunedin.govt.nz/services/cemeteries/cemeteries-search?recordid=750&type=Burial
Minniehaha.
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Death notice for Emma......
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19420202.2.2?end_date=31-12-1943&items_per_page=10&page=2&query=emma+clark&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1942&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
Minniehaha.
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Could this be the child referred to in the 1896 newspaper report? [reply # 5 ]
1896/12659 Clark Albert Eliza NR
Actual date of birth:7.9.1896.
Minniehaha.
Could this be the wee lad?
School Records (APWs)
Name : CLARK Albert
School : Timaru Main
Register Number : 964
Admission Date : 1 Feb 1904
Parent / Guardian : Mrs MCAUSLIN
Address : Arthur St
Birthdate : 07 Sep 1896
Last School : Whare Flat
It fits with the 2nd link in Reply #5. of Whare Flat.
Cheers
KHP
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Could this be the child referred to in the 1896 newspaper report? [reply # 5 ]
1896/12659 Clark Albert Eliza NR
Actual date of birth:7.9.1896.
Minniehaha.
Could this be the wee lad?
School Records (APWs)
Name : CLARK Albert
School : Timaru Main
Register Number : 964
Admission Date : 1 Feb 1904
Parent / Guardian : Mrs MCAUSLIN
Address : Arthur St
Birthdate : 07 Sep 1896
Last School : Whare Flat
It fits with the 2nd link in Reply #5. of Whare Flat.
Cheers
KHP
Definitely! Mrs McAuslin is (I beieve) Eliza Clark's sister, Clara, who married William McAuslin. Thank you very much for that.
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Could this be the child referred to in the 1896 newspaper report? [reply # 5 ]
1896/12659 Clark Albert Eliza NR
Actual date of birth:7.9.1896.
Minniehaha.
Could this be the wee lad?
School Records (APWs)
Name : CLARK Albert
School : Timaru Main
Register Number : 964
Admission Date : 1 Feb 1904
Parent / Guardian : Mrs MCAUSLIN
Address : Arthur St
Birthdate : 07 Sep 1896
Last School : Whare Flat
It fits with the 2nd link in Reply #5. of Whare Flat.
Cheers
KHP
Do you have access to school records, as I've been trying to find some for:
Alice Clark, born 1885
Lucy Clark, born 1888 (died 1902)
And also for their older two half sisters:
Louisa Jane Keen/Clark, born 1866 (in England)
Ann Linkhorn (?) Keen/Clark, born 1867, England
Apparently Emma Keen had the latter two daughters prior to her marriage with William Henry Clark, so both surnames have been used for them in various records.
Many thanks.
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Cemetery Details
Surname CLARK
Forename WILLIAM H
Age 77 Years
Gender Male
Date of Death 12 Apr 1920
Last Address HALF WAY BUSH
Next of Kin
Funeral Director Hope And Sons, P O Box 5013, Andersons Bay, DUNEDIN
Cemetery ANDERSONS BAY CEMETERY
Location Block 20. Plot 129
Date of Burial 14 Apr 1920
Type Burial
Occupation
Place of Birth
Date of Birth Not recorded
Notes Original reference:- A19200407
Occupation:- FARMER
The following burials are also in this Plot
CLARK EMMA 92 Years, Burial, Died 31 Jan 1942
CLARK ERIC 8 Years, Burial, Died 19 Apr 1911
Added: Includes headstone photograph.
https://www.dunedin.govt.nz/services/cemeteries/cemeteries-search?recordid=750&type=Burial
Minniehaha.
Thank you Minniehaha - that is information that I've already found.
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https://www.timaru.govt.nz/services/community-and-culture/cemeteries/cemetery-search?BurialId=6013
• McAuslin, Clara 26 Mar 1937 - Timaru Cemetery
• McAuslin, William 13 Jul 1934 - Timaru Cemetery
Minniehaha.
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Do you have access to school records, as I've been trying to find some for:
Will have a look and get back to you.
Cheers
KHP
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Do you have access to school records, as I've been trying to find some for:
Will have a look and get back to you.
Cheers
KHP
Apologies for asking more of you, but if you could also see if you can find any school records for a Lilian Clark/Clarke, birth year currently unknown, although could be circa 1888 to 1892. She is my great grandmother, and her parentage is currently unknown, although DNA is indicating that she *might* be one of the daughters of William Henry Clark and Emma, nee Keen/Keene. Thanks so much!
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Alice Clark, born 1885
Lucy Clark, born 1888 (died 1902)
Can't see anything for Mosgiel, in saying that, transcribing of records is still on-going and not available to me. Perhaps, get in touch with the Dunedin Branch of NZSG, to see what little nuggets of information they have for the family.
Louisa Jane Keen/Clark, born 1866 (in England)
Ann Linkhorn (?) Keen/Clark, born 1867, England
Perhaps with the age gap, they were out of schooling by the time their siblings attended. At this point of time, I can't see anything, but perhaps Dunedin might have something.
Lilian Clark/Clarke
Had a look under Clark/Clarke ... Lilian/Lillian, Mosgiel isn't popping out, and there are records that don't even have a birth date.
As mentioned above fire an email off to Dunedin, you may never know what information they have until you ask.
Cheers
KHP
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KEENE, LOUISA JANE -
GRO Reference: 1866 S Quarter in HIGHWORTH Volume 05A Page 2
KING, ANN LINKHORN -
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in SWINDON Volume 05A Page 2 Occasional Copy: A
Louisa Jane Keene born 2nd July 1866
Ann Linkhorn Keene born 22 Sep 1869
Baptism 13 Oct 1872 Stratton St Margaret, Wiltshire
Mother: Emma, single woman
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Lilian Clark/Clarke
Had a look under Clark/Clarke ... Lilian/Lillian, Mosgiel isn't popping out, and there are records that don't even have a birth date.
As mentioned above fire an email off to Dunedin, you may never know what information they have until you ask.
Cheers
KHP
Thank you very much for looking those up for me - will touch base with the Dunedin NZSG next week.
With Lilian, it is quite possible that her school record would not be in the Mosgiel area, and there has been mention in the family of a Canterbury connection, so if you find any Lilian Clark/Clarkes that you think might be relevant, it would be great if you could let me know. We're not sure why, but the surname Foley has also been associated with Lilian - on her son's Marriage record.
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KEENE, LOUISA JANE -
GRO Reference: 1866 S Quarter in HIGHWORTH Volume 05A Page 2
KING, ANN LINKHORN -
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in SWINDON Volume 05A Page 2 Occasional Copy: A
Louisa Jane Keene born 2nd July 1866
Ann Linkhorn Keene born 22 Sep 1869
Baptism 13 Oct 1872 Stratton St Margaret, Wiltshire
Mother: Emma, single woman
Thank you Ladyhawk - had found those and ordered a PDF copy :)
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Looked under Keen/Keene/Clark........
