RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: drmjgould on Monday 08 February 21 20:19 GMT (UK)
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Hello, I have just found out the burial details of this direct relative of mine. She was buried in Abney Park Cemetery, Stoke Newington, Middlesex, UK, on 20 Oct 1868. She lived at 57 Margaret Street, Haggerstone, Middlesex, UK. She was born on 8 Jul 1840 in Attleborough, Norfolk, UK, maiden name Sivell. She married George Hawes [1838-1915] on 17 Sep 1861 in Tibenham, Norfolk, UK. Her son William Sivell Hawes was born in 57 Mgt St on 16 May 1868, who was buried near his mother on 1 Apr 1869. I have searched for over 2y for her death info on many of the main genealogy & death/burial websites, with no result !! I WOULD BE VERY, VERY GRATEFUL FOR ANY HELP WITH THIS. Thanks in anticipation, Michael
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If you want her exact death date & place of death you will have to buy a copy of her death cert.
William’s birth & death were registered as William Swell Hawes. No death reg for Margaret
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Daughter Georgiana b 1862 Depwade mmn Sivell but shown as George - son in 1871
Son Edgar Francis 1865 Depwade
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Hello Carole, Nice to see your cat picture again. You helped me a lot with the 1st time I asked for help on RootsChat 3-4y ago, to do with Margaret's death. It has taken me until now to make any progress at all !!!! But now I have this burial date & details, it is a major step forward. She almost certainly died upto 7 days prior to this burial, but I have searched high & low, without success, for a death event in Ancestry, FindMyPast, FS, Deceased Online, GRO, Find A Grave, & all the Free... websites & have found nothing !!! I have also done wide-ranging searches for different name spellings etc. The fact that Margaret's name was spelt correctly on the grave list, & that she was buried in quite a fancy cemetery, makes me think that she was loved by her husband [a Coal Dealer]. I also think that as the cemetery was for Dissenters, there might possibly be connections with Non-Conformist Churches. Once I get a GRO reference, I shall immediately order her death cert !! If you are able to help further, I would be very grateful. With best wishes, Michael
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There is a possibility that her death registration was missed when the initial index was made. Alternatively because the index was originally hand written and later typed, she could have been missed off then.
As you can narrow down her death to the latter part of March 1868, I would contact the local Register Office and ask them if they would check their records.
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Thanks for your post & the info therein. I still hold out the hope that I will find out the date & place somehow & get hold of her death cert, as she is in my core FT, & the only date/place missing going back 5 generations
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Do we assume, as Find A Grave don’t list Margaret Hawes at Abney Park, that there’s nothing left to read on her headstone?
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Hello Lily, Thank you for your thoughts on my FT problem. I am not sure about details on any headstone in APC, but I have contacted them to see if they have any further info, [I am waiting for a reply - delayed because of Covid]. I have plot, section & index info as well. Her details in the APC database are very accurate. I do wonder whether FMG have not got info from APC. I have come across this with Ilford Cemetery, which is not on their database either. Any further info or thoughts from you would be very helpful. Best wishes, Michael
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The very extensive records for Abney Park Cemetery are held at Hackney Archives and are accessed there on microfilm.
https://hackney.gov.uk/archives
They're currently closed, of course, but they're answering remote email enquires.
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The records on the Abney Park Trust website (link below) indicate Margaret is in a public grave (B07:042219), so unlikely to have a headstone.
http://www.devsys.co.uk/AP/
You can use the 'Basic Search' option without having to register.
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She was buried in Abney Park Cemetery, Stoke Newington, Middlesex, UK, on 20 Oct 1868. She lived at 57 Margaret Street, Haggerstone, Middlesex
Margaret Street was in Haggerston East sub-district.
In the GRO death indexes for Dec qtr 1868, Haggerston East death registrations seem to start on page 149 (in volume 1c). RD is Shoreditch.
From a couple of other burials found, it looks probable that, if she died at home, Margaret's death might be expected to be indexed on either page 149 or 150.
There should be 10 names with the GRO same reference, though FreeBMD have only 7 transcribed for page 149, and 8 for page 150.
Then have 10 transcribed for page 151. (Page 148 has only 6, the reason being that it looks to be the end of deaths registered in Haggerston West).
FreeBMD may have simply mistranscribed some page references or missed some entries that were indexed on those two pages, or there may be another reason.
Have you tried contacting Hackney Register Office?
The GRO indexes were not handwritten in 1868, they were printed.
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No sign in Shoreditch on new GRO death index :(
Her son William Sivell Hawes was born in 57 Mgt St on 16 May 1868, who was buried near his mother on 1 Apr 1869.
