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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Caithness => Topic started by: S13P on Saturday 13 February 21 04:49 GMT (UK)
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I have hit a brick wall and am so confused. If anyone could help me I would really appreciate it.
My 3x Great grandmother was named Elizabeth Mackay she was born between 1865-1868 her fathers name was Robert Mackay he was married to ??? Sutherland. When I am reading her death certificate I can't read the first name of her mother and I cant seem to find where she was born.
There is no marriage certificate that I can find. It looks like she had 7-8 illegitimate children between 1890-1908. On some of the marriage certificates for her children she had a maiden name of Sinclair but I am not sure about that as I can find her in the census at 23 years old and she is a mackay then and has 2 children, living as servant and single.
Does anyone have any advice on how to read the name for her death certificate? Also how would i add the photo to show you what it says. Really any advice you can give me to move forward would be great.
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Hi , welcome to RC :)
Thread here about attaching images -
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=130922.0
Simple instructions -
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,185004.0.html
Also keep in mind , the information on the death certificate would only be to the best knowledge of the informant.
Did the Census you found give her birthplace as Caithness ?
ev
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There are two Robert McKay - Sutherland marriages recorded 1855-1870:
Robert McKay m Bettsey Sutherland - Thurso 1857
Robert McKay m Jane Sutherland - Golspie 1860
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"Elizabeth Mackay born 1865-1868 - I can find her in the census at 23 years old and she is a mackay"
What is the info. on the birth certs. of all her children regarding her name as this is where to begin?
Can you give us all the details from the 1891 census or direct us to it so we can have a look?
Where in Caithness do these events occur, it's a big place?
There are quite a few Elizabeth MacKay births in Caithness 1865 - 1868
One in particular...
Elizabeth Mackay 24 Feb 1866 Thurso, Caithness, Scotland
Father's Name Robert Mackay
Mother's Name Margaret Mackay
Annie
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Also this record to consider if mother's maiden surname was Sutherland , however father's name is John :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY5D-H2R
ev
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Welcome to RootsChat from me too :)
Is this Elizabeth in 1891 and the entry you have:
William Sutherland 52 farmer b. Sutherland, Laira (spl?...likely Lairg)
Helen Sutherland 49 wife b. Halkirk
Lizzie Mackay 23 domestic servant. A/try have her birth place as Sutherland, Strathpaladah ::)
William S Mackay 1 Grand Nephew b. Halkirk
Bell Gordon Mackay 2 months Grand Niece b. Halkirk
Address: Harpsdale Road, Halkirk, Caithness
If the relationships are correct, Elizabeth's mother would have been a sibling of William Sutherland (assuming wife Helen is not also a Sutherland by birth). The S for William Jnr looks to be for Sutherland going by his birth reg on SP.
Have you found her and children in 1901 or 1911?
Monica
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From what we have, this may be Elizabeth in 1901:
Elizabeth Mackay 38 Head farm servant b. Reay, Caithness
William Sutherland 11 Son
Isabella Gordon 10 Daur
John Mackay 7 Son
Hugh Mackay 5 Son
Catherine Green 3 Daur
Address: Sinclair St, Halkirk
Change in birth place for Elizabeth. More confirmation is needed for sure.
Monica
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Isabella Gordon MacKay , birth Feb. 1891 -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTX9-S2W
ev
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There is this birth as a possible, but names are all getting mixed about :-\
Elizabeth Mackay
Birth 15 Sep 1864 Reay, Caithness
Mother: Elizabeth Mackay
This birth place would fit for that 1901 entry...but not for the 1891 entry.
Monica
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Woah you guys dont mess around. I only went to sleep for a few hours. I will include all the information that I have.
So yes In the 1891 census
William Sutherland 52 farmer b. Sutherland, Laira (spl?...likely Lairg)
Helen Sutherland 49 wife b. Halkirk
Lizzie Mackay 23 domestic servant. A/try have her birth place as Sutherland, Strathpaladah ::)
William S Mackay 1 Grand Nephew b. Halkirk
Bell Gordon Mackay 2 months Grand Niece b. Halkirk
I do wonder if this was her relative, but I also wonder if maybe she had the first child william with the owner of this farm? Her second child was name Isabella Gordon, which is William Sutherlands mother. There is also a mistake on the ages of William and Helen because helen was 15 years older then William on their marriage certificate. She is Helen Dick before marriage.