Marriage:
1895/2178 Louisa Jane Keen Benjamin Dickinson
Death:
1949/22163 Dickinson Louisa Jane 82Y
??
Minniehaha.
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Death notice for the above mentioned Louisa Jane: [her age fits]..
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AG19490603.2.2.1?end_date=31-12-1949&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=louisa+jane&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1949
Minniehaha.
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Maybe??
Marriage:
1890/1713 Ann Keen Andrew Bringans
Death:
1940/22751 Bringans Ann 70Y
Death notice:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19400115.2.24?end_date=31-12-1940&items_per_page=10&query=ann+bringans&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1940
Cemetery details:
Surname BRINGANS
Forename ANN
Age 70 Years
Gender Female
Date of Death 13 Jan 1940
Last Address 50 ESKVALE ST, ST KILDA, DN
Next of Kin
Funeral Director Hope And Sons, P O Box 5013, Andersons Bay, DUNEDIN
Cemetery ANDERSONS BAY CEMETERY
Location Block 94. Plot 53
Date of Burial 15 Jan 1940
Type Ashes Burial
Occupation
Place of Birth
Date of Birth Not recorded
Notes Original reference:- C194001005
Occupation:- MARRIED
Native of:- ENGLAND
Years in NZ:- 68
Place died:- 22 BRIDGMAN ST
The following burials are also in this Plot
BRINGANS ANDREW 89 Years, Ashes Burial, Died 29 Jan 1955
BRINGANS ANDREW DEWAR 25 Years, Burial, Died 21 May 1922
GROVES LILIAN MAY 106 Years, Ashes Burial, Died 18 Apr 2000
GROVES MARY 5 Days, Burial, Died 21 Sep 1931
GROVES WILLIAM ANDREW 66 Years, Ashes Burial, Died 11 Oct 1995
GROVES WILLIAM HENRY 69 Years, Ashes Burial, Died 6 Mar 1968
Headstone images for this Plot
https://www.dunedin.govt.nz/services/cemeteries/cemeteries-search?recordid=40380&type=Ashes%20Burial
Minniehaha.
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1929/1134 Lilian May Bringans William Henry Groves
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Only these three births showing
1891/11886 Bringans Alexander Ann Andrew
1897/7439 Bringans Andrew Dewar Ann Andrew
1895/1649 Bringans Laura Estella Ann Andrew
Although Bringans lends itself to transcriber error.
Added
1894/1622 Bringams Lilian May Ann Andrew
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Death notice for the above mentioned Louisa Jane: [her age fits]..
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AG19490603.2.2.1?end_date=31-12-1949&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=louisa+jane&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1949
Minniehaha.
I believe there is a Probate held at Wellington, as Archway is down at moment, of typing this, not sure if it has been digitalized.
Added, looking on Familysearch I think the Will (exuse the pun), will have to be a look up.
Cheers
KHP
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Thank you everyone for all the helpful responses - if I don't reply to yours directly, please know that it is most appreciated, and I am following up the information provided :)
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Husband of Louisa Jane-[with an additional Christian name]...
Dickinson, Benjamin Shaw
Record Details
Address Unknown
Age at Death 87
Date of Death 6 Jul 1955
Date of Interment 8 Jul 1955
Cemetery Timaru Cemetery
Section General
Row 51
Plot 245
Locate on Map VIEW MAP
Search for other records in this plot
Photograph of headstone here:
https://www.timaru.govt.nz/services/community-and-culture/cemeteries/cemetery-search?BurialId=18944
Dickinson, Louisa Jane
Record Details
Address Unknown
Age at Death 82
Date of Death 2 Jun 1949
Date of Interment 4 Jun 1949
Cemetery Timaru Cemetery
Section General
Row 51
Plot 245
Minniehaha.
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Probated will of Benjamin Shaw Dickinson:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9SD-49XC?i=15&cc=1865481&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AKDTS-S1J
Minniehaha.
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Are you able to give all the details on the son's marriage record that you mentioned in reply #29
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Names mentioned in the will of Benjamin Shaw Dickinson:
Deaths:
1985/41978 David Vera May 16 April 1899
1979/43608 Dickinson Norman John 21 November 1897
Marriage:
1928/5919 Vera May Dickinson Frank Sampson David
I have a death notice for a grandchild mentioned in the will. If you wish I can send it to you....
Minniehaha.
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Are you able to give all the details on the son's marriage record that you mentioned in reply #29
I have a copy of the printout in PDF format, but not sure if I'm allowed to post that here. Also, it was a daughter's marriage, not a sons, so apologies for that!
In this printout, the mother's name is recorded as Lilian Foley, although why we're not sure. The marriage occurred in 1938, between John Anderson and Laura Mitchell in December. Happy to send you the PDF if that helps. Keep in mind that my great grandfather, who married Lilian, changed their surname by deedpoll from Oxley to Mitchell......
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They are deceased??
1938/11968 Laura Mitchell John Gilbert Thomas Anderson
Minniehaha.
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They are deceased??
1938/11968 Laura Mitchell John Gilbert Thomas Anderson
Minniehaha.
Yes they are.
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So this birth comes up when you search for Oxley
1921/11568 Mitchell Norman Stewart Lilian George Alfred
Added
1921/11568 Mitchell Norman Stewart Lilian George Alfred
1913/11617 Oxley Mary Lilian George Alfred
1916/11649 Oxley Leslie George Lilian George Alfred
1934/17846 Oxley Lilian Lilian George Alfred
1915/4754 Oxley Laura Lilian George Alfred
What do any of their birth certificates show?
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And what does this marriage certificate tell you?
1911/1766 Lilian Clarke George Alfred Oxley
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And what does this marriage certificate tell you?
1911/1766 Lilian Clarke George Alfred Oxley
That Lilian was apparently born in England, and was 21 years old at the time of her marriage. No parents names or any other information, other than that she was a Cook, which we knew. She gives a variety of ages at the births of her 6 children, and DNA seems to be showing that she was most likely NOT born in England. So, we are guessing that there's been some kind of break down in her relationship with her family.
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Have I got this right then?
You know for sure that “Lilian Clark” who married George Alfred Oxley is your ancestor.
If so can you please post all the details from each certificate you have. In detail, as they are on the certs, including the witnesses at the marriage.
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Have I got this right then?
You know for sure that “Lilian Clark” who married George Alfred Oxley is your ancestor.
If so can you please post all the details from each certificate you have. In detail, as they are on the certs, including the witnesses at the marriage.
