RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Wiltshire => Topic started by: LizzieL on Monday 01 February 21 10:25 GMT (UK)

Title: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: LizzieL on Monday 01 February 21 10:25 GMT (UK)
I have found of a transcript of a marriage bond for a Hettey Eltham  dated 23 Sept 1789. She is a spinster of the parish of Hannington, her intended is James Norman, bachelor, occupation mason of Westbury on Trym. The bondsman is James Eltham, yeoman, of Hannington (Hetty's father). The marriage is due to take place in Hannington.
Can anyone find it. I have looked at Hannington registers and there is no marriage between 22 Sep 1789 and 19 May 1791, which seems a huge gap. These records are consecutive on the same page, so no pages missing.
 
I don't know whether it's connected but there is a baptism of a James Newman Eltam on 17 Mar 1789 at Hannington, base born son of Esther. I can't find a likely Esther in Hannington so wonder if the mother was Hetty but the vicar made an error or recorded what he thought was her 'proper' name, thinking Hetty was a nickname. I can't find this baptism in Hannington registers, there seems to be a gap again, so all I have is a transcript from FindMyPast.  Newman and Norman are close so I was wondering if the father of Hetty's child was her intended bridegroom



Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: Milliepede on Monday 01 February 21 11:50 GMT (UK)
You have probably seen this marriage in Hannington 13 Mar 1797

Hetty Eltham
William Astor

It has spouse residence out of Wiltshire which might help with her origins (if this is the same lady)
spinster so suspecting she never actually married in 1789 and you are right that the child born was hers and her intended groom.
Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: LizzieL on Monday 01 February 21 14:02 GMT (UK)
Thanks, William Astor / Aston was from Buscott, Berkshire.
I have Hetty as daughter of James Eltham and his wife Jane nee Hart bapt 1 Jan 1773 at St Giles Oxford. She was a witness to two of her sister's marriages Jane to James Treap in 1785 in Hannington and Lucy to Richard Savage in 1788 in London. Hetty's signature is the same as on her own marriage to William Astor. Both Jane and Lucy were baptised in  Standlake, Lucy 1768, Jane 1770. There was also a sister Mary bapt Oxford 1774. At some stage the family moved to Hannington because I have a James, Elizabeth & John bapt there in 1775, 1778 and 1782 respectively. Also baptism of William, Lucy's illegitimate son in 1786.
I have burials for baby William and Mary (1774) but nothing in Hannington for the parents John and Jane, I think some of the family moved on to Christian Malford, but not sorted that out properly yet.

I wonder how Hetty got to know someone from Westbury on Trym, she would only be 15 or so when they met. According to the bond he was a mason, perhaps was in Hannington for work. And what happened to James Newman (or Norman) Eltham?
Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: ribbo39 on Tuesday 02 February 21 09:16 GMT (UK)
Hi LizzieL

Not a lot to go on  but
I do have a copy of the Wilts MLB CD and there are licence  references for;

34382 MLB     
AUSTIN          WILLIAM              CARPENTER            BUSCOT, BERKS.   BAC     
ELTHAM,  HETTY,   SP,   HANNINGTON, WILTS.
                                                           
ELTHAM JAMES,   INNKEEPER,HANNINGTON                                                                     
 MAR 1   1797
     
also;

58625 MLB   
NORMAN     JAMES                  Mason                    WESTBURY UPON TRYM, GLOUCS.   BAC                                                               

ELTHAM,   HETTEY, SP   HANNINGTON. WILTS
                                                                         
ELTHAM  JAMES,YEO,HANNINGTON                                                                                              SEP 23   1789



I believe these two Hett(e)y Elthams are two different people as both are recorded as "sp"

Alan
Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: LizzieL on Tuesday 02 February 21 11:38 GMT (UK)
Thank you for the licence details. At first I thought there were two Hettys, but there doesn't seem to be a marriage following the licence for James Norman and Hetty. Also I can only one Hetty in the location. The one baptised in Oxford d/o James and Jane, who moved to Hannington with her family.

Children of James and John: Oxfordshire (2 Standlake, 2 Oxford) baptisms were Lucy, Jane, Hetty, Mary, then following on Hannington baptisms James, Elizabeth, John. Both Hetty and Lucy had illeg children in Hannington (Lucy's child died in infancy), Mary was buried in Hannington, Jane married in Hannington, Lucy married in Lambeth, Hetty was a witness at both marriages. James jnr married in Christian Malford to Mary Crew. There is a burial in Christian Malford in 1820 which would fit James snr's probable age. I have nothing further on John or Elizabeth or Hetty's illegitimate son James Newman Eltham bapt 13 Mar 1789.( I have only seen a transcript, so wonder whether the Newman might be Norman)
Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: LizzieL on Wednesday 21 April 21 15:08 BST (UK)

Children of James and Jane: Oxfordshire (2 Standlake, 2 Oxford) baptisms were Lucy, Jane, Hetty, Mary, then following on Hannington baptisms James, Elizabeth, John. Both Hetty and Lucy had illeg children in Hannington (Lucy's child died in infancy), Mary was buried in Hannington, Jane married in Hannington, Lucy married in Lambeth, Hetty was a witness at both marriages. James jnr married in Christian Malford to Mary Crew. There is a burial in Christian Malford in 1820 which would fit James snr's probable age. I have nothing further on John or Elizabeth or Hetty's illegitimate son James Newman Eltham bapt 13 Mar 1789.( I have only seen a transcript, so wonder whether the Newman might be Norman)

