RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Neil_A on Thursday 04 February 21 21:39 GMT (UK)
-
Hello
I'm trying to understand the potential relationships of online listed inhabitants which I know to be a city relevant to my heritage. I know there is something in patronymics here but I cant get my head round whether its relevant to the people listed?
There is a surname Nesanel, Nesanelis, and a Nesaneliv.
I can see the -ich being the equivalent of "son" as in Abramonovich but not the -el, -is, and -iv suffixes. It could be transcription errors or indeed a pronunciation/spelling issue given how similar letters sound in Russian/Ukrainian/Hebrew or Yiddish. But any pointers would be much appreciated.
many thanks
Neil
-
Hello Neil,
I've only just noticed this old post of yours.
Nesanel (נתנאל), or Netanel in modern Hebrew pronunciation, is a Jewish given name; Nathaniel is the form that you are probably more familiar with.
So the second two would appear to have the endings -is and -iv. The second ending apparently indicates progeny. The first ending may well have been corrupted in the romanization of the original Ukranian/Russian.
Which list and which city are you referring to?
Justin
-
Hi Justin
Many thanks for responding! The -is and iv connection make sense from the research I've been doing so useful to have it validated.
The city I'm looking at is Berdychiv - though through a bit of DNA matching/deduction I do believe there is also an Odessa connection.
List wise - I can't remember what I was specifically looking at when I posted this request, but I do know I've been using on and off the index of Jewish families from the 1897 census, some of the other 19th century listings on Wiki-source (translated with Google and searching for the Russian text for Nesanel). The Lipes database also has given me the range of Nesanel versions which I've been working through.
Best wishes
neil
-
Hi Neil,
I saw your posts on the JG forum from earlier in the year, and was just wondering how the Nesanelis family is connected to the Brooks (formerly Brodsky) or Levene families.
More importantly, I wanted to ask whether you have obtained the marriage authorisation from the United Synagogue for the Brooks-Levene marriage in 1897?
The MA is a valuable document as it will state the full Hebrew/Yiddish names and birthplaces (hopefully the actual town/city) of both bride and groom and whether the groom had any brothers. You can search for and order it here https://www.theus.org.uk/category/find-marriage-record (https://www.theus.org.uk/category/find-marriage-record)
Justin
-
Hi Justin
Many thanks for the suggestion and link.
I hadn't seen this before so it may prove truly invaluable to adding more context to the story and/or hopefully (!) confirming what I believe to be true. (I'm about 98% certain!!)
As for the Nesanelis vs Brooks vs Brodsky and Levene families - I've been using a combination of DNA matching and detective work, searching newspaper articles (JC and other) and your traditional civil registration records, electoral registers etc.
As the Nesanelis family were originally from the Russian Empire it also meant they were not UK citizens, so they and their future spouses had to apply for UK status. Despite their spouses being born and bred in the UK they 'lost' their nationality on marriage! An archaic and unfair rule but it did mean an extra set of records to investigate..... London Gazette announcements and Applications for Naturalisations (held at the National Archives at Kew). The military were also reluctant to recruit young Russian immigrants at the start of WW1 - cue another set of records to check out.
When I did start out on this 'forgotten' branch of my tree I didn't expect to get very far. But as you say it goes to show that hard graft, a few hypothesis to test, a lockdown or two to allow some dedicated time, and of course some luck, has enabled me to really advance my research. And of course some very helpful folk like yourself to help give some useful pointers around additional sources of information.
best wishes and thanks again
Neil
-
Hi Neil,
I really hope, for your sake, that the MA does reveal Simon's exact place of birth. I have attached the MA for the marriage of my great-grandfather's brother in 1880, so you can get idea of the information an MA may provide. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that the Brooks-Levene MA will be as complete.
So, was the Paulina Nesanelis (aka Pauline Brooks) who was re-admitted to British Nationality in 1937 indisputably Simon's widow?
Have you come across anything to link Simon to the Russian Solomon Brooks, a "traveller in jewellery", who died aged 27 in 1902 and was buried in Cardiff? His Hebrew name was Ralman Eliyahu son of Ben-Tsion Shlomeh, which I would have never guessed.