Yes, I know for sure that Lilian Clark who married George Oxley is my ancestor. However, given that Lilian gives a number of different ages, which indicate her birth is somewhere between 1888 and 1892 (when the births of her children were registered) and that on her death certificate she is recorded as being 58 when she died in 1950, it is basically impossible to determine anything from them. I also only have the birth printouts for 5 of her children. However, if you think they might be of some help, I'm happy to provide them. I also put together a spreadsheet showing the various ages she claimed to be when her children were born/registered in the hopes of narrowing down her birth year, and can also provide this.
Edited to Add - no witnesses are recorded on the Marriage certificate.
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no witnesses are recorded on the Marriage certificate.
Query for Minniehaha and KHP...is that something you have heard of happening before?
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I was just about to query that Mckha. No I have not heard of that! Is the document legal??
Who was the official who performed the ceremony?? And where??
Minniehaha.
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Like Minnie, I haven't heard of that either.
Just thinking out loud here, and we all think differently, wondering why the name change from Oxley to Mitchell, wonder if there was a reason, could he have been a naughty boy? Could be any number of reasons why. That is my thought for today. :D
Cheers
KHP
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I’ve just found the marriage cert on a tree on Ancestry. It is NOT a printout.
Do you have the print out which should have much more information on it.
Ie
Bride and Groom
When and where married
Name and surname of the parties
Ages
Rank or profession
Condition of parties
Bachelor or spinster (or as case may be)
If widow or widower date of death of former wife or husband
Birthplace
Residence: Present, Usual
Parents
Father's name and surname
Father's rank or profession
Mothers name and Maiden surname
Signatures
Bride and groom
Witnesses
Officiating minister (or Registrar)
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Like Minnie, I haven't heard of that either.
Just thinking out loud here, and we all think differently, wondering why the name change from Oxley to Mitchell, wonder if there was a reason, could he have been a naughty boy? Could be any number of reasons why. That is my thought for today. :D
Cheers
KHP
Apparently George's father was violent, and his mother with his siblings fled Australia to New Zealand, and that's why the name change. Although why it was done so many years later I do not know.
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Apparently George's father was violent, and his mother with his siblings fled Australia to New Zealand, and that's why the name change. Although why it was done so many years later I do not know.
Here is the answer, to my thoughts, scroll down to Legal Notices:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19310721.2.95.2?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=george+alfred+mitchell&snippet=true
Posting for others, I realise you might have seen it.
Cheers
KHP
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I’ve just found the marriage cert on a tree on Ancestry. It is NOT a printout.
Do you have the print out which should have much more information on it.
Ie
Bride and Groom
When and where married
Name and surname of the parties
Ages
Rank or profession
Condition of parties
Bachelor or spinster (or as case may be)
If widow or widower date of death of former wife or husband
Birthplace
Residence: Present, Usual
Parents
Father's name and surname
Father's rank or profession
Mothers name and Maiden surname
Signatures
Bride and groom
Witnesses
Officiating minister (or Registrar)
No, it is not a printout - the birth records for 5 of the children are printouts that I do have. I have a copy of that certificate. However, believe me when I say that numerous descendants have tried to find out who Lilian's ancestors were, and no one was able to obtain any useful information from any documents. I'm pretty sure I also found the church record of their marriage some time ago, and it also offered no helpful information in regards to Lilian.
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I also enquired some time ago as to whether or not an Intention to Marry existed for George and Lilian, but it did not.
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I found the printout of the marriage that was sent to me some time ago by a relative, and the witnesses are George's brother and mother. Image attached
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The death of the same George Alfred Mitchell?
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19460408.2.18.1?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=george+alfred+mitchell&snippet=true
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD19460408.2.43?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=george+alfred+mitchell&snippet=true
Minniehaha.
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The death of the same George Alfred Mitchell?
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19460408.2.18.1?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=george+alfred+mitchell&snippet=true
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD19460408.2.43?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=george+alfred+mitchell&snippet=true
Minniehaha.
Yes, I have a lot of information on George - poor man had cancer and decided he'd rather die on how own terms.......... :(
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Well, if her parents were said to be “not known” it does seem very odd, considering that if she really belongs to William and Emma Clark family, it was a large Dunedin/Halfway Bush family with ship antecedents “Hindoustan” . I cannot believe that people in the area, considering the population at the time, would not have known who she was.
Totals, City of Dunedin and Suburbs 64,237
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You will have this cemetery link but it may be useful to others still searching:
https://www.dunedin.govt.nz/services/cemeteries/cemeteries-search?recordid=64664&type=Burial
Headstone photographs included.
Minniehaha.
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Well, if her parents were said to be “not known” it does seem very odd, considering that if she really belongs to William and Emma Clark family, it was a large Dunedin/Halfway Bush family with ship antecedents “Hindoustan” . I cannot believe that people in the area, considering the population at the time, would not have known who she was.
Totals, City of Dunedin and Suburbs 64,237
Believe me, I know how odd it all is, but the DNA evidence DOES seem to be pointing towards them being her parents, or if not them, then one of their 13 daughters may have been. Also, Lilian very rarely left her home in Brick Hill, Sawyers Bay, and some of us do wonder if she had agoraphobia. She did mention a sister that had died young, and that it was something to do with her heart......
One of William and Emma's daughters, Lucy Clark, died at the age of 14 from Rheutmatic Fever and Valvular Disease of the Heart.......
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I am attaching a Chart that I've put together using DNA Matches, which might explain why I'm leaning towards William and Emma being Lilian's parents.
Edited to add that I've removed first names of some of the individuals to prevent them from being identified
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Lilian's death:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19500626.2.60?end_date=31-12-1950&items_per_page=10&query=+mitchell+death&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1950&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19500624.2.2.4?end_date=31-07-1950&items_per_page=10&query=+lilian+mitchell&snippet=true&start_date=01-06-1950&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
Estate:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19500708.2.148.1?end_date=31-07-1950&items_per_page=10&query=+lilian+mitchell&snippet=true&start_date=01-06-1950&title=AHCOG%2cBH%2cCL%2cCROMARG%2cDUNST%2cESD%2cLCM%2cLCP%2cLWM%2cME%2cMIC%2cMTBM%2cNOT%2cOAM%2cODT%2cOW%2cOSWCC%2cSOCR%2cST%2cTT%2cWSTAR
Minniehaha.
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Well, that DNA chart certainly looks as if you are on the right track.
So Of the first 4 names you asked about.
Clara is sorted.
Eliza had at least two illegitimate sons, but both were kept in family so it seems unlikely she would have ditched a daughter.
2 to go
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Well, that DNA chart certainly looks as if you are on the right track.
So Of the first 4 names you asked about.
Clara is sorted.
Eliza had at least two illegitimate sons, but both were kept in family so it seems unlikely she would have ditched a daughter.
