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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: jim1 on Friday 05 February 21 17:44 GMT (UK)

Title: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Friday 05 February 21 17:44 GMT (UK)
Doing this for a friend.
John James married Hannah Edwards 1855 Llangorse Brecon.
Look who she puts as her father.
Witness Walter Edwards (based on identical signatures) married 1856 his father is John Edwards
so no help there.
She says she was born in Talgarth Mon.
Looked at the children post marriage & she gives the mmn of Edwards so no mistake.
What's going on ?
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: mazi on Friday 05 February 21 18:05 GMT (UK)
First thoughts are that she is in 1851 a boarder in a Williams household.

Born 1837 Talgarth as Hannah Edwards. Maybe she was informally adopted and put the man who brought her up as her father

That a load of nonsense, she puts William Watkins as her father☹️☹️
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Friday 05 February 21 18:17 GMT (UK)
I saw the 1851 census but that just prompts another question as to
why she is in lodgings in Talgarth when she was born there.
Why not with parents unless both dead.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: heywood on Friday 05 February 21 18:46 GMT (UK)
In 1851 2490/186/8

There is
Walter Edwards 21 yrs birthplace transcribed as Palgroth but looks like Talgarth.
He is with brother John Edwards and family.

1841
There is a 12 yr old Walter Edwards with John Edwards 60 yrs and Ann Edwards 50 yrs in Talgarth.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Friday 05 February 21 19:32 GMT (UK)
Yes saw that but no Hannah Edwards.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: sandiep on Friday 05 February 21 20:00 GMT (UK)
the 1851 census says she is a house servant so perhaps that will be why she is living there
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: heywood on Friday 05 February 21 20:52 GMT (UK)
Yes saw that but no Hannah Edwards.

This might be way off but I will post just for information.
There are Presbyterian baptisms at Llandovally, Breconshire - Parents John and Ann of Talgarth parish

Ann Edwards 11th June 1819
William Edwards 7th October 1825
Walter Edwards 28th November 1828

I wonder if Ann could be Hannahís mother?
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: heywood on Friday 05 February 21 21:04 GMT (UK)
There is also a baptism 11th May 1821 for John, the son of John but it says also the grandson of Mary Edwards rather than motherís name.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: majm on Friday 05 February 21 21:45 GMT (UK)
Hannah may have  never known who was recorded as her dad by the clergy in the parish register when she married.   Afterall, she made her X mark. 

JM
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Friday 05 February 21 23:12 GMT (UK)
Quote
the 1851 census says she is a house servant so perhaps that will be why she is living there
Quite possible but with such a common name I need to place her with her parents.

Quote
I wonder if Ann could be Hannahís mother?
Certainly looks like Walter's mother.

Quote
Hannah may have  never known who was recorded as her dad by the clergy in the parish register when she married
She would have given this name at the time, it's difficult to see someone mishearing Edwards as
Watkins.
1 possibility is that his name is Watkin Edwards rather than the other way round.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: heywood on Friday 05 February 21 23:16 GMT (UK)
I meant the daughter Ann b 1819 as a possibility for Hannahís mother.
Perhaps illegitimate birth and Mr Watkins was the father.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Friday 05 February 21 23:23 GMT (UK)
I thought of that scenario but it's unusual on a marriage cert.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: ALAMO2008 on Saturday 06 February 21 11:52 GMT (UK)
Hi Jim1
Saw your Post on the Home page late last night and looked at it out of Curiosity to see who you were helping now and on what.
Was totally gobsmacked  to see you were asking for advice on a Mystery in an area that was part of my working life for 40 years.
Thought to myself must try and repay Jim1 tomorrow for all the help and advice you have given me over the years.

I moved from Liverpool in 1977 to get married in Brecon lived just a few miles from Talgarth, passing through it twice a day to and from work for 40 years. Walked, Cycled and drove down all the surrounding lanes there over the years, at weekends passing through Talgarth on route shopping to Brecon, Hereford or Abergavenny.
Both my Wife and I knew all the Farms and personnel in that area in both our employments.
The Baptism Heywood mentions at Llandovally , we lived for 7 years 1981 to 1988 a few hundred yards from Llandefalle Church out in the wilds there.
Small World !

I am of the opinion like Mazi that William Watkins was her known Father though he never married her Mother.

Researching Soldiers over the years I have come across several cases, where a baby was born out of wedlock and therefore Registered under the unmarried Mother's Birthname and no Father recorded or Mother's Maiden Name entered on the GRO Birth Index or Birth Certificate.