In the 1901 census I have Elizabeth living in Halkirk on Sinclair with the following people
Elizabeth HEAD 38 Farm servant saying she was born in REAY.
William Sutherland 11
Isabella Gordon 10
John Mackay 7
Hugh Mackay 5
Catherine Green 3
All children were born in Halkirk.
In 1911 Census in Thurso on High Street
Lizzie Mackay HEAD 41 born at Halkirk Parish
Bella Millier 20
Kate Mackay 12
James 6
Notta 4
Jennie 3
Williamina Millier Granddaughter 9 months
All her kids again born in Halkirk.
I do have connection to Isabella Gordons family, and they are stuck like me we cant seem to find anything for Elizabeth before 1891.
Any help would be appreciated I also included her death certificate and maybe you guys might be able to read the moms first name.
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I don't see a cap letter J to compare but...could mother's first name be Jeanie?
The most common name variant of Jean is normally Jane, although there are others. See www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Jean.html
Monica
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A possible birth?:
Jane Elizabeth Sutherland
Born 28 July 1868 Clyne Sutherland
Mother Jane Sutherland
This comes from the Family Search birth indexes. Original on SP.
Monica
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There are also earlier birth index entries for children to a Robert Mackay and Jane Sutherland:
James 28 June 1862 (he died a month later)
Jamima 2 June 1863
These show in Clyne Sutherland.
ADDED: At least 8 children showing for this couple, but no Elizabeth. The other births were also at Lairg and Golspie.
1871 census entry for them at Lairg, Sutherland:
Robert Mackay 31 farm servant
Jane Mackay 38
John Mackay 10
Jemima Mackay 10
Alexander Mackay 6
Robert Mackay 4
Jessie Gregg Mackay 2
Address: Milnclarin, Lairg
No Elizabeth, daughter, showing for this family :-\
Monica
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Monica,
I think it's quite possible the birth you posted could be correct...
Elizabeth Sutherland
Born 28 July 1868 Clyne Sutherland
Mother Jane Sutherland
From the info. on the DC, Robert & Jane don't appear to have been married i.e. if Robert wasn't present when registering the birth...?
Annie
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I notice that Elizabeth's mother's surname is listed on that certificate as plain Sutherland, not as Mackay M S Sutherland, the implication being that Elizabeth was illegitimate. So her birth was probably registered as Sutherland rather than Mackay.
Edit: this post crossed with Annie's.
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There are also earlier birth index entries for children to a Robert Mackay and Jane Sutherland:
James 28 June 1862 (he died a month later)
Jamima 2 June 1863
These show in Clyne Sutherland.
ADDED: At least 8 children showing for this couple, but no Elizabeth. The other births were also at Lairg and Golspie.
1871 census entry for them at Lairg, Sutherland:
Robert Mackay 31 farm servant
Jane Mackay 38
John Mackay 10
Jemima Mackay 10
Alexander Mackay 6
Robert Mackay 4
Jessie Gregg Mackay 2
Address: Milnclarin, Lairg
No Elizabeth, daughter, showing for this family :-\
Monica
Jessie Mackay, daughter of Robert Mackay, was born 20 March 1869, and her elder brother Robert on 28 March 1867, so there's not really room for Elizabeth in between, so it looks as if this is a different Robert Mackay and Jane Sutherland.
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A possible entry for Elizabeth in 1871 showing as a niece in the household:
Hugh McDonald 54 Tenant b. Farr, Sutherland
Elizabeth McDonald 40 wife b. Lairg, Sutherland
Hugh I McDonald 8 b. Reay, Sutherland
Elizabeth McKay 4 niece b. Reay, Sutherland
Address: Achumore, Reay Caithness
Elizabeth Sutherland above married Hugh McDonald in 1852. So, with this possible entry and the 1891 census entry for niece Elizabeth with William Sutherland, also from Lairg....you would think that their sister (Jean/Jane) was mother to Elizabeth?