2 to go
Yes, my thinking too. Alice Clark and Helen Clark. There are school records for Helen, but none whatsoever for Alice,and no death or marriage record that I can find. So, I'm wondering if Alice is in fact Lilian - if there was a family break down, then she may have used a different first name, or been given one by a family that took care of her for a time. Lilian did mention something about staying with a Catholic family, but we do not know for how long, or at what age she went there, if in fact she did. It's hard when you get to a point where you can't trust anything that an ancestor told their children...........
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Lilian's probated will......
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9RL-1S4Y?i=79&cc=1865481&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQK9V-PF28
Is this her son??
2006/661 Mitchell Leslie George 19 January 1916
Minniehaha.
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Lilian's probated will......
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9RL-1S4Y?i=79&cc=1865481&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQK9V-PF28
Is this her son??
2006/661 Mitchell Leslie George 19 January 1916
Minniehaha.
Yes, that is hers and George's son.
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Surname MITCHELL
Forename Leslie George
Age 89 Years
Gender Male
Date of Death 1 Jan 2006
Last Address 7 Brick Hill Road, Sawyers Bay, Dunedin
Next of Kin
Funeral Director Hope And Sons, P O Box 5013, Andersons Bay, DUNEDIN
Cemetery PORT CHALMERS CEMETERY
Location Block SFP. Plot 11
Date of Burial 12 Jan 2008
Type Ashes Burial
Occupation
Place of Birth
Date of Birth 19 Jan 1916
Notes Occupation; Farmer
Birth Place: Port Chalmers, Dunedin, Otago, NZ
The following burials are also in this Plot
There were none found
Headstone images for this Plot
https://www.dunedin.govt.nz/services/cemeteries/cemeteries-search?recordid=118578&type=Ashes%20Burial
Added: Cenotaph record:
https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/war-memorial/online-cenotaph/record/148441?n=leslie%20george%20mitchell&ordinal=0&from=%2Fwar-memorial%2Fonline-cenotaph%2Fsearch
Minniehaha.
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So, I'm wondering if Alice is in fact Lilian
I was thinking more or less the same, if Lilian was in fact someone else. The name Foley, could she have adopted the surname? Silly question, when you don't know, sorry.
I have one of my Scottish ancestors, who was baptised with one name, and according to a tree, she has two other middle names, which is strange, considering they don't follow the naming pattern, so I do understand the struggle you have.
Cheers
KHP
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Well, that DNA chart certainly looks as if you are on the right track.
So Of the first 4 names you asked about.
Clara is sorted.
Eliza had at least two illegitimate sons, but both were kept in family so it seems unlikely she would have ditched a daughter.
2 to go
Yes, my thinking too. Alice Clark and Helen Clark. There are school records for Helen, but none whatsoever for Alice,and no death or marriage record that I can find. So, I'm wondering if Alice is in fact Lilian - if there was a family break down, then she may have used a different first name, or been given one by a family that took care of her for a time. Lilian did mention something about staying with a Catholic family, but we do not know for how long, or at what age she went there, if in fact she did. It's hard when you get to a point where you can't trust anything that an ancestor told their children...........
As an update to this, I believe that I may have found a marriage record for Alice Clark. Before I send away for a Marriage Printout, I wondered if anyone has access to church records that might confirm that this particular marriage is for Alice Clark, daughter of William Henry Clark and Emma, nee Keen, as that information can often appear on those records. Here's the entry on BDM:
Registration No. 1918/2049 Alice Clark m James Fairbairn Davidson
James died in 1929, after which Alice married an Arthur Geeson, and she died in 1957 as Alice Geeson. If this is in fact the right Alice, then it could indicate that Helen Clark is in fact my great grandmother, who went by the name Lilian Clark. Many thanks for any assistance.
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The marriage was on 21 May 1918 which was a Tuesday. Suspect it may have been at a registry office.
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Not a lot of help ....
Alice GEESON - died 19 February 1957 aged 71 years - buried Anderson's Bay Cemetery, Dunedin (with James Fairbairn DAVIDSON - d. 1929):
Burial register for Anderson's Bay Cemetery states Alice was born at Mosgiel.
~ Lu
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And what does this marriage certificate tell you?
1911/1766 Lilian Clarke George Alfred Oxley
That Lilian was apparently born in England, and was 21 years old at the time of her marriage. No parents names or any other information, other than that she was a Cook, which we knew. She gives a variety of ages at the births of her 6 children, and DNA seems to be showing that she was most likely NOT born in England. So, we are guessing that there's been some kind of break down in her relationship with her family.
??? Does this mean that Lilian was the person registering (or acting as informant) at the births of her 6 children ??
If so, then what "place of birth" does she give for herself on these birth documents ??
~ Lu
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According to this link the 1918 marriage took place in Dunedin.....
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Davidson-1669
Minniehaha.
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And what does this marriage certificate tell you?
1911/1766 Lilian Clarke George Alfred Oxley
That Lilian was apparently born in England, and was 21 years old at the time of her marriage. No parents names or any other information, other than that she was a Cook, which we knew. She gives a variety of ages at the births of her 6 children, and DNA seems to be showing that she was most likely NOT born in England. So, we are guessing that there's been some kind of break down in her relationship with her family.
??? Does this mean that Lilian was the person registering (or acting as informant) at the births of her 6 children ??
If so, then what "place of birth" does she give for herself on these birth documents ??
~ Lu
I'm not at my own residence at the moment and all that information is on my PC, but as far as I can recall, her husband George was the person who registered the births of their children. However, Lilian did record her place of birth as England, which DNA has shown was not the case at all, so that's a line I'm no longer pursuing. I've noticed that quite often people whose parents were born in England will often record their place of birth there as well, even though they were actually born here in New Zealand.
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According to this link the 1918 marriage took place in Dunedin.....
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Davidson-1669
Minniehaha.
Thank you Minniehaha. I have ordered their Marriage printout and hope that will confirm that this is 'our' Alice Clark :)
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As an update to this, ........ I wondered if anyone has access to church records that might confirm that this particular marriage is for Alice Clark, daughter of William Henry Clark and Emma, nee Keen, ..... Here's the entry on BDM:
Registration No. 1918/2049 Alice Clark m James Fairbairn Davidson
James died in 1929, after which Alice married an Arthur Geeson, and she died in 1957 as Alice Geeson. If this is in fact the right Alice, then it could indicate that Helen Clark is in fact my great grandmother, who went by the name Lilian Clark. .....
Tikva ... I have some information for "Helen CLARK" (which also touches upon "Alice CLARK" and others of the "William Henry CLARK / Emma KEENE" family ).
I plan to add here, all I've found, as the info may at some time, assist others who are following this particular CLARK line. ;)
Helen CLARK (born 1884) did marry ... although it appears she and her husband had no children.