Hannah Edwards probably lived with her Mother and Grandparents till she returned to Service.

What evidence do you have that Hannah and Brother Walter were born in Talgarth.

Is it just the "Capel" entry on her Marriage Certificate???

In the past cases I had, sometimes the Father married the Baby's mother a few years after the Birth.
The Child was never Legally adopted but was "known as" on future Census under his name.
But upon Marriage because on their Honesty and Religious upbringing,
would Truthfully declare their Legally Registered Birthname,
 hence the difference on the Marriage Certificate.

Her older Brother Walter Edwards appears to have left the Talgarth area gone through Crickhowell, Llangattock and over The Beacons to Brynmawr to live there and work in the Mine there.

When we had relatives come to stay with us from Merseyside we would take them to "The Big Pit" Mine Museum Brynmawr and take them down the Mine that Walter probably worked in.

Small World !
 

Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 06 February 21 12:29 GMT (UK)
I'm not sure Walter Edwards is her brother just that he was a witness
at Hannah's marriage. They list different fathers.
Capel is all she puts as her place of residence & Talgarth is where she says
she was born on the census.
Yes it is a small world but big enough for Hannah to get lost in.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: ALAMO2008 on Saturday 06 February 21 13:10 GMT (UK)
Thought Capel was probably from Marriage Certificate
There is no area Capel in the Talgarth area.
If she was declaring Birth in Capel Hamlet she is referring to Capel as us locals called it
Meaning Capel y Ffyn up in the wilds of Llanthony Valley on the Welsh side of Offa's Dyke on the narrow C class Road
Hay on Wye to Pandy on the A465 Hereford to Abergavenny Road the route Miner Walter would have taken to migrate to Brynmawr .
Capel is now about 1 hr away and 20 miles from Talgarth via Car now via Hay on Wye where we lived 1988 to 2016
Would never use shorter AA planner route of 13 miles unless I was on Horseback which I have been many a time at Tregoyd and would have been her only means of Transport then.

BBC2 Gardener Monty Don has his Farm at The Vision Farm at Capel
"Not alot of people know that !"

If Hannah was born and lived at Capel she would not have had her Birth Registered in Brecknock but Rather
Hereford Herefordshire or more likely Abergavenny Monmouthshire.

You also need to look on 1841 1851 Census in those areas.

Her Father not having work for her on the Farm in the wilds of Capel in her Teens

Would probably have sent her into Service 1849  ish in the Talgarth area that had some Rich Families and Big Houses in that area
 the Vaughans and the Powells
It would have been uncommon for the Master to get the Servant pregnant
She would leave the household and go into local lodgings.
Then her Mother would meet someone prepared to take them both on as his own though not legally.

Which 1851 Census District 1,2,3 or 4 in Talgarth is she on ? And what address or Head?
Don't understand the RGO refs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capel-y-ffin
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 06 February 21 13:50 GMT (UK)
ED=2.
Head of house is farmer Lewis Williams.
Address is unpronounceable.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: heywood on Saturday 06 February 21 14:07 GMT (UK)
It looks like Blaenffinant, Forest, Talgarth
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: osprey on Saturday 06 February 21 14:21 GMT (UK)
map of Blaen ffinnant


http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qa0/
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: ALAMO2008 on Saturday 06 February 21 14:27 GMT (UK)
ED=2.
Head of house is farmer Lewis Williams.
Address is unpronounceable.
[/quote

It's Pen- yr- wrlodd  pronounced = Pen Ee wer loth.

Ooops thats the one above .


Osprey found it near Blaenffinant Forest. Pronounced = Bline Fin Ant

https://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=4082


Alot on that Census declare their Births as Brecon Forest
Which is up on the Common in the Wilds above Llandefalle not far from
Talgarth.

https://breconforestfarmhouse.org.uk/contact-us
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: ALAMO2008 on Saturday 06 February 21 15:04 GMT (UK)
What is known of Hannah after her Marriage December Quarter 1855 .

Did she have James/ Edwards Children ?

Found a Death of a William Watkins aged 56 Brecknock June Quarter 1862 Vol 11b page 81
Might be her Dad ?
Where did he live ?
And who was Informant ?
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 06 February 21 15:24 GMT (UK)
Quote
Blaen ffinnant
Looks like it doesn't it.
They lived in Llangorse after marriage which isn't far away.

