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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: Althea7 on Monday 08 February 21 14:09 GMT (UK)
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1851 census gives place of birth for both my ancestors Robert and Grace Smith (born Nowell) as Langfield, Yorkshire, a township in Heptonstall chapelry, Halifax parish, W. R. Yorkshire; near the river Calder, the Rochdale canal, 1 mile South of Todmorden.
Google maps can't find Langfield.
Robert Smith was born about 1777 in Langfield.
I am puzzling over him a lot at the moment. It looks as though he married his wife Grace Nowell in Burnley, and his son William's baptism in Heptonstall says that the parents are of Hag Gate, Brierfield, which is just west of Burnley. Their first child was baptised in Burnley, then most of their children were baptised in Heptonstall, then they settled in Todmorden, actually Knowlwood, Walsden, where their youngest child was born.
I think both Robert and Grace Smith died in December 1858, together by the looks of things, in Walsden. There is a burial for Robert Smith in Walsden in January 1859.
My main question is where is Langfield? It would tie together the apparent discrepancies of locations given for Robert Smith. Also it looks as though maybe when Halifax is given as a birth place, in those days Halifax covered a bigger area than now, as did Heptonstall? It seems a long way between Halifax which some records give as the birth place for Grace Nowell, and Burnley, where they were married and according to their son William's baptism where they lived (Hag Gate, Brierfield).
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LANGFIELD is a 'township' on the border of Lancashire, in the chapelry of Cross Stone and parish of Halifax, one mile south-east from Todmorden, 3 miles south-west from Hebden Bridge, and 10 west-south-west from Halifax
Historically, Langfield was in the ecclesiastical parish of Halifax in the Morley
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LANGFIELD is a 'township' on the border of Lancashire, in the chapelry of Cross Stone and parish of Halifax, one mile south-east from Todmorden, 3 miles south-west from Hebden Bridge, and 10 west-south-west from Halifax
Thanks for this information. The picture is getting clearer of where these ancestors lived, and why Grace Nowell is shown on some records to have been born in Halifax, which seemed confusing as it is a long way away, whilst the 1851 census shows both Robert Smith and Grace Nowell as born in Langfield, Yorkshire.
Cross Stone is a place that keeps coming up for these ancestors too.
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1841 census, Robert Smith age 65 labourer, wife Grace age 55, daughters Jane 20 cotton spinner, Grace 15 cotton spinner, Mary 9, and Peggy Tattersall 60. Abode: Knowlwood, Walsden.
1851 census,Relationship: Head. With wife Grace and Mary Ann Ogden, 18, granddaughter born Walsden, labourer in cotton mill. Robert Labourer all work. Abode: 128 Knowlwood, Walsden. Both Robert and Grace born Langfield, Yorkshire.
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Census is secondary information, so who gave the information the person, head of house, next door neighbour or an assumption by the enumerator, each census could be different........ I have one ancestor whose age ranged by 30 yrs, claimed to be born in one county, then the next census claimed another county and another claimed to be born in the county she lived in at the time.... so census info you take it as a pinch of salt...then find other records like baptism to prove/disprove.
Also 'historically' Langfield was in the ecclesiastical parish of Halifax, so either written are correct
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https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Place:Langfield%2C_West_Riding_of_Yorkshire%2C_England
The above link will take You there.
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https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14&lat=53.70236&lon=-2.06868&layers=1&b=1
The above ca 1900 map has Langfield; you can zoom out to see Todmorden to N & Burnley to NW Heptonstall to NE.
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Census is secondary information, so who gave the information the person, head of house, next door neighbour or an assumption by the enumerator, each census could be different........ I have one ancestor whose age ranged by 30 yrs, claimed to be born in one county, then the next census claimed another county and another claimed to be born in the county she lived in at the time.... so census info you take it as a pinch of salt...then find other records like baptism to prove/disprove.
Also 'historically' Langfield was in the ecclesiastical parish of Halifax, so either written are correct
Thanks, this is very helpful as I have often noticed discrepancies of age between censuses and between censuses and other records, including Grace's age which is confusing. I did recently notice that one census' information was given by the teenage grandson, who might not know how old his grandparents were and may have been asked to estimate.
And yes, seeing Halifax given as a birth place seems out of place at first, until I realise that Langfield was in the historical ecclesiastical parish of Halifax.
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https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Place:Langfield%2C_West_Riding_of_Yorkshire%2C_England
The above link will take You there.
Is Langfield another name for Mankinholes?
Interesting map, thanks.
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https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14&lat=53.70236&lon=-2.06868&layers=1&b=1
The above ca 1900 map has Langfield; you can zoom out to see Todmorden to N & Burnley to NW Heptonstall to NE.
That 1900 map is wonderful, thanks. I can see where Langfield is, very close to Walsden, which is actually slightly separate from Todmorden. I was told that the Lancashire/Yorkshire border used to run right through Todmorden, and Walsden was in Lancashire.
Briercliffe looks to be the general area to the east and slightly north of Burnley, with Haggate maybe a village within that general area.