Justin
-
Hi Justin
Thanks again for the pointer to this record source - I ordered over the weekend and it arrived first thing this morning. Sadly It doesn't at first glance add anything to my understanding (though its good to have the record). There is something additional in Hebrew that doesn't have an English equivalent translation, so will look to post that in the other forum (who knows that might be enough to get me to 100%!)
Paulina aka Pauline is the widow - I'm certain of that given her application, newspapers and other sources. I've asked to see her file when Kew reopens in a few weeks (after getting an FOI request approved).
I will need to do some digging on Solomon Brooks - his business, birth location, final resting place and age does point to a connection. Simon had 3 brothers that I'm aware of 1 joining him in the UK, the other 2 staying in Russia. Who's to say there wasn't another brother who also made the journey west?
best wishes
Neil
-
Neil,
You can post it here. I'll be able to read the Hebrew.
Justin
-
Many thanks Justin - here you go
best wishes
Neil
-
The groom was Mr. Shimon Tsvi son of Mr. ... (blank, no name!!)
"tsvi" means deer in Hebrew. The Yiddish calque is Hirsh; anglicised to Harry
Will attend Wedding: Mosheh Leyb will be at the wedding (one brother with a double given name)
The bride was the maiden Pesa daughter of the late Ze'ev.
There is a photo of Pauline's father's gravestone on JewishGen. His full Hebrew name was Ze'ev son of Aryeh. "ze'ev" means wolf in Hebrew.
How disappointing and surprising that the MA provided so little information. I can't believe that Simon's father's name wasn't even noted. Somebody had to prove that he was the son of an irrefutably Jewish couple.
Do you have the civil marriage certificate?
Justin
-
Thanks for the translation Justin - though as you say a missed opportunity by my ancestors to provide an audit trail!
In theory Simon's parents were at the wedding in Cardiff (a local newspaper references the groom's parents being present). It also meant that the parents weren't present for the 1897 census as the wedding weekend clashed with the big data collection in Russia.
Would you say 'Tsvi'/'deer' would be a term of endearment or (want of a better word) nickname?
I ask as a name - first name or surname this is a first in my research so far.
The one brother attending is also interesting. Looking at my other information source I have Simon as having a brother known in the Vitals as Moisey (could that be the Mosheh here i.e. are they both interpretations of the anglicised name Moses?). Though I have Moisey listed as Moisey-Nesanel Nesanelis, not Leyb. I do believe Simon had an uncle called Itsko-Leyb - but maybe I cant read too much into that!
Oh I wish Simon had insisted on proper documentation - the civil certificate references him as a commercial agent so would have thought the right sign offs would have been essential! :-\
Neil
-
Hi Neil,
Jewish given names is a complicated subject. I would recommend that you read the articles here https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/menu.htm (https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/GivenNames/menu.htm), particularly section 5, to gain better insight.
Tsvi was not a nickname. Simon's sacred name (shem kodesh) was the double name Shimon-Tsvi, both of which are Hebrew as opposed to Yiddish. In Russian records, the name would appear as something like Shimen-Girsh/Gersh; there is no letter "h" in Russian.
Variant forms of Jewish given names is a complete nightmare. I recommend this article http://www.bfcollection.net/fast/articles/understand_names.pdf (http://www.bfcollection.net/fast/articles/understand_names.pdf). The Hebrew name Mosheh had numerous Yiddish variants; Moisey can definitely be regarded as one.
Itsko-Leyb is a good example of complex name. Istko is a diminutive of the Yiddish name Itsik, which comes from the Hebrew name Yitschak (biblical Isaac). Leyb is the Yiddish word for "lion" and was a very common alias for men with the Hebrew name Yehuda, whom the patriarch Jacob described as a young lion (Genesis 49:9).
What was the name of Simon's father on the marriage cert and who were the witnesses?
-
Great links - thank you Justin. Helps with the family history and also a further insight into the Jewish faith. I'll continue to study these and revert back if I may? (hoping that the databases come back online in the meantime)
On the civil marriage certificate of Pauline and Simon.....the groom's father is listed as Phillip Brooks, contractor. Witnesses are Abraham Cohen and a J Samuel. My assumption on both that they were business associates of either the groom or bride's family. I believe that Phillips real name was Fayvel, so possibly anglicised for his trip to Wales.
-
PS
Is there a chance that Moshe Leib are two rather than one brother i.e. is there any indication that this is or is either singular or plural?