I think I have a problem with the assumption that James jnr married Mary Crew. Just found a transcript of a couple of lines from a coroner's report dated 29 June 1778. It says James Eltham jnr aged under 3 drowned in the Isis at Hannington Wick also his sister Mary aged under 5.
The marriage took place on 5 Aug 1804, but no transcription mentions whether James was a widower, but I'm now thinking it was James snr remarrying. I can't find a burial for Jane his first wife anywhere to check she died before 1804
Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: Capetown on Thursday 22 April 21 08:09 BST (UK)
Ancestry:

James NORMAN - baptised, Westbury on Trym, Holy Trinity
19 March 1769

parents: John & Hannah NORMAN
Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: LizzieL on Thursday 22 April 21 08:16 BST (UK)
Thank you, that looks a likely baptism for James Norman in the marriage which doesn't seem to have happened, He would be about 20 in 1789.
Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: Capetown on Thursday 22 April 21 08:30 BST (UK)
Had a look on Ancestry at the Hannington baptisms (Parish Register and Bishops Transcripts)  - and can't see James Newman Eltam 17 March 1789 at Hannington.

Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: LizzieL on Thursday 22 April 21 08:35 BST (UK)
I found it on FindMyPast. They quote Wiltshire Baptisms Index 1530-1917 as source
Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: Capetown on Thursday 22 April 21 09:21 BST (UK)
There  are a few pages cut out of the actual register - and Bishop Transcripts don't cover this date.

in 1798/1799 - Uk Land Tax Redemption

Jas ELTHAM - was renting off a John SMITH - 3 1s. 7d.


---

Assume you have the transcript of William ASTON of Buscot, Berkshire to Hetty Eltam (by Licence)  - Hetty and William sign their own names - and witnesses; William SOVEY? and Robert DAY
Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: LizzieL on Thursday 22 April 21 10:30 BST (UK)
Thank you for the land tax record, James would be Hetty's father, a yeoman on first marriage licence and an innkeeper on the second  to William Aston (1797) (thanks to Alan in an earlier post on this thread).

I wonder how much 3 1s 7d was worth then.

Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: ribbo39 on Friday 23 April 21 11:15 BST (UK)
Hi LizzieL,

I had another look today for the marriages of Hetty Eltham/Elton. The only one I have found is to;
William Aston, of Buscott, Berks to Hetty or Holly Eltham 19-3-1797 in Hannington (By Licence). If you would like a copy from the original register I can send to you.

In Buscott -  William Aston is bur. 10-8-1817 aged 43 yrs.

I found no record of Hetty Eltham/Elton in Hannington other that a bapt. of James Newman Eltan 13-3-1789 bbs/o Esther. (taken from the transcripts from WiltsFHS)

Whilst on Ancestry I came across a marriage reference to; Jas. Norman to Hatley Eltham 23-9-1789 in Hampshire (no parish listed). FHL Film No. 1278952

I do have some CDs from the Hants FHS but so far the above marriage place has eluded me.

I realise the above info you may already have seen but thought I would just recap.

Alan
Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: LizzieL on Friday 23 April 21 12:56 BST (UK)

Whilst on Ancestry I came across a marriage reference to; Jas. Norman to Hatley Eltham 23-9-1789 in Hampshire (no parish listed). FHL Film No. 1278952

I do have some CDs from the Hants FHS but so far the above marriage place has eluded me.

I realise the above info you may already have seen but thought I would just recap.

Alan

The date is the same as the bond for the first "marriage" which I don't believe ever took place. I have found a James Norman bapt in Westbury on Trym s/o John and Hannah.
I have only seen a transcription of that bond, but it seems the intended marriage place was Westbury on Trym (groom's place of residence) rather than Hetty's. They're about 45 miles apart. As to the Hampshire reference, there is also a Hannington in Hampshire. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen Family Search  get the wrong county for villages which have duplicates in one or more counties.

There is a probate for a Hester Aston in 1852 in Buscott and a likely Hester on 1841 census. I haven't found her in 1851 or a death yet. She may have died before 1851 and probate delayed a bit.
There are two Eltham girls b Christian Malford after James Eltham's marriage to Mary Crew (according to census records) but not able to find baptism records

Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: Capetown on Friday 23 April 21 13:59 BST (UK)
Ancestry

UK, Land Tax Redemption - 1798 - Buscot, Berkshire

Name of Proprietors
Wm. Aston *

Name of Proprietors
* himself and Wm  SANDELL

Sums Affeffed : 3 shillings.
Title: Re: Marriage of Hett(e)y Eltham
Post by: LizzieL on Thursday 01 July 21 14:48 BST (UK)
I have nothing further on John or Elizabeth or Hetty's illegitimate son James Newman Eltham bapt 13 Mar 1789.( I have only seen a transcript, so wonder whether the Newman might be Norman)

John was baptised at Hannington on 25 Oct 1782. He's a good fit for the John on my other thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=786799.msg6420846#msg6420846

who married Ann Love and father of the James I was originally seeking.
I discovered the second page of the marriage licence between John and Ann (9 Dec 1804) and it says he's 21. He was a coachman which makes him quite mobile. I had wondered whether the one who married Ann Love was my 3 x great grandfather's brother John Eltham who disappears after baptism but he was born abt 1766, so would be much too old.

I'm still trying to find a connection with the Eliza who married Thomas Bishop in Wantage
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=692046.0

Right age to be James's sister, but if they were John of Hannington's children, the family were from Standlake originally, so no real link to Wantage