Died in West Ham
March 1869 West Ham 4a 10
Hawes, William Swell
age 0
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Thanks for that info, I will try them, although I see they suffered a major cyber attack a couple of months ago, but hope this has not affected the Abney Park Cemetery records
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She was buried in Abney Park Cemetery, Stoke Newington, Middlesex, UK, on 20 Oct 1868. She lived at 57 Margaret Street, Haggerstone, Middlesex
Margaret Street was in Haggerston East sub-district.
In the GRO death indexes for Dec qtr 1868, Haggerston East death registrations seem to start on page 149 (in volume 1c). RD is Shoreditch.
From a couple of other burials found, it looks probable that, if she died at home, Margaret's death might be expected to be indexed on either page 149 or 150.
There should be 10 names with the GRO same reference, though FreeBMD have only 7 transcribed for page 149, and 8 for page 150.
Then have 10 transcribed for page 151. (Page 148 has only 6, the reason being that it looks to be the end of deaths registered in Haggerston West).
FreeBMD may have simply mistranscribed some page references or missed some entries that were indexed on those two pages, or there may be another reason.
Have you tried contacting Hackney Register Office?
The GRO indexes were not handwritten in 1868, they were printed.
I hope to contact them soon, thank you very much, this is very useful !
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The records on the Abney Park Trust website (link below) indicate Margaret is in a public grave (B07:042219), so unlikely to have a headstone.
http://www.devsys.co.uk/AP/
You can use the 'Basic Search' option without having to register.
Very helpful. A bit discouraged that she probably does not have a headstone. Have you got any tips for finding out her date &/or place of death [possibly from the Abney Park Cemetery authorities or Hackney Council?] Thanks
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Have you got any tips for finding out her date &/or place of death [possibly from the Abney Park Cemetery authorities or Hackney Council?] Thanks
As I've said above (reply #8), the cemetery records are at Hackney Archives (not at Abney Park, or Hackney Council).
https://hackney.gov.uk/archives
It can be rather hard to get things done at the moment, but Hackney Archives do claim to be answering remote email enquires.
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Many thanks for that
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Usual Abode on Abney Park Cemetery Burial Register was Margaret Street, Haggerstone, Middx. The Name of the Officiating Minister, Date of Death Cert, & Registrar Name & District are blank - I don't know what the significance of these omissions is, & would be interested to know, if anyone has any ideas as to why
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Usual Abode on Abney Park Cemetery Burial Register was Margaret Street, Haggerstone, Middx. The Name of the Officiating Minister, Date of Death Cert, & Registrar Name & District are blank - I don't know what the significance of these omissions is, & would be interested to know, if anyone has any ideas as to why
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Has anyone any ideas as to why this direct tree member of my family has fields mentioned in her burial record left blank [please see quote for details]. I would be very very grateful for any help or thoughts about this
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I’m sorry I can’t help you, I just wonder if you have seen other Abney Park Burial Registers, from the same time, to see if they are also left blank, or is there something unusual about this one.
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Thanks Lily for your thoughts on this bizarre record. I am trying to get a copy of the next page in the APC Register for that very reason at the moment. I also wondered whether it might be because her death was a Coroner's Case or something. I am scratching the bottom of the barrel a bit here ! Any further thoughts or ideas are VERY, VERY WELCOME !!!!
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Hello Folks, I have looked at the next page after the partly filled burial record of Margaret. The first entry was a mistake & is crossed out. It was partly completed as well, but interestingly was a copy of the entry just before Margaret's entry. Altogether, 4 pages that I now have show no other problems. So still a bit of a pickle. Any thoughts or ideas would be very welcome
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The Name of the Officiating Minister, Date of Death Cert, & Registrar Name & District are blank
Hi
I can't explain the why there is no minister named, but we never found a death registration, so I guess it is kind of logical that the other fields are blank. In other words, if there was no death certificate, the other fields couldn't be filled in :-\
John
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Thanks John, I will wait & see if Hackney Registrars Office is able to restore their local registrations & old BMD certificates database after the hack, [they are not optimistic about that]. They say their attempts to do this may take a further 4-6m at least. I am prepared to wait, & if necessary visit their Office, when Covid-19 restrictions allow. Best wishes, Michael. PS: APC must have had some paperwork to legally bury her, so my search must continue !
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Are Hackney saying they only hold the BMDs online? If so, did they say where the pre-digitilised copies are now?
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Hello Lily, Thanks for your further thoughts. I am not sure whether the Hackney Registrars Office have pre-digitalisation copies of their records. Due you mean the original paper copies, or microfilm copies, or some other type of copy of the original records/certs? They have told me that the had 2 digital copies of all their data, & both of these were interfered with by the hacker. They are not sure how effective any recovery of their digital data will be, or how long it will take, but said it would be months at least. I will obviously get back to the HRO to try to clarify. Best wishes, Michael