Quote
Did she have James/ Edwards Children ?
11.
Quote
Found a Death of a William Watkins aged 56 Brecknock June Quarter 1862 Vol 11b page 81
Might be her Dad ?
Where did he live ?
And who was Informant ?
I don't know anything about William Watkins, I'll take a look at this one.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: ALAMO2008 on Saturday 06 February 21 15:35 GMT (UK)
Found 6 Daughters and 1 Son in the Name of James and Mother's Maiden Name is Edwards
Registered in Brecknock District Vol 11b from September Quarter 1856 with Angelina James page 103
to Emily James Brecknock District September Quarter 1868 page 97

Have the other 5 GRO Indexes if you want them
for :-
Elizabeth 1858
William 1860
Ruth 1860
Margaret 1862
Anne 1865
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 06 February 21 15:57 GMT (UK)
I have all 11 children thanks.
It's Hannah Edwards I'm to nail down.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: mazi on Saturday 06 February 21 15:58 GMT (UK)
I did notice a William Watkins birth in langorse, and a marriage in 1841 for him. The right age to be Hannah’s father, her mum may have been widowed sometime after Walters birth

Langorse is a small village, it’s possible everyone knew who Hannah’s real father was.

Pure speculation, I know

Mike
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Saturday 06 February 21 16:46 GMT (UK)
Speculation is all I have.
It may have to stay that way.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: BenRalph on Sunday 07 February 21 08:02 GMT (UK)
I thought of that scenario but it's unusual on a marriage cert.
My x3 great grandma was Hannah Parkinson (or Hunter, depending what she decided to be called on any particular day) but on her marriage cert she lists her dad as William Whitehead.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 07 February 21 08:35 GMT (UK)
ED=2.
Head of house is farmer Lewis Williams.
Address is unpronounceable.

Walter's brother John (occ miller) appears to have married an Eleanor Williams in Talgarth on 18 Feb 1846. Her father is Lewis Williams occ farmer. A Lewis Williams was a witness (Signed X) and a John Williams
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 07 February 21 08:52 GMT (UK)
Given the difference in Lewis Williams and his wife Margaret's ages, I assumed he was a widower, but I have found a marriage in Talgarth on 27 Nov 1847 for Lewis Williams bac full age occ farmer father John Williams occ farmer to Margaret Davies spinster father John Davies occ labourer. Residence of both was Forest. Either a mistake on the marriage record and he was really a widower, or he is not the same Lewis Williams who was Eleanor's father. Not found Lewis or Eleanor in 1841 yet.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 07 February 21 09:15 GMT (UK)
Looks like the Williams family in 1841 Blanyffinant, Hamlet of Forest, Parish of Talgarth
John   Williams   73   Farmer
Mary   Williams   65   
Lewis Williams   36
Ann Williams 23   
Eleanor Williams 21
Thomas Harris   18 Ag Lab

Lewis's year of birth is rather different from 1851 and looks like enumerator hasn't rounded ???
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 07 February 21 11:08 GMT (UK)
Quote
on her marriage cert she lists her dad as William Whitehead
Did you ever find out why.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 07 February 21 11:36 GMT (UK)
I did notice a William Watkins birth in langorse, and a marriage in 1841 for him. The right age to be Hannahís father, her mum may have been widowed sometime after Walters birth

Langorse is a small village, itís possible everyone knew who Hannahís real father was.

Pure speculation, I know

Mike

Another William Watkins with Isaac family in 1841 in Hamlet of Forest
Phillip Isaac 71 farmer
Jane Isaac 60
Howell Isaac 26
William Watkins 29 ag lab
Jennet Price 20 FS

There is a marriage in Talgarth on 20 Sep 1840 for a William Watkins bachelor, butcher full age s/o George Watkins to Jennet Isaac sp full age d/o Phillip.

If this is same William as with the Isaacs where is Jennet? and he'd changed from butcher to ag lab.

In 1851 there is a William Watkins grandson age 10 with the now widowed Jane Isaac and her unmarried son Howell.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: trish18 on Sunday 07 February 21 12:30 GMT (UK)
Did Hannah marry for a second time? I can see a death in May 1861 for John James and a marriage for Hannah James, widow, to James Griffiths in 1863. If she did marry again I wonder if she was consistent with her fatherís name on the second marriage registration? I also notice on one of the later census returns she gives her place of birth as Pengenffordd, Talgarth, which may help to narrow it down.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 07 February 21 13:37 GMT (UK)
The problem with William Watkins is there's so many of them.