NZ Marriage
Nellie CLARK -- James Campbell SMITH* -- 1914
[* Born as James Kerr SMITH (at Dunedin), also known at times as James Kerr SMITH ]
Place of marriage not yet known (both appear to have lived all their lives at Dunedin.)
~ Lu
see following posts > >
-
As an update to this, ........ I wondered if anyone has access to church records that might confirm that this particular marriage is for Alice Clark, daughter of William Henry Clark and Emma, nee Keen, ..... Here's the entry on BDM:
Registration No. 1918/2049 Alice Clark m James Fairbairn Davidson
James died in 1929, after which Alice married an Arthur Geeson, and she died in 1957 as Alice Geeson. If this is in fact the right Alice, then it could indicate that Helen Clark is in fact my great grandmother, who went by the name Lilian Clark. .....
Tikva ... I have some information for "Helen CLARK" (which also touches upon "Alice CLARK" and others of the "William Henry CLARK / Emma KEENE" family ).
I plan to add here, all I've found, as the info may at some time, assist others who are following this particular CLARK line. ;)
Helen CLARK (born 1884) did marry ... although it appears she and her husband had no children.
NZ Marriage
Nellie CLARK -- James Campbell SMITH* -- 1914
[* Born as James Kerr SMITH (at Dunedin), also known at times as James Kerr SMITH ]
Place of marriage not yet known (both appear to have lived all their lives at Dunedin.)
~ Lu
see following posts > >
Thanks for that information Lucy2 - I'm curious as to how you know that Helen is Nellie? Also, I've received the printout for Alice Clark who married James Fairbairn Davidson, and she is in fact William and Emma Clark's daughter :)
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Nellie (Helen) SMITH died on 20 May 1960 and is buried with her husband James Kerr SMITH [a.k.a. James Campbell SMITH] :
https://www.dunedin.govt.nz/services/cemeteries/cemeteries-search?recordid=28255&type=Burial
[Photo of headstone ^ at link also. ]
The burial record for Helen SMITH gives her age as 72 (bc 1888) - which is 4 years older than the Helen CLARK (born to Emma and William Henry CLARK in February 1884). ? Her husband James had purchased the plot ... and was probably the informant to her death. His own year of birth was 1888 ... maybe that is where confusion over birth years arose (if of course there was an error? )
continues > >
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Hi tikva ... just spotted your question.
Please just bear with me while I post the remainder of information I have. ;)
I'm just adding this in what I hope is an "easy to follow" order (although the search itself didn't necessarily work out in that manner. )
Several more posts to come. >>>
~ Lu
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Nellie (Helen) SMITH (nee CLARK) - continued,
There was a probate record for Nellie SMITH - 1960 - it didn't however contain info which was helpful to a search in finding her CLARK family.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2SB-H1X8
Note: This lady - from the time of her marriage- at least - was always recorded as Nellie (and not Helen). So probate in name of Nellie / all electoral listings as "Nellie : "Helen" SMITH on NZ BDM death index ... and Helen SMITH on burial index.
continues Next >>
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Nellie (Helen) SMITH - nee CLARK :
As previously mentioned, Nellie and her husband appear not to have had children.
In 1978 Nellie's husband - James Campbell (or James Kerr) SMITH died in Dunedin.
It was his Will (dated 1972), which, in a roundabout way, led to "connecting" to the CLARK family of William Henry CLARK and Emma KEENE.
Link to probate file >
I would ask PLEASE don't reveal in this thread, the name of the young girl to whom a bequest was made. It is very likely she is still living.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=14715181&digital=yes
It transpired that the surname CLARKE (as written in this Will) should in fact have been
"CLARK".
Long story short ... I was eventually able to identify a Dunedin marriage of a man by the name of
Smith Barraclough CLARK to Phyllis Methven MURRAY 1949 : This couple later moved to Tauranga.
[That info though did not immediately help with finding the "Charles CLARKE" mentioned in the Will.
That came later in a marriage notice where "Charlie" is given as the nickname of Smith B. CLARK.]
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19490118.2.2.3
NZ BDM has this birth >
1907 - CLARK - Smith Barraclough
Mother : Alice Father : N/R
The birth was registered at Dunedin. [source - ancestry - NZ Births ]
[A "possible" father of this child may be rather easily found in NZ records - d. NZ but was married 1909 in Aus. ]
~ Lu see next > >
-
Nellie (Helen) SMITH - nee CLARK :
As previously mentioned, Nellie and her husband appear not to have had children.
In 1978 Nellie's husband - James Campbell (or James Kerr) SMITH died in Dunedin.
It was his Will (dated 1972), which, in a roundabout way, led to "connecting" to the CLARK family of William Henry CLARK and Emma KEENE.
Link to probate file >
I would ask PLEASE don't reveal in this thread, the name of the young girl to whom a bequest was made. It is very likely she is still living.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=14715181&digital=yes
It transpired that the surname CLARKE (as written in this Will) should in fact have been
"CLARK".
Long story short ... I was eventually able to identify a Dunedin marriage of a man by the name of
Smith Barraclough CLARK to Phyllis Methven MURRAY 1949 : This couple later moved to Tauranga.
[That info though did not immediately help with finding the "Charles CLARKE" mentioned in the Will.
That came later in a marriage notice where "Charlie" is given as the nickname of Smith B. CLARK.]
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19490118.2.2.3
NZ BDM has this birth >
1907 - CLARK - Smith Barraclough
Mother : Alice Father : N/R
The birth was registered at Dunedin. [source - ancestry - NZ Births ]
[A "possible" father of this child may be rather easily found in NZ records - d. NZ but was married 1909 in Aus. ]
~ Lu see next > >
I think I might need to PM you, as the grand nieces mother was adopted into the Clark/Bringan family, but it is supposed that the adopted child was a daughter of one of the Clark sisters - possibly Helen. Please advise if I should message you privately.
-
Nellie (Helen) SMITH - nee CLARK :
As previously mentioned, Nellie and her husband appear not to have had children.
In 1978 Nellie's husband - James Campbell (or James Kerr) SMITH died in Dunedin.
It was his Will (dated 1972), which, in a roundabout way, led to "connecting" to the CLARK family of William Henry CLARK and Emma KEENE.
Link to probate file >
I would ask PLEASE don't reveal in this thread, the name of the young girl to whom a bequest was made. It is very likely she is still living.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=14715181&digital=yes
It transpired that the surname CLARKE (as written in this Will) should in fact have been
"CLARK".
Long story short ... I was eventually able to identify a Dunedin marriage of a man by the name of
Smith Barraclough CLARK to Phyllis Methven MURRAY 1949 : This couple later moved to Tauranga.
[That info though did not immediately help with finding the "Charles CLARKE" mentioned in the Will.
That came later in a marriage notice where "Charlie" is given as the nickname of Smith B. CLARK.]
