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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Carlow => Topic started by: Loveancestry on Thursday 04 February 21 19:28 GMT (UK)
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Hi, henry Williams is my 4th ggf and i have struggled to find out more information about him for some time.
I have stated he is from Carlow, however I do not know this for sure but know that both of his daughters were born there. My 3rd ggm Sarah Williams and her sister Margaret were born in 1842 and 1844 from what census records say. They both moved to stoke on trent sometime before 1861. Sarah’s marriage in 1863 record states that her father is Henry Williams a labourer who had died by this time, and Margaret’s marriage record said he was a joiner. Both Sarah and Margaret were catholic and they both named one of their sons Henry.
What I would like to find out is who was Henry’s wife and when and how did he die? Did Margaret and Sarah have more siblings?
I have tried to access Irish records but haven’t got any information!
Thanks in advance :)
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They both moved to stoke on trent sometime before 1861.
Can you find them in the 1851 census anywhere? Who are they with in 1861 (can't find them yet)
Who did each of the girls marry please so we know their surnames.
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Hi, i have been unable to find them in the 1851 census. in 1861 Sarah was living in the home of a fellow Carlow lady Margaret nee summers who had married James rigby. James was to become Sarah’s brother in law as she went on to marry his brother Noah rigby in 1863. Margaret I can’t find in 1861 but she married Simon grocott in 1864. In 1871 the sisters are living next door to one another.
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Thank you I can find Sarah now.
Do you happen to know the witnesses names from the girls marriages? Sometimes they can be helpful and lead to other family members.
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At Sarah’s marriage it was a fanny James and Joseph Morton. At Margaret’s it was Enoch rigby and Harriet rowlands. Enoch I believe is Noah’s nephew although there are quite a few around the same age.
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Thank you, was hoping one would be a Williams that may have been a brother or sister.
Not finding anything else I'm afraid but hopefully someone better at Irish records will be able to dig out something for you.
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From looking at baptism records for Sarah and Margaret’s children, they were godparents to one another’s children, but there was also a thomas Williams who was god parents to Margaret’s child but I have never found evidence of him on census records. I suspect he is a brother given they both named their children Thomas (Sarah’s son was John Thomas) although they both died as babies
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Hi,
A quick look on Find My past gives a Henry Williams baptised 14th August 1844 to a Henry Williams and Cath. Butterfield.
Borris Parish in Co. Carlow.
That would perhaps tie in with the general time frame Sarah and Margaret were born.
Most entry's for Williams in Carlow seem to be concentrated in the general Borris/Rathanna area.Civil entry's for New Ross reg. district which would include parts of this area as would Bagenalstown Petty sessions.
Griffiths valuation has 29 Williams in Carlow,mainly in the general Carlow town area.
One Henry Williams in Rathanna
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Thankyou for this sounds interesting
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What were the names of female children of Sarah & Margaret which may help identify a likely name for their mother?
Annie
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See a Margaret Summers baptised same parish (Borris) 1st April 1825.
All just conjecture but maybe worth a look.
How old was Margaret Rigby nee Summers on census ?
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Hi Annie, margarets daughters were Catherine and Mary Ellen, and Sarah’s were Hannah (can discount this as this was paternal nans name) Mary agnes and ellen. So Catherine is a high possibility but then Mary/ellen is too!
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Margaret summers was born in 1834 according to census?
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From doing some digging on other ancestry trees and dna links, I have found a thomas Williams in Carlow born 1843. I have spoke to his descendant and it is believed he stayed in the area until he died. He married a Margaret kavanagh. They had children Catherine, Henry, John, Thomas and George. Some of these children moved to Chicago. So it is of interest that Sarah’s daughter Mary agnes, I found a passenger list of her moving to Chicago in the 1890s. The form said to be with her cousin Henry Williams. I am convinced this is thomas and Margaret’s son as it all fits!
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From doing some digging on other ancestry trees and dna links, I have found a thomas Williams in Carlow born 1843. I have spoke to his descendant and it is believed he stayed in the area until he died. He married a Margaret kavanagh. They had children Catherine, Henry, John, Thomas and George. Some of these children moved to Chicago. So it is of interest that Sarah’s daughter Mary agnes, I found a passenger list of her moving to Chicago in the 1890s. The form said to be with her cousin Henry Williams. I am convinced this is thomas and Margaret’s son as it all fits!
Looking at Irish civil records it looks likely that the above mentioned family ie Thomas Williams and Margaret Kavanagh,lived in Borris Parish as address for George and Thomas birth is Rosdillig, Borris.