Quote
Did Hannah marry for a second time
Now there's a thought.
I've only got John James up to 1861.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: trish18 on Sunday 07 February 21 13:46 GMT (UK)
I worked forward to see if William Watkins appeared with her in later records. It appears that she did marry James Griffiths in 1863. Nothing in the parish records for the marriage but here is the civil marriage ref; June qtr 1863 vol 11b 192.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 07 February 21 13:47 GMT (UK)
In 1851 2490/186/8

There is
Walter Edwards 21 yrs birthplace transcribed as Palgroth but looks like Talgarth.
He is with brother John Edwards and family.

1841
There is a 12 yr old Walter Edwards with John Edwards 60 yrs and Ann Edwards 50 yrs in Talgarth.

Baptism at Llandovally Presbyterian on 11 June 1819, Ann Edwards d/o John and Ann, residence Bwlch-y-warn, Forest, Talgarth

Could these be the John and Ann who are parents of Walter.? If so Ann would be his older sister.
Maybe Hannah is the daughter of Ann and so is niece to Walter.

 
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 07 February 21 13:51 GMT (UK)
Maybe Ann now Jones, with another brother William in 1851 with Leah Morgans who also appears in 1841
Piece: 2491, Folio: 37, Page Number:   5
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 07 February 21 13:55 GMT (UK)

Quote
Did Hannah marry for a second time
Now there's a thought.
I've only got John James up to 1861.

Didn't you say Hannah had 11 children, how did she fit them in between 1855 and John James' death, if he died in 1861 and she remarried in 1863?

Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: osprey on Sunday 07 February 21 13:55 GMT (UK)
1841 census has 3 names at Pengenffordd
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M77F-1V4

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M77F-1VW

also Upper Pengenffordd
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M77F-1J1

and Genffordd
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M77F-1JL

map

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qa5/
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: trish18 on Sunday 07 February 21 13:57 GMT (UK)
Lizzie, not all the children were by John James,she added to the brood with James Griffiths.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 07 February 21 14:05 GMT (UK)
Lizzie, not all the children were by John James,she added to the brood with James Griffiths.

I see. I got the impression from reply # 20 that 11 was the number of James / Edwards children
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 07 February 21 14:09 GMT (UK)
The 11 children came from the GRO index for Brecknock with mmn Edwards.
I need to look at that again.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 07 February 21 14:11 GMT (UK)
possible in 1871
Piece:   5582
Folio:   46
Page Number:   8
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 07 February 21 14:47 GMT (UK)
Quote
possible in 1871
Piece:   5582
Folio:   46
Page Number:   8
For who ?
It looks like there's another James/Edwards family in Brecknock.
Some of these children look like theirs.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: LizzieL on Sunday 07 February 21 14:49 GMT (UK)
Quote
possible in 1871
Piece:   5582
Folio:   46
Page Number:   8
For who ?

James Griffiths and Hannah and family, sorry missed the vital bit out ;D
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: trish18 on Sunday 07 February 21 15:00 GMT (UK)
The address on the 1871 census LIzzie provided has the address of Pentwyn, same as the address on John James will in 1861 in which his widow Hannah James is named.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 07 February 21 15:11 GMT (UK)
A re-evaluation is needed based on the information
kindly given.
John James & Hannah Edwards had 3 children:
1856 Angelina, 1858 Elizabeth & 1860 Ruth.
John James died in 1861 (age & place are right)
Hannah remarries to James Griffiths.
In 1871 Ruth is given the Griffiths surname.
I now need (as has been suggested) the Griffiths/James
marriage cert. & see who she says her father is this time.
If it's William Watkins I'll kill myself.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: trish18 on Sunday 07 February 21 15:38 GMT (UK)
I hope for your sake she doesnít mention William Watkins on the second marriage certificate then ;D

Please will you let us know what the certificate reveals?
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Sunday 07 February 21 16:03 GMT (UK)
Need a lie down in a dark room first.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Monday 08 February 21 12:20 GMT (UK)
Cert. ordered I'll let you know the outcome.
Title: Re: For those who like a mystery
Post by: jim1 on Tuesday 16 February 21 12:55 GMT (UK)
Cert arrived today & she puts her father as....William Watkins.
Wife's hiding all the knives.
Time to wrap this up I think unless anyone has any ideas.