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19490118.2.2.3
NZ BDM has this birth >
1907 - CLARK - Smith Barraclough
Mother : Alice Father : N/R
The birth was registered at Dunedin. [source - ancestry - NZ Births ]
[A "possible" father of this child may be rather easily found in NZ records - d. NZ but was married 1909 in Aus. ]
~ Lu see next > >
I think I might need to PM you, as the grand nieces mother was adopted into the Clark/Bringan family, but it is supposed that the adopted child was a daughter of one of the Clark sisters - possibly Helen. Please advise if I should message you privately.
Actually, ignore the above, as it wasn't the grand nieces mother that was adopted into the Clark/Bringan family - she was a daughter of Ann Clark and Andrew Bringan
-
Nellie (Helen) SMITH - (nee CLARK)
Smith Barraclough CLARK appears in the WW2 Nominal rolls (NZ Army) - 1939-40 : He is single, a butcher by occupation, residing at 126 Taieri Road, Kaikorai.
He had given as his Nest-of-Kin -- "Mrs. SMITH, Octagon, Dunedin" :
A search of electoral rolls shows that the only "Mrs SMITH" residing at the Octagon, Dunedin at that time (and for a number of years prior) and up until her death in 1960, was >
Nellie SMITH - married ... and James Campbell SMITH, 31 Octagon
[Incidentally, James C. SMITH was a butcher - wonder if he employed the young Smith B. Clark ?]
* Just pausing here to reply to your incoming message, Tikva * :)
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So it seems there are two connections to the Clark family here Lucy2 - first through the child born to Alice Clark, and secondly in the will, James refers to a Grand Niece who is in fact the grandaughter of Andrew and Ann (nee Clark) Bringans.
This family becomes more and more confusing!
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Okay Tikva ... I see your earlier message (re: great niece) is now no longer relevant ... so I'll continue with my posts - which have yet to connect to other CLARK family members. :)
BUT first ... need a coffee ! ;D Back soon.
~ Lu
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Okay Tikva ... I see your earlier message (re: great niece) is now no longer relevant ... so I'll continue with my posts - which have yet to connect to other CLARK family members. :)
BUT first ... need a coffee ! ;D Back soon.
~ Lu
Goodness! I'm not surprised you need coffee!!! However, the grand niece thing is still relevant, just not in the way that I had originally thought.
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Connection to family of William Henry and Emma CLARK :
Link to WW1 service record - Albert CLARK (born Taieri, Otago - 7 September 1896)
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE24342560
[Incidental : ... you'll see that Albert gives his grandparents names as his parents' names in this record ? ]
At Image # 1 - several changes of address are noted on this first page.
One in particular - 132 Shetland Street, Kaikorai - stands out because the following resided there in 1938.
1938 - Dunedin West roll
CLARK - Charles* - 132 Shetland Street - butcher
also CLARK - Emma ** - Shetland Street - widow (no street number given.)
[* Charles CLARK I think this is really Smith Barraclough CLARK - same occupation and a.k.a. "Charlie" / Charles CLARKE ].
[** Emma CLARK - widow - Shetland Street : Would be inclined to think this is Emma, widow of William Henry CLARK ... being taken care of by her grandson, Smith B. (a.ka. "Charlie" ??]
Emma CLARK died in 1940 1942... funeral notice and burial record don't give her address at time.
[Are there funeral directors in Dunedin who still have records ? ]
~ Lu
Edited to correct date of death.
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Hi Tikva
... grand-niece ... yes, please if you wouldn't mind sending details by PM, would appreciate that.
Largely of course for the sake of a possibly "still-living" person.
May be able then to find other records for this CLARK family.
~ Lu
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Hi Tikva
... grand-niece ... yes, please if you wouldn't mind sending details by PM, would appreciate that.
Largely of course for the sake of a possibly "still-living" person.
May be able then to find other records for this CLARK family.
~ Lu
Neither parties involved are living persons. Jean Devlin, who is mentioned in James Smith's will, is the granddaughter of Ann (nee Clark) and Andrew Bringans. Their daughter, Laura Estella Bringans (aka Stella) married Thomas McLaren, and Jean Devlin (married name) is their daughter.
-
Neither parties involved are living persons. Jean Devlin, who is mentioned in James Smith's will, is the granddaughter of Ann (nee Clark) and Andrew Bringans. Their daughter, Laura Estella Bringans (aka Stella) married Thomas McLaren, and Jean Devlin (married name) is their daughter.
All good ... hadn't looked too hard for Jean DEVLIN - thought in the Will it sounded like she was a niece from his (James' ), side of the family ... so didn't extend search further.
~ Lu
-
CLARK family
Update *
Just looking back over my scrawled notes ...
I hadn't been searching on Emma CLARK (senior) in electoral rolls (nor specifically for "Charles" CLARK - as the "a.k.a. Charlie" representing Smith B. CLARK came later in the piece.)
But re-checking e/rolls for Dunedin West, I can see now that Charles CLARK resided at the 132 Shetland Street address from at least 1928 - 10 years - (1928 was probably when he cast his first electoral vote ). And Emma CLARK, widow, is also at Shetland Street from 1928 (widowed 1920).
Very possible I guess that Charles (a.k.a. Smith B. CLARK) was also raised by Emma (grandmother) ??
~ Lu
-
CLARK family
Update *
Just looking back over my scrawled notes ...
I hadn't been searching on Emma CLARK (senior) in electoral rolls (nor specifically for "Charles" CLARK - as the "a.k.a. Charlie" representing Smith B. CLARK came later in the piece.)
But re-checking e/rolls for Dunedin West, I can see now that Charles CLARK resided at the 132 Shetland Street address from at least 1928 - 10 years - (1928 was probably when he cast his first electoral vote ). And Emma CLARK, widow, is also at Shetland Street from 1928 (widowed 1920).
Very possible I guess that Charles (a.k.a. Smith B. CLARK) was also raised by Emma (grandmother) ??
~ Lu
All I can say at this point is - WOW. My head is spinning, and I'm amazed at how you've been able to work all of this out. I can't thank you enough Lucy2! Here I was assuming that my great grandmother, Lilian Clark, was aka Helen Clark, but apparently not. DNA is showing that she is either a daughter or granddaughter of William Clark, but I've yet to confirm a DNA link to Emma Clark, nee Keen. I have just last night ordered a DNA Test Kit for a descendant of one of Emma's illegitimate daughters that she had prior to her marriage to William Clark, so hopefully that will either confirm Emma as a relative or eliminate her.
Thank you so much! But, there is still one more daughter I don't know what happened to, and that is Eliza Clark, the birth mother of Albert Clark (whom you mentioned earlier), as well as Eric Clark. If, once you've recovered from all of this incredible research of Helen/Nellie, you feel up to looking into Eliza, that would be the last daughter that I need to find out what happened to.
