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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: colincam on Friday 05 February 21 14:44 GMT (UK)
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I am struggling to find the birth and the parents of Mary Irene Williams who married William Hill Underwood in West Derby, Liverpool in 1888. In the marriage record it states that she was 23 years old and that her father was Isaac Williams who was an engineer and nothing else. In the 1891 census it indicates that she was born in Penarth, Wales. Mary Irene died in Marylebone, London in 1938 but in her death record it does not give the names of her parents only the informant who was her son James. Can anybody help me?
colincam
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FreeREG has Penarth records but cant see any Bapts there with a Father Isaac.
But a Isaac Williams was buried there 21 Jan 1895 age 74.
Trish :)
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Possible 1881 Census?
7 Lucy Row
Aberdare, Glamorgan
Isaac Williams 55 Head Mar Engineer (Art)* born Merthyr, Glamorgan
Mary Williams 16 Daug born Aberdare******
William Williams 13 Son born Aberdare
Note *
Says Out not Art on image whiche means hes not working at time of Census
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Hi Trish
Both of these are excellent discoveries. Unfortunately no sign of a mother in the 1881 Census. Perhaps we could find her in the 1871 Census
Could the "Art" not stand for "articled"
Regards
colincam
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Hi Trish
I have now found the 1861 and 1871 Censuses for Isaac and his family. His wife's name is Ann. She is in the 1861 Census but not in the 1871 Census so must have died not long after Mary Irene was born in abt 1865
We're making progress
colincam
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wife had died before 1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRMS-N2B
Art seems to be one of the enumerator's notes. It's in a different handwriting. Not articled.
1861 shows wife as Ann
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWMS-8PL
red post, but I'll send for others in case they can help.
The census entries are in the village of Cefn Pennar, possibly what is meant to be on the later entry for Mary.
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possible marriage 28 May 1855 parish church of Merthyr Tydfil
Isaac Williams 27 bach engineman Abercanaid father David Williams miner
Ann Harris 23 spinster servant Abercanaid father William Harris carpenter
witnesses John Edwards & Thomas Phillips, all signed apart from Ann.
Possible birth reg Mary Williams june qtr 1865 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 420 mmn Harris
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Possible baptism for Isaac
Isaac Williams
Birth 2 Mar 1828
Baptism 19 Mar 1828 Merthyr, Glamorganshire, Wales
Denomination: Presbyterian
Father: David Williams Mother: Sarah
And maybe on 1841c
Piece: 1415 Folio: 36 Page Number: 1
David Williams 60 miner
Sarah Williams 35
Jacob Williams 22
Catherine Williams 18
ISAAC Williams 13 engineer
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baptisms for children of Isaac & Ann Williams in Aberdare
4 April 1862
David age 6
Sarah Ann 4
Ellen 2
Isaac engineer address Cwmbach
3 Aug 1862 Catherine 9 months
18 June 1869 William Thomas Isaac engine driver
Nothing for Mary as yet.
Possible death notice for Isaac?
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3519021/3519023/7/
Died 25 Sept 1886 in Ystradyfodwg but home address 7 Lucy Row Cwmbach, admin to son David Isaac Williams. Death reg age 58 sept qtr 1886 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 282
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No relationships given on 1841 census if we presume Sarah is his daughter and named after her mother there is this possible marriage
David Williams
Marriage 17 Nov 1806 Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, Wales
Spouse: Sarah Richard
married after banns, both single both made their mark
(a mistake I think with surname for David written as Richard)
In presence of William Jones & William Williams
Edit to add still looking for a baptism for Sarah & Jacob
found Catharine’s and her marriage
Catharine Williams Birth 1 Apr 1823
Baptism Date: 27 Apr 1823 Merthyr, Glamorganshire, Wales
Denomination: Presbyterian
Father: David Williams Mother: Sarah
England & Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers, 1567-1936
Marriage 9 Nov 1846 Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, Wales
Catherine Williams f/a father David Williams, miner
William Griffiths, miner father George, miner
Catherine made her mark
Witness W Rowland & Jacob Williams
Marriage 10 Mar 1847 Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, Wales
Jacob Williams f/a, miner David Williams, miner
Gwenllian Howells f/a father Thomas, coal agent
all signed
Witnesses W Rowland & John Howells
Glamorganshire, Wales, Anglican Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1570-1994
edit to add source baptism & marriages
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possible for Ann in 1841 census in Nevern, the neighbouring parish to Newport, William is a carpenter.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M77Q-88F
map for address
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01q9x/
baptism for Margaret
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCBK-H7N
By 1851 Ann senior has died and William has remarried,
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCBK-S17
30 April 1845 parish church of Whitechurch
William Harris full widower carpenter father Thomas Harris farmer
Martha Gibbon full spinster father William Gibbon carpenter
witnesses John Morris & Owen Thomas, all sign except Martha
census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGC1-VRG
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Hi All
I am grateful for all the help yesterday. It's been a lot to take in but I'm getting there.