Asking as I believe Simon had a brother known as 'Leon' who was UK based (could Leon be an anglicised version of Leib?) and Moisey (who was Russia based), and given Simon's Russian parents were present in Wales, may have accompanied his parents for the marriage?
Neil
-
Neil,
The only database that has ever been available over the years is the main GNDB (https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/givennames/search.htm (https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/givennames/search.htm)).
Philip would have been the commonest anglicisation of Fayvel.
What makes you think that Simon's parents were just visiting for his wedding? Because you can't find Philip/Fayvel in post-1897 records?
Mosheh-Leyb was one man. The verb yihye יהיה (will be) is the 3rd person masculine singular; the 3rd person plural is yihyu יהיו. It was not uncommon for only one part of a double name, often the second part, to be used as the "everyday" name.
So this brother could have been known as Leon (from the Latin "leo" = lion), which is most definitely a secular alias for Leyb/Leib.
I know that the old synagogue where Simon and Pauline married is no longer in use, but there is presumably a successor synagogue in the town. I suggest that you contact the new synagogue to make enquiries about the 1897 marriage. Many years ago, I contacted the London synagogue where my ggf's brother had married in 1880. To my absolute amazement, not to mention excitement, they sent me a copy of the original ketuba (Jewish marriage contract).
Justin
-
Thanks Justin - I've messaged the current Synagogue to see if they are the local archives still have the local Ketuba records.
The 1897 wedding appeared to be quite an event from what i can tell - the last one in the old synagogue. The event made the local press and the newspaper references the groom's father and mother being in attendance. No names nor any reference to any brothers!! :'(
Not comprehensive proof but the parents appear not be present in their hometown at the time of the 1897 census. I have records that point to them being at the same address in 1875 and 1912 - so no reason they wouldn't have been picked up in 1897 (apart from avoiding the authorities which though possible not likely given the listing of the neighbours).
Simon's obit made reference to his brother Leon. But Leon was known as Leon Saul, rather than say a name that referenced Moses. The other twist is that I can see a man known as Moisey Nesanel who had the patronymic Fayvel. Maybe a coincidence or distant relative but the date of birth, relatively unusual surname for the Ukraine, and location of Moisey point him to being the son of the same Fayvel. Sorry probably a stupid question but would it be uncommon to share a name with brothers? So one brother being Leib-Saul and the other Moisey-Leib?
-
Hi Neil,
Leon Saul Brooks/Brooksky/Nesanelis ties things together nicely, but raises in my mind the question of whether Nesanelis was the original birth surname or one assumed by the brothers in the 1930s.
You have, presumably, found him and his wife, Marjorie, at separate addresses in the 1939 register with the later annotations in the red that their surname was later changed to Nesanelis?
Have you obtained Leon and Marjory's 1902 civil marriage certificate (644/7 112 Blythswood) via ScotlandsPeople? Scottish civil marriage certs provide the names of both parents of the bride and groom as well as the mothers' maiden names.
I couldn't tell you whether it was common for brothers to share names. My own Jewish ancestors came from Germany, where it was very unusual for boys and girls to be given double-names. Put the question to the JG forum.
I would be reasonably confident that we're looking at two different brothers.
Where have you managed to find the Berdychiv records? Are they online?
Cheers, Justin
-
Hi Justin
I do think it was Nesanelis > Brooks, rather than Brooks > Nesanelis.
Nesanelis being an unusual name even for the Ukraine. Its origins are more likely to be Lithuania according to Jewish name expert Alexander Baider (who someone kindly asked on my behalf on the JG Forum). Both Leon Saul and Simon Harry have a connection to the name Nesanelis and were brothers who found themselves in the UK in the late 19th century.
I've managed to track both brothers down from almost cradle to their final resting places - picking up on a newspaper trail, alien registers, and the more 'normal' route of my research i.e. census, electoral registers and BMD (including the Glasgow wedding). Leon's father is listed as Fayvel!
I've reached out on the JG forum as you suggested to see what others may think, and I'm hoping that the naturalisation records of Simon's wife (when I see them) may give some extra clues.
As for sources of information happy to share here - as I've found it incredibly useful on Rootschat to discover sources through other people's stories. So hoping this also proves useful....