And Knowlwood looks to be closer to Todmorden than Walsden.
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I was told that the Lancashire/Yorkshire border used to run right through Todmorden,
I understand the boundary runs through the town hall.
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https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Place:Langfield%2C_West_Riding_of_Yorkshire%2C_England
The above link will take You there.
Is Langfield another name for Mankinholes?
Interesting map, thanks.
No - Mankinholes and Langfield are 2 separate areas of Todmorden
Also I think in general Knowlwood is part of Walsden. My husbands family came from Langfield
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Burials at St Peter's Walsden taken from the sextons list
693 Grace Smith - Walsden 26 Oct 1858 78 William & Mary Newall Walsden
Robert Smith - - - - - - - -
William Smith Engine Tenter Todmorden 29 Sep 1860 53 Robt & Grace Smith Walsden
Mary Smith - Todmorden 6 May 1863 50 John & Jane Wood Wadsworth
James Smith Overlooker Todmorden 5 May 1881 71 Robt & Grace Smith Walsden
Full R. Crossley Sexton
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Burials at St Peter's Walsden taken from the sextons list
693 Grace Smith - Walsden 26 Oct 1858 78 William & Mary Newall Walsden
Robert Smith - - - - - - - -
William Smith Engine Tenter Todmorden 29 Sep 1860 53 Robt & Grace Smith Walsden
Mary Smith - Todmorden 6 May 1863 50 John & Jane Wood Wadsworth
James Smith Overlooker Todmorden 5 May 1881 71 Robt & Grace Smith Walsden
Full R. Crossley Sexton
Thanks. This information seems to confirm assumptions I have made, for instance in the first line does that mean that Grace Smith died age 78 and is the daughter of William and Mary Newall?
And does it mean that Mary Smith died age 50 and is the daughter of John and Jane Wood of Wadsworth? (I assume she could be the wife of William Smith).
And does it mean that James Smith died age 71 and is the son of Robert and Grace Smith?
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It does. That sexton’s list is brilliant if you are lucky enough to find an ancestor on it. It always lists, where known, the parents of the person buried there, even the wives.
There could be slight variations in the translations eg Newall could easily be Nowell.
Mary would have been the wife of William. The husband and wife were usually translated on consecutive lines
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Malcolm Bull’s Calderdale Companion is also a good source of information. In it is states that Robert died 18th January 1859 and that he had 4 children, William, Olive, James and Sally.
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Malcolm Bull’s Calderdale Companion is also a good source of information. In it is states that Robert died 18th January 1859 and that he had 4 children, William, Olive, James and Sally.
That confirms information I have which I was by now almost sure of but I was still going over it wondering.
Olive born 1806 is the eldest of the children of Robert and Grace Smith, she was born in Haggate in Briercliffe and baptised in Burnley, and she married Charles Ogden b 1806 in Burnley and had one child, that I can find, Mary Ann Ogden born 1833 Walsden, who is with her grandparents age 18 on the 1851 census. Then William 1807-1860, James 1808-1881 and Sally, my ancestor, 1815-1901 were baptised in Heptonstall whilst the baptism records of William and James say the parents abode was Haggate in Briercliffe.
Then their daughter Jane was baptised in Heptonstall in 1821, Grace in Heptonstall in 1826 and their youngest daughter Mary was baptised in Todmorden/Walsden in 1832.
Robert Smith was buried in January 1859, but I think he died in December 1858, along with his wife Grace. The GRO gives his death as December 1858, with nobody else named Robert Smith two years either side of this.
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Robert Smith was buried in January 1859, but I think he died in December 1858, along with his wife Grace. The GRO gives his death as December 1858, with nobody else named Robert Smith two years either side of this.
A GRO reference is to the last month of the quarter in which the registration was made which is not necessarily the of death. He probably died late Dec, the death was registered before the 31st Dec then buried at the beginning of Jan.
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Robert Smith was buried in January 1859, but I think he died in December 1858, along with his wife Grace. The GRO gives his death as December 1858, with nobody else named Robert Smith two years either side of this.
A GRO reference is to the last month of the quarter in which the registration was made which is not necessarily the of death. He probably died late Dec, the death was registered before the 31st Dec then buried at the beginning of Jan.
Yes it would be the December quarter, but I assumed that because he was buried in January he would have died in December rather than earlier. They would have buried him as soon as they could.
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Of course; I have searched the newspapers online but couldn't find reference to Grace or Robert's deaths. I was just being picky [sorry :-[ ] that the GRO didn't 'give the death' as December, merely that it was registered in the Dec quarter; as you'll know the only way to find an exact date of death is via the death certificate [though it is occasionally noted on the burial record].
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Of course; I have searched the newspapers online but couldn't find reference to Grace or Robert's deaths. I was just being picky [sorry :-[] that the GRO didn't 'give the death' as December, merely that it was registered in the Dec quarter; as you'll know the only way to find an exact date of death is via the death certificate [though it is occasionally noted on the burial record].