I spotted a transcription error in the 1841 Census entry for David and Sarah Williams and family. Sarah is shown as aged 35 in the transcription but when you look at the actual document, she is much more likely to be 55
I have been unable to find the record of the marriage of David Williams and Sarah Richard on 17 Nov 1806. Can you provide me with the reference and source please?
Possibly other enquiries later
Regards
colincam
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I have been unable to find the record of the marriage of David Williams and Sarah Richard on 17 Nov 1806.
Can you provide me with the reference and source please?
The record is on Anc*y Glamorganshire, Wales, Anglican Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1570-1994 - have added snippet - 2nd one shows the wrong surname for David
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I spotted a transcription error in the 1841 Census entry for David and Sarah Williams and family.
Sarah is shown as aged 35 in the transcription but when you look at the actual document,
she is much more likely to be 55
I agree with you it does look more like age 55
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There are also these marriage entries to consider
David Williams
Marriage 12 Jun 1815 Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, Wales
Spouse: Sarah Williams
David Williams
Marriage 30 Sep 1822 Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, Wales
Spouse: Sarah Buckley
Glamorganshire, Wales, Anglican Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1570-1994
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Excellent work everyone :)
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Hi
I found a possible baptism for Ann Harris on 29 Oct 1833 at Haverfordwest, St Thomas, Pembrokeshire, Wales. Her parents are a William & Mary Harries and William is a carpenter. What do you think about that? This is obviously different from your William & Anne Harris in Nevern
Regards
colincam
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it would be a long way to take an infant from Newport, Pembs for baptism, about 20 miles. Babies were usually baptised within 3 weeks of birth.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/PEM/Newport
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/PEM/Haverfordwest
Although she gives Newport on that census, she possibly was born in Nevern. It's quite common to give the place of birth as somewhere nearby that is better known when living at a distance from place of birth and Newport was a working port at the time, my mariner ggrandfather sailed out of there.
;)
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Hi
Regarding the two new marriages for David Williams and Sarah:-
The 1822 one with Sarah Buckley is not a possibility because Jacob was born in 1819
The 1815 one with Sarah Williams fits better with the children we are aware of than the 1806 one with Sarah Richard. But David Williams and Sarah might have had children that had left home by the time of the 1841 Census.
Regards
colincam
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it would be a long way to take an infant from Newport, Pembs for baptism, about 20 miles. Babies were usually baptised within 3 weeks of birth.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/PEM/Newport
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/PEM/Haverfordwest
Although she gives Newport on that census, she possibly was born in Nevern. It's quite common to give the place of birth as somewhere nearby that is better known when living at a distance from place of birth and Newport was a working port at the time, my mariner ggrandfather sailed out of there.
;)
Ok I agree with you regarding the Haverfordwest baptism
Regards
colincam
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Hi
Regarding the two new marriages for David Williams and Sarah:-
The 1822 one with Sarah Buckley is not a possibility because Jacob was born in 1819
The 1815 one with Sarah Williams fits better with the children we are aware of than the 1806 one with Sarah Richard. But David Williams and Sarah might have had children that had left home by the time of the 1841 Census.
Regards
colincam
Hi again
Sarah would have been 29 in 1815 and 20 in 1806 based on the 1841 Census if my arithmetic is correct so I think the 1806 marriage is more likely in these days
I also think Isaac b 1828 would probably have been her last child. She would have been 42 by then
What do you think of my logic?
Regards
colincam
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children baptised to David, miner & Sarah of Rhydycar
Presbyterian for Isaac & Catherine already given by Ladyhawk
also Mary baptised 10 July 1825
parish church baptisms
Jacob 3 Oct 1819
Elizabeth 16 Feb 1817
Sarah 4 Sep 1814
Map showing Rhydycar & Lower Wern, address in 1841
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qa6/
Another possible for the marriage is 14 May 1811 in Bryngwyn, Monmouthshire by licence of David Williams, widower, of Merthyr Tydfil, and Sarah Roger, spinster of Bryngwyn. There's also one closer to Merthyr Tydfil 12 Aug 1811 in Bedwellty of David Williams & Sarah Davies.
:-\
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Hi Osprey
Thanks for adding the baptisms of Elizabeth and Sarah to the list of David Wiiliam's children
We now have several possibilities for Sarah viz
Richard - 1806 marriage not close enough to Sarah's birth in 1814
Buckley & Williams - both marriages after Sarah's birth
Roger - David would have to have been married & widowed before. To whom?
Davies - I don't know how close Bedwellty is to Merthyr Tydfil
Plenty food for thought there
Regards
colincam
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about 6 miles or so
https://www.genuki.org.uk/maps/lmap?LL=51.746270,-3.372545&COUNTRY=5&PLACE=Merthyr%20Tydfil
David is shown as not born in county on 1841 census and is probably dead before 1851 census to check place of birth.