For Ukrainian records there is a chap - Alex Krakovsky, from Kyiv I believe, who keeps taking the government to court re. access to historic records. He wins, copies and then publishes online what he finds. This is the translated index of his records:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&u=https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title%3DSpecial:Search%26limit%3D500%26offset%3D0%26profile%3Ddefault%26search%3DAlexkrakovsky%26advancedSearch-current%3D%7B%7D%26ns0%3D1%26ns6%3D1%26ns12%3D1%26ns14%3D1%26ns100%3D1%26ns106%3D1
Access is free but if you are like me and don't understand Russian you need to train your eyes for some key letters of the Russian alphabet! stevemorse.org is an excellent resource.
Another incredibly useful source of information for the Ukraine has been the database maintained by Nadia Lipes:
https://lipesdatabase.com/about/
It's not cheap. But I've splashed out a few translated records, and the index which includes locations and the patronymics are also a useful pointer.
Some of the records I've been looking at go back to early 19th century Ukraine!
The Russian military records databases are more miss than hit - but I've also retrieved a few key documents:
https://gwar.mil.ru/heroes/?fbclid=IwAR13Hd4gt3McOLAJxu3ClvfCDDRhhXwTzsybxQTMlwsgOI5AzYmwDq97IKM
Finally for me an unexpected source of information - the Hoover Institute in San Francisco.
It holds copies of the Okhrana Files that were produced or held by the Tsar's secret police in Paris.
Lots of photographs, copies of letters. Sadly there was no photo of my ancestors but they provided a copy of an intercepted letter that was addressed to my great * 3 grandfather.
I'm also looking at DNA matching as a means of filling in the gaps on the family line, and trying to track down descendants in the UK, though that is proving more difficult than I imagined. Though both Simon and Leon were from big families their own children didn't all go on themselves to have offspring.
best wishes
Neil
-
Hi Neil,
I hope you're enjoying the bank holiday, although I gather the weather is pretty awful. It's only in the low 30s here in Dubai :)
You've done incredibly well to track down all those Ukrainian records. But then I suppose it's similar in researching German-Jewish ancestry, in that JG only has a tiny portion of all the records that are available.
Alexander Beider is indeed the recognised expert on Jewish names, but I'm still somewhat surprised that he can suggest a specific location for a patronymic surname. He's basically suggesting that the given name Nesanel was more common in Lithuania than other parts of the Russian Empire. I don't see why it would be.
I've seen your post to JG; it will be interesting to see the responses. As I clarified earlier, the one brother named on the MA was Moshe-Leib (a mixed lineage Hebrew-Yiddish double name). Traditional Jewish naming practice would mean that he had most probably been given the names of two different deceased ancestors.
I should also point out in passing that brother(s) are named on the marriage authorisation for the potential implementation of the practice of yibum, whereby if a man dies without children it is the obligation of his eldest unmarried brother to marry the widow. The practice had actually been banned in Ashkenazi communities for many hundreds of years, although it persisted amongst the Sephardi.
I cannot think of a valid reason, why Moshe-Leib would anglicise his name to Leon Shaul. Something like Morris Lewis/Louis or Morris Leon would not have been unusual. I can speculate that Leon's original Jewish name was Leib-Shoel/Shoyel, a mixed lineage Yiddish-Hebrew double name. As long as the Leib after whom he had been named was not the same deceased ancestor commemorated in Moshe-Leib, then the name combinations were in keeping with naming traditions.
It's a bit frustrating that Leon married out, so there are no readily available Hebrew records.
Moisey-Nesanel, a mixed lineage Hebrew-Hebrew double name, would appear to be another man altogether.
The other question that poses itself is, was it common to name only when brother on a MA, when the groom had several?
Regards,
Justin
-
Hi there i have just came across this search for such an unusual name NESANELIS, mostly because its a family name.
I habe seen that Neil you have been researching this name and origins.
It would be really interesting to understand what distant relatives i might have in the UK, and what maybe my distant Nesanelis relatives have spread across the world.
My knowledge is that NESANELIS is Ukrainian from Kharkiv, but also i know the name has Lithuanian origins where the name could have been NESANELAS, as my NESANELIS relatives came from Lithuania.
It was be super interesting if some distant relatives moved to the UK in 1900.
Feel free to respond :)