Maybe checking for parents for this Elizabeth Sutherland and the William Sutherland we had from 1891, it would let you check whether there is a Jane/Jean in the family?
Monica
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Lizzie Mackay 23 domestic servant. A/try have her birth place as Sutherland, Strathpaladah
1891 FreeCEN transcription has Strathhaladale.
ev
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That census from 1871 looks promising, I have been trying to find her in 1871 with no luck. I have been looking for her with her mother and maybe she wasn't living with her mom. I will look for the parents of William Sutherland his marriage certificate lists his parents are Donald Sutherland and Isabella Gordon.
Since you guys have all the info I also wanted to ask about the way she named her kids. It looks like she took the last name of the father of the child and placed them as a middle name? Is that something that was done? So my great grandma was Katie Green on the census and her birth certificate says Elizabeth Catherine Green Mackay. The other kids its the same type of thing. She has a boy name John Sinclair Mackay, or like the oldest William Sutherland Mackay (only went by sutherland as an adult.) Or Isabella Gordon Mackay on her marriage certificate it lists her father s John Gordon. Am i just creating a pattern? Or how did they name illegitimate children?
So when I looked through her kids here youngest kid is name Jane so maybe that might be here mothers name. She also went by Jennie. But when I look at 2 of her kids marriage certificates it says the mothers maiden name is Sinclair. But i have no idea why it's only on some of the kids info and not others.
I wonder if maybe she did marry someone to get the last name mackay? I didn't look because everyone told me she never married, but now I'm questioning everything I was ever told. I'll be looking for marriages for her under Sutherland. Or could she just take on her dads last name?
Sorry so many questions. I'm just trying to ask them all because of the delay in my posts which i think is due to the time difference. I really appreciate all the effort you guys have already put in. Thank you for helping me with my search.
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Yes, it's not unusual for illegitimate children to be given their father's name as a middle name.
As for how they appear in later records, there are no rules. Sometimes you find them listed with their mother's surname and sometimes with their father's.
As for Elizabeth marrying someone named Mackay, that death certificate says she was single, so that is probably not a very fruitful line of enquiry.
Lizzie Mackay 23 domestic servant. A/try have her birth place as Sutherland, Strathpaladah
1891 FreeCEN transcription has Strathhaladale.
I wondered if it was Strath Halladale. Part of Strath Halladale is in the parish of Reay, so that would fit with the 1871 census.
Achumore is probably a mistranscription of Achamore. See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=58.50106&lon=-3.88719&layers=5&b=1
There's a birth of Elizabeth Sutherland, mother Alexandrina Sutherland, in Reay on 19 July 1867.
And in the 1861 census Alexandrina Sutherland, 14, is a servant in the household of Hugh McDonald and Elizabeth Sutherland in Reay. Too much of a coincidence?
I think you should ask Scotland's People for a re-scan of Elizabeth Mackay's death certificate to see what her mother's given name was.
Elizabeth Sutherland, wife of Hugh MacDonald, was the daughter of .... wait for it .... Donald Sutherland and Isabella Gordon :) Calgarry Beg is just a hop, skip and a jump downriver from Achamore. See the same map extract above.
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A possible entry for her in 1881. Now offers possible connections to the McKay side from her father's side hopefully!
William Mackay 72 Chelsea Pensioner b Farr Sutherland
Mary McKay 56 wife b. Edinburgh
Donald McKay 18 son agr. lab. b. Farr
Betsey McKay 13 niece b. Reay Caithness
Address: Achina, Kirkton Farr, Sutherland
Monica
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This William McKay from 1861 I think only married in 1861, to a Mary Mckay, 17 October 1861 in Farr Sutherland. You could check his marriage entry for parents, and as with the Sutherlands, try to work from there to aim to connect to Robert McKay.
The 1861 census has Willilam with his sister and another niece:
William Mckay 58 Tenant Of 2 Acres & Chelsea Pensioner b. Farr
Betty Mckay 54 sister b. Farr
Marey Mckay 32 niece b. Farr
By 1871, he had married Mary and had son Donald on 23 Sept 1862 Farr. No more children I think.