With not uncommon names and earlier registers with little detail, it is approaching guesswork.
:-\
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Hi Osprey
The ideal marriage between David Williams and Sarah would be one which took place just before
baby Sarah's birth in Sep 1814. Sadly I can't find one in that category anywhere in Glamorganshire in Ancestry.
The only ones I can find in Wales are the following
Sarah Lewis 1 Dec 1812, Carmarthenshire
Sarah Williams 5 Oct 1812 Denbighshire
Sarah Roger 14 May 1811 Monmouthshire
Sarah Rees 16 Mar 1813 Breconshire
But since our Sarah was born in Glamorganshire and baby Sarah was born in Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire, I am not too impressed with any of the above.
I don't indulge in guesswork
Regards
colincam
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Denbighshire would be too far away. Some Breconshire parishes border Merthyr Tydfil, but that marriage is in Llanwrthwl, the other side of the county and the groom is of Cwmteuddwr in Radnorshire
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/Llanwrthwl
Carmarthenshire one shows both as of Llangadog and David is a labourer. Possible baptisms to the couple in neighbouring parish Myddfai.
Monmouthshire marriage to Sarah Roger in Bryngwyn, not particularly close to Merthyr Tydfil.
The marriage could be in a parish that isn't online.
:-\
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I don't think we can make any further progress on Sarah's surname. I'm not convinced by any of the possibilities
However I am puzzled that I can't find a baptismal record for the subject of this thread, Mary Irene Williams when I have such records from Aberdare for all of her known siblings. I can't believe she was the only one not baptised.
Also I would like to be more confident that her mother was Ann Harris.
Regards
colincam
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there's the possible birth reg I gave you in reply 6 to confirm parents & address.
There are no Mary Irene Williams registrations or baptisms as early as 1860s. There's a Mary I registered Cardiff but GRO index shows middle name to be Ida.
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possible marriage 28 May 1855 parish church of Merthyr Tydfil
Isaac Williams 27 bach engineman Abercanaid father David Williams miner
Ann Harris 23 spinster servant Abercanaid father William Harris carpenter
witnesses John Edwards & Thomas Phillips, all signed apart from Ann.
Possible birth reg Mary Williams june qtr 1865 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 420 mmn Harris
Hi Osprey
I did notice the above birth reg but when I looked it up on FreeBMD, I could find no reference to mmn Harris. Perhaps you have access to more information than me?
I checked out the Mary I Williams birth with the Cardiff Registry Office and they confirmed it was not the right person
Regards
colincam
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I did notice the above birth reg but when I looked it up on FreeBMD, I could find no reference to mmn Harris.
Perhaps you have access to more information than me?
mother's maiden name can be found using the GRO indexes - you have to register but it's free to search https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
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Hi Ladyhawk
The GRO Indexes are not a source I have used much in the past but thanks for reminding me.
colincam
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it also may show middle names when there's only an initial on FreeBmd.
;)
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Hi
I have been trying to find a death record for Ann Harris but so far without success.
She is not with her husband Isaac in Cefnpennar, Aberdare in the 1871 Census and her last child, William Thomas was born in 1869 so that should narrow it down considerably.
I must admit to be struggling with Welsh place names. Can you help me with this?
Regards
colincam
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possible
Ann Williams 37 june qtr 1869 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 262
Haven't spotted a parish burial as yet.
William Thomas Williams was baptised 18 June 1869 in Aberdare son of Isaac & Ann of Cwmbach, birth was registered june qtr 1868 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 434 mmn Harris
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Hi Osprey
Isaac is buried in Aberdare Cemetery so his wife Ann is probably buried with him
Regards
colincam
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baptisms for children of Isaac & Ann Williams in Aberdare
4 April 1862
David age 6
Sarah Ann 4
Ellen 2
Isaac engineer address Cwmbach
3 Aug 1862 Catherine 9 months
18 June 1869 William Thomas Isaac engine driver
Nothing for Mary as yet.
Possible death notice for Isaac?
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3519021/3519023/7/
Died 25 Sept 1886 in Ystradyfodwg but home address 7 Lucy Row Cwmbach, admin to son David Isaac Williams. Death reg age 58 sept qtr 1886 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 282
Hi
Can you tell me where the above death information for Isaac Williams was obtained in particular the address of 7 Lucy Row, Cwmbach?. The above newspaper notice and the Death Reg do not refer to this address.
Regards
colincam
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it was from the National Probate Calendar.
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Died 25 Sept 1886 in Ystradyfodwg but home address 7 Lucy Row Cwmbach, admin to son David Isaac Williams. Death reg age 58 sept qtr 1886 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 282
Can you tell me where the above death information for Isaac Williams was obtained in particular the address of 7 Lucy Row, Cwmbach?.
The address is on Isaac Williams, widow, Engineman 1886 probate record on Anc*y England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995
Edit - posting same time Osprey