I was probably being picky, it is just that I noticed that both Robert and Grace Smith died in the December quarter 1858, and Robert's burial was in January 1859. Often on trees people mix up death dates with burials, and birth dates with baptisms, and they are usually close together especially deaths and burials, and often the baptism is all you have anyway. I try to gather a lot of detail as it helps me be sure I have the right people.
I have puzzled over Robert and Grace Smith for a long time, and finally I think I have reasonably accurate information about them.
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It does. That sexton’s list is brilliant if you are lucky enough to find an ancestor on it. It always lists, where known, the parents of the person buried there, even the wives.
There could be slight variations in the translations eg Newall could easily be Nowell.
Mary would have been the wife of William. The husband and wife were usually translated on consecutive lines
Yes I am finding the name given as sometimes Newall and sometimes Nowell.
Thanks for that sexton's list especially Grace's parents as William and Mary Nowell. This is what I had down, but I didn't have a reliable source. William Nowell is still hazy, and I have Mary's death as 1802, and various possible marriages for him, including one to somebody called Mally, which could be a Mary. But the sexton's list information is something definite to refer to for Grace's parents, and also that they lived in Heptonstall.
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I think Mally was a forename in its own right though maybe derived from Mary; I have noticed it on parish registers in the area [I have several family baptisms at Heptonstall].
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Mankinholes was and is further on the side of the valley from the Langfield (or Longfield )area. In Todmorden three valleys meet, and Langfield is a roughly triangular uplandish area.
Although Todmorden is in West Yorkshire, it is also listed in Lancs Parish Clerks, which can be handy.
I've heard the name "Mally" used a great deal in that area, both sides of the border., sometimes interchanged with "Molly" also for "Mary", but as well as that also used as a shortened form of "Malinda" or "Melinda" - meaning something about honey or sweetness.
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There is a marriage of a William Nowell to a Mary Beasley of Heptonstall recorded in the St. John’s Halifax register in 1784 though that is a bit late in Grace was born c1780
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There is a marriage of a William Nowell to a Mary Beasley of Heptonstall recorded in the St. John’s Halifax register in 1784 though that is a bit late in Grace was born c1780
I have Grace as born in 1788, but there are conflicting records and I am not sure exactly when she was born.
I just looked on familysearch.org and the only baptism I can find, using the search 1777-1788, is Grace Nowell Christening 29 March 1785 Heptonstall, father: William Nowell. From England Births and Christenings 1538-1975.
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I got Robert Smith's death certificate. He died 13th December 1858 Knowl Wood, Walsden, age 82. Outdoor labourer. Cause of death old age, no medical attendant. Informant William Smith present at the death, abode Picks Wood, Todmorden. Registered on 13th December 1858 Todmorden.
I wish it had stated the relationship of the Informant to the deceased, but I assume it was Robert's son William. William's abode on the 1851 census was just shown as Gauxholme. I looked up Picks Wood on the map linked to in this thread, but couldn't find it.
The 1851 census gives Robert as Labourer, all work, so it does seem to be the same person.
Poor old guy, he is labouring outdoors at age 82, has no medical attendant to give a cause of death, and it takes over a month to bury him.
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Robert was buried on 18th December 1858 at St Peter’s age 82 of Knowlwood (ancestry has transcribed his age as 85 but the image says 82). Not in January as you thought.
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Robert was buried on 18th December 1858 at St Peter’s age 82 of Knowlwood (ancestry has transcribed his age as 85 but the image says 82). Not in January as you thought.
Thanks, that will teach me not to copy information from trees without verifying it.
Over a month seemed a long time to not bury somebody.
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Yes - so many trees have unverified information. Often even obvious illogical statements.
I thought it strange waiting a month for burial in 1858. No fridges then though I suppose the Yorkshire winter could have been rather cold!
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I got the death certificate for Grace Smith. Died 26th October 1858, Knowl Wood, Walsden. Age 80. Wife of Robert Smith, Outdoor Labourer. Apoplexy certified. The mark of Jane Sutcliffe, present at the death Knowl Wood.
Jane Sutcliffe is Grace's married daughter Jane, born 1821.
So if that age 80 at death is correct, I might have the wrong birth date, baptism and parents for Grace (born Nowell).
At least I know that Grace was Robert's wife, and who their children and grandchildren were, but not sure going further back who Grace's parents were, or exactly when or where she was born. Some DNA matches have people with surname Nowell in their tree, who originated from Liverpool before settling in Walsden.
Though thanks to that sexton's list, I know that Grace's parents were called William and Mary Newall (or Nowell), and were buried in Walsden.
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It is quite difficult to verify Grace’s actual age.
If the death was registered by her daughter she possibly only guessed her age as 80
The sextons list could have had her age (78j given by Robert who again might not have been able to remember accurately
1851 census says age 65 (bit of a leap 7 years later to 80!)
1841 census says age 55 ie age 55 to 59 allowing for rounding down
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Langfield is Longfield now if you look at a modern map (tho I guess the border might have been different back then). Of course "lang" means "long".
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Langfield is Longfield now if you look at a modern map (tho I guess the border might have been different back then). Of course "lang" means "long".
Thanks. I will look up Longfield on a map now.