-
If, once you've recovered from all of this incredible research of Helen/Nellie, you feel up to looking into Eliza, that would be the last daughter that I need to find out what happened to.
I am sure Lucy will, as she likes to get all of the washing off the line and folded away! :D
Cheers
KHP
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If, once you've recovered from all of this incredible research of Helen/Nellie, you feel up to looking into Eliza, that would be the last daughter that I need to find out what happened to.
I am sure Lucy will, as she likes to get all of the washing off the line and folded away! :D
Cheers
KHP
;D ;D ;D ;D
Thankfully for myself and my Mum (granddaughter of Lilian!) that is the case. There's no way I would have been able to figure out all this myself!
-
??? Does this mean that Lilian was the person registering (or acting as informant) at the births of her 6 children ??
If so, then what "place of birth" does she give for herself on these birth documents ??
~ Lu
Hi Lucy2, I'm back home now and can provide the information.
Firstly, for the 5 Birth Printouts I have, the father, George Alfred Oxley (aka Mitchell) was the informant for all of them.
I have attached a screenshot that includes the various ages given for Lilian at the time that these 5 children were born.
As well as that, when she married on the 18th January 1911, her age is recorded as 21. When she died on 23 June 1950, her age was recorded as 58.
Lilian always indicated that her place of birth was England, but I've noticed quite frequently in records that individuals who were children of those born in England often wrote that they were too, even though they were clearly born in New Zealand.
-
Connection to family of William Henry and Emma CLARK :
Link to WW1 service record - Albert CLARK (born Taieri, Otago - 7 September 1896)
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE24342560
[Incidental : ... you'll see that Albert gives his grandparents names as his parents' names in this record ? ]
At Image # 1 - several changes of address are noted on this first page.
One in particular - 132 Shetland Street, Kaikorai - stands out because the following resided there in 1938.
1938 - Dunedin West roll
CLARK - Charles* - 132 Shetland Street - butcher
also CLARK - Emma ** - Shetland Street - widow (no street number given.)
[* Charles CLARK I think this is really Smith Barraclough CLARK - same occupation and a.k.a. "Charlie" / Charles CLARKE ].
[** Emma CLARK - widow - Shetland Street : Would be inclined to think this is Emma, widow of William Henry CLARK ... being taken care of by her grandson, Smith B. (a.ka. "Charlie" ??]
Emma CLARK died in 1940 1942... funeral notice and burial record don't give her address at time.
[Are there funeral directors in Dunedin who still have records ? ]
~ Lu
Edited to correct date of death.
Hi Lucy2 - I was just going through the Electoral Rolls to add in the information you have so graciously provided, and I noticed that in the 1938 Roll, as well as the entry for Charles Clark at 132 Shetland Street, there is also an entry for Smith Barraclough Clark at 21 Beta Street (Occupation Butcher). So not sure if it was him taking care of Emma Clark at that time.
-
Hi Tikva ... yes my error. ;D
Have just temporarily deleted my explanation ... it was confusing me. ;D
Back to you when I've re-checked some records.
~ Lu
-
Yes ... I already had a note that 1938 Dunedin West electoral roll, was the first appearance under the name of Smith Barraclough CLARK - at Beta Street, occupation butcher. And given his birth year, I figured he should have been on NZ e/rolls before then (unless he was absent from NZ).
Wasn't until later, once I'd discovered his nickname was "Charlie" or "Charles", that I checked for the names of "Charles CLARK" in Dunedin - and the presence of an "Emma CLARK - widow" also at Shetland street, seemed to me to suggest, the two may be related.
Think I made mention somewhere too, that Charles CLARK was at the Shetland St. address with Emma between 1928 and 1938. So 1938 was an error on my part, and should really read > 1935.
Of course Charles CLARK and Smith Barraclough CLARK (one and the same person), are on that 1938 Dunedin West roll, at two separate addresses.
Have looked at the amendments at the end of those rolls - and no alteration to, nor a removal from the roll, has been made for Charles CLARK.
My guess is that Smith B. CLARK reverted to his birth name at that time (1938), and simply gave details of his name and new address to the authorities. Who know who was responsible for not removing his former (Charles CLARK) listing ??? ;D
I looked at the 1922 Dunedin rolls (only searchable online with a bit of effort), and found (as a bonus) ;D
"Emma CLARK - married" living at 132 Shetland Street. Remember we didn't previously have a street number for her. Listing says "married" ... but maybe she just hadn't got around to advising of her widowhood at that stage. She's a widow in later rolls.
And Albert CLARK, storeman, (her grandson) is with her in 1922 also.
Hope that clarifies things ?
~ Lu
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Hi Tikva
Re: the chart you posted at Reply # 99.
There's some real consistency there with the birth year ... and especially with the birthplace of Lilian.
Were it me, I'd be casting "the net" further afield, ( e.g. London), in a bid to find her family. ;)
* Do you have the death record "printout" for Lilian ?
Often with the passage of time, more details of a (say, once "secretive") person, become known to their family, friends, acquaintances etc. I think you spoke of Lilian remembering a sister she had ?
And, also there was the instance of the surname "FOLEY" on a daughter's marriage certificate.
Maybe there's "new info" on the death record ??
~ Lu
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Hi Tikva
Re: the chart you posted at Reply # 99.
There's some real consistency there with the birth year ... and especially with the birthplace of Lilian.
Were it me, I'd be casting "the net" further afield, ( e.g. London), in a bid to find her family. ;)
* Do you have the death record "printout" for Lilian ?
Often with the passage of time, more details of a (say, once "secretive") person, become known to their family, friends, acquaintances etc. I think you spoke of Lilian remembering a sister she had ?
And, also there was the instance of the surname "FOLEY" on a daughter's marriage certificate.
Maybe there's "new info" on the death record ??
~ Lu
Hi Lucy2,
It was only recently, through DNA testing, that we were able to ascertain a DNA link to William Clark in New Zealand, who appears (at this stage) to be Lilian's father, and Emma Clark possibly her mother. For 30 years I have been researching Lilian based upon the information she provided - the approximate birth year, the birth place, etc. And that search proved fruitless. I believe another family member has a copy of her Death printout, but once again, I'm not at home and it will be somewhere on my PC or in my papers. However, I do know that there was no helpful information contained in it.
Regarding Lilian speaking of a sister who died, when she was a teenager, and of heart problems, it is possible that Lucy Clark, daughter of William and Emma, who died of Rheumatic Fever and Valvular Disease of the Heart when she was 14 is in fact the sister that Lilian spoke of.
I have another query that has arisen as a result of this Clark family, but in the interests of keeping things clearer, I will post that in another reply.
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So, here's the other query.