No sign of their marriage although marriage of a Thomas Williams to a Catherine Kavanagh on 25th October 1858 in Borris with witnesses Moses Nolan and Sarah Williams.
Only possible death of a Thomas Williams I could find that might fit is below.Died 25th December 1911 aged 73 at Coshill,Borris.A labourer ,married and reported by his niece Catherine Murphy.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1912/05372/4498469.pdf
Possible marriage of the parents of Catherine Murphy mentioned above.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1882/10969/8009689a.pdf
Address for Kate is Knocksquire Borris.See a death for a Margaret Williams Knocksquire Borris in 1883 aged 53 and reported by her son George Williams.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1883/06352/4822369.pdf
None of that really answers your question re.Henry Williams though.
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Address for Kate is Knocksquire Borris.See a death for a Margaret Williams Knocksquire Borris in 1883 aged 53 and reported by her son George Williams.
Just adding a link-
Knocksquire townland is in the Civil Parish of Kiltennell.
https://www.townlands.ie/carlow/idrone-east/kiltennell/killedmond/knocksquire/
KG
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This is all very interesting Thankyou! I find it so hard to research Irish records don’t this is really helpful. I will take a look in more detail later :)
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This is all very interesting Thankyou! I find it so hard to research Irish records don’t this is really helpful. I will take a look in more detail later :)
For Irish records the civil site is pretty good.Carlow reg. district covers most of Co. Carlow but a few could be either Baltinglass District (north east Carlow) or New Ross District (south Carlow)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
It only starts in 1864 so for anything before that you are relying on parish records.
What I do is register for free account on findmypast.ie
Search gives you transcriptions for baptisms and marriages available on NLI.ie registers with link to actual Parish register.
Saves poring over pages of often unreadable entry's.
https://registers.nli.ie/
https://www.findmypast.ie/
Transcriptions are not always 100% but cuts down on a good bit of searching at times.
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It only starts in 1864 so for anything before that you are relying on parish records.
That's for the civil registration of births, Catholic marriages & deaths. From 1845 for the civil registration of Protestant & Registry office marriages..
KG
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It only starts in 1864 so for anything before that you are relying on parish records.
That's for the civil registration of births, Catholic marriages & deaths. From 1845 for the civil registration of Protestant & Registry office marriages..
Had forgotten about that to be honest.Had never had reason (so far ) to have to look at anything bar RC records for my tree as all ancestors back 200 plus years seem to be tenant farmers or agricultural labourers of RC persuasion.
.
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See a Henry Williams baptised 25th March 1862 to a Thomas Williams and Margaret Kavanagh in Borris.Address is given as Kiledmond.
Page above that has baptism of twins Henry and Benjiman Williams on 26th January 1862 to parents John and Mary Williams with sponsors Thomas Williams and Sarah Tuite and Peter ? and ? ?.No address given.
They seem to have been married on 9th November 1861 in Borris with address given as Kiledmond and her maiden name Neile (Neill ?).Witnesses Michael Treacy and Margaret Williams.
Did you find a DNA connection to the Williams from Carlow/Chicago ?
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Thankyou all for the information I have looked at all of the sites and they are very interesting!
The records you have found are really interesting, and another Henry crops up!!!! There must be lots of them!! This all raises so many questions.
Yes I have a small amount of dna 15cm with a ‘distant cousin’ who descends from Thomas williams, possibly Sarah’s brother. However another descendent of Sarah does not share Dna with us so that has me confused too!
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Yes I have a small amount of dna 15cm with a ‘distant cousin’ who descends from Thomas williams, possibly Sarah’s brother. However another descendent of Sarah does not share Dna with us so that has me confused too!
It may depend on the generation gap between those 2 matches.
How do you know about the descendant of Sarah if neither of you share a match?
Does the 'descendant of Sarah' have a paper trail which may suggest a lack of the same genes passed down or an illegitimacy down the line or...
Annie
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Hi Annie I don’t think I’ve made myself clear. So another of Sarah’s descendants is someone who shows as my 3rd cousin. She is actually my 2nd cousin 1x removed. We both come from Sarah’s daughter Hannah’s line, and we have confirmed this through trees. When looking in shared matches for me and the American line, my confirmed line isn’t showing. There is only one shared unknown match with no tree! I have no idea why?
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Have you looked on church records
http://www.irishgenealogy.ie
her death is listed on this site.
presented at death a James Ross