Eliza Clark, one of the daughters of William Clark, also had another son, Eric Clark, who died in 1911, when he was 8 years old. His Death Printout confirms that Eliza was his mother. However, I have not been able to find a birth record for him at all, which I find unusual. If that record is nowhere to be found, is it possible that the same situation might have occurred for Lilian Clark? Are there births in New Zealand that records are not available for? In such situations, are there any techniques one can employ to find 'lost' or incorrectly entered birth records when you don't have a specific date of birth?
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Yes ... I already had a note that 1938 Dunedin West electoral roll, was the first appearance under the name of Smith Barraclough CLARK - at Beta Street, occupation butcher. And given his birth year, I figured he should have been on NZ e/rolls before then (unless he was absent from NZ).
Wasn't until later, once I'd discovered his nickname was "Charlie" or "Charles", that I checked for the names of "Charles CLARK" in Dunedin - and the presence of an "Emma CLARK - widow" also at Shetland street, seemed to me to suggest, the two may be related.
Think I made mention somewhere too, that Charles CLARK was at the Shetland St. address with Emma between 1928 and 1938. So 1938 was an error on my part, and should really read > 1935.
Of course Charles CLARK and Smith Barraclough CLARK (one and the same person), are on that 1938 Dunedin West roll, at two separate addresses.
Have looked at the amendments at the end of those rolls - and no alteration to, nor a removal from the roll, has been made for Charles CLARK.
My guess is that Smith B. CLARK reverted to his birth name at that time (1938), and simply gave details of his name and new address to the authorities. Who know who was responsible for not removing his former (Charles CLARK) listing ??? ;D
I looked at the 1922 Dunedin rolls (only searchable online with a bit of effort), and found (as a bonus) ;D
"Emma CLARK - married" living at 132 Shetland Street. Remember we didn't previously have a street number for her. Listing says "married" ... but maybe she just hadn't got around to advising of her widowhood at that stage. She's a widow in later rolls.
And Albert CLARK, storeman, (her grandson) is with her in 1922 also.
Hope that clarifies things ?
~ Lu
Yes, that does clarify things! Thank you so very very much for all of your hard work!
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So, here's the other query.
Eliza Clark, one of the daughters of William Clark, also had another son, Eric Clark, who died in 1911, when he was 8 years old. His Death Printout confirms that Eliza was his mother. However, I have not been able to find a birth record for him at all, which I find unusual.
Reply: Wasn't this child born out of wedlock ? Then it's probably not so unusual that there's no (obvious) birth registration for him. You have the name of his father from the court session (1903) where Eliza made application for maintenance costs.
* Have you maybe checked for a baptism record ?
* Have you ever found this child's name on school records ?
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If that record is nowhere to be found, is it possible that the same situation might have occurred for Lilian Clark?
Reply :
Yes, it's always possible.
* Have you also searched the microfiche records for New Zealand Births (at a library or other repository which has these ) ? Ideally there should be a record on the NZBDM online index / and the NZ Births version at ancestry.com - but it's important too to check the microfiche Birth Index as well.
* Have you ever found a "Lilian CLARK" in school records, who belongs to your family ??
[If not, then it would seem most unusual, that where there are both birth and school records for supposed siblings, one "child" has missed being recorded in each of these. ]
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Are there births in New Zealand that records are not available for?
Reply : Yes.
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In such situations, are there any techniques one can employ to find 'lost' or incorrectly entered birth records when you don't have a specific date of birth?
Reply : Check online, I'm sure there are plenty of helpful articles available on the subject .
~ Lu
I've entered replies to questions ^ within the body of your post :
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So, here's the other query.
Eliza Clark, one of the daughters of William Clark, also had another son, Eric Clark, who died in 1911, when he was 8 years old. His Death Printout confirms that Eliza was his mother. However, I have not been able to find a birth record for him at all, which I find unusual.
Reply: Wasn't this child born out of wedlock ? Then it's probably not so unusual that there's no (obvious) birth registration for him. You have the name of his father from the court session (1903) where Eliza made application for maintenance costs.
* Have you maybe checked for a baptism record ?
* Have you ever found this child's name on school records ?
---------------------------------------------
If that record is nowhere to be found, is it possible that the same situation might have occurred for Lilian Clark?
Reply :
Yes, it's always possible.
* Have you also searched the microfiche records for New Zealand Births (at a library or other repository which has these ) ? Ideally there should be a record on the NZBDM online index / and the NZ Births version at ancestry.com - but it's important too to check the microfiche Birth Index as well.
* Have you ever found a "Lilian CLARK" in school records, who belongs to your family ??
[If not, then it would seem most unusual, that where there are both birth and school records for supposed siblings, one "child" has missed being recorded in each of these. ]
-------------------------------------------------
Are there births in New Zealand that records are not available for?
Reply : Yes.
-----------------------------------
In such situations, are there any techniques one can employ to find 'lost' or incorrectly entered birth records when you don't have a specific date of birth?
Reply : Check online, I'm sure there are plenty of helpful articles available on the subject .
~ Lu
I've entered replies to questions ^ within the body of your post :
Thank you again!
Re Eric
1. Yes, Eric was born out of wedlock, but so was the son Eliza had in 1896 (Albert) and his birth was registered. Hence why I found it unusual that Eric's birth wasn't, or doesn't appear to be.
2. No, I have not checked for a baptism record, as not sure where I would go to do so for New Zealand baptisms.
3. I have not as yet searched for him on school records. Thank you for the reminder that I need to do so!
Re Lilian
1. I believe that I did check the microfiche at the Hocken Library here in Dunedin for Lilian some time ago, and did not find anything definitive. However, that was before I had this information from DNA, so another check will be in order.
2. I have not found any local school records for Lilian, but am in the process of trying to get the Canterbury records searched. Apparently Lilian received a wedding gift of some lovely furniture from someone who lived up that way, hence why I thought it might be worthwhile searching in that area as well.
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Lucy2, I received the Marriage Prinout for Nellie Clark and James Campbell Smith a short while ago, and can confirm that Nellie is a daughter of William Clark and Emma Keen. Like her death record however, she has used a different age, as she was actually 29 when she married, but on the printout her age is 27. Husband was 25, so maybe she lowered her age a little for him. So, back to the drawing board re finding Lilian! A descendant of one of Emma's daughters she had before marrying William Clark has taken a DNA test for me, so that we can either confirm or otherwise whether or not my Lilian is a daughter of William AND Emma's. It's possible that she was a daughter of William's and someone else, or even a granddaughter. A definite and strong DNA connection to William though.
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Lucy2
Another update. I went to the Hocken Library today in search of Birth records for both Eric and Lilian, and fortunately, I was able to find Eric's one on the microfiche. No luck with Lilian though, and have been in contact with BDM to see if they can look into why Eric's birth record isn't showing at their end.