Monica
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On some of the marriage certificates for her children she had a maiden name of Sinclair
There's a birth of Elizabeth Sutherland, mother Alexandrina Sutherland, in Reay on 19 July 1867
Did that Alexandrina Sutherland marry David Sinclair in 1872 Reay Caithness ?
ev
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Did that Alexandrina Sutherland marry David Sinclair in 1872 Reay Caithness ?
I cant seem to find that on SP but will keep looking.
As for Elizabeth marrying someone named Mackay, that death certificate says she was single, so that is probably not a very fruitful line of enquiry.
I agree with this, I can't imagine her marrying and with 8 kids from different fathers I don't imagine many would have married her either. :(
There's a birth of Elizabeth Sutherland, mother Alexandrina Sutherland, in Reay on 19 July 1867.
And in the 1861 census Alexandrina Sutherland, 14, is a servant in the household of Hugh McDonald and Elizabeth Sutherland in Reay. Too much of a coincidence?
I think you should ask Scotland's People for a re-scan of Elizabeth Mackay's death certificate to see what her mother's given name was.
Elizabeth Sutherland, wife of Hugh MacDonald, was the daughter of .... wait for it .... Donald Sutherland and Isabella Gordon :) Calgarry Beg is just a hop, skip and a jump downriver from Achamore. See the same map extract above.
This information seems quite promising, and I will try to find this line today. I did send SP a email and asked for a new scan so hopefully that will come sooner rather then later.
A possible entry for her in 1881. Now offers possible connections to the McKay side from her father's side hopefully!
William Mackay 72 Chelsea Pensioner b Farr Sutherland
Mary McKay 56 wife b. Edinburgh
Donald McKay 18 son agr. lab. b. Farr
Betsey McKay 13 niece b. Reay Caithness
Address: Achina, Kirkton Farr, Sutherland
Monica
I am also going to look at this today. I don't know why I didn't think to look under Beth, or Betsy, I've always looked for Lizzie as she is listed as that on the older census, but I guess she could have gone by a couple different names.
Again thank you all you've all been so helpful and patient with my questions.
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This is from the marriage index on SP, with the details that Ev provided:
ALEXANDRINA SUTHERLAND and DAVID SINCLAIR
1872
040/ 5
Reay
And a possibility for her death:
ALEXANDRINA SUTHERLAND
Age 49
1896
041/ 38
Thurso
Monica
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Yes, that death is Alexandrina Sutherland, other surname Sinclair.
Aged 49 gives DoB 1846/1847, which is exactly right for the 14-year-old in the 1861 census. Definitely worth a look at that marriage certificate.
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The Sinclair family in 1881 in Halkirk:
David Sinclair 50 Quarry Lab b. Halkirk
Alexina 35 b. Lairg Sutherland
David J 5 b. Halkirk
Donald 3 b. Halkirk
James 1 b. Halkirk
Birth place looks good for Alexina.
Monica
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Alexandrina, showing under variant Lexy in 1851. Mother Isabella Gordon looks to have died sometime after her birth? Donald, father, is showing as a widower on FreeCen. Everyone born in Lairg:
Donald Sutherland 50 tenant
Peggy Sutherland 20
Donald Sutherland 12
Mary Sutherland 7
Lexy Sutherland 3
Donald Mcleod 1 grandson
Address: Culmaily, Lairg, Sutherland
Monica
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And my last for now to let you work through and confirm...
This looks like the Sutherland family from 1851 in the same place for 1841:
Donald Sutherland 40 agr. lab.
Isabella Gordon 35
Elspet Sutherland 14
Gorgersa Sutherland 10...this is Georgina
John Sutherland 7
William Sutherland 5
Donald Sutherland 2
There are OPR births or christenings for some of the children on SP.
Monica
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I pulled the marriage certificate and you guys are right. This is the same family.
So maybe this is how she got the last name Sinclair included on some of the birth certificates?
What next steps would you take, I am waiting for a response from SP in reagrds to the rescan. But do you think its safe to assume that Alexandrina is Elizabeths mother?
Or should I stop and wait for the rescan?
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You do need the confirmation from the rescan that you have the right mother, but I think you very likely have the right family for Elizabeth's mother. I don't know how quickly SP may respond on the rescan, or indeed, whether they can do this at present with the covid closures :-\
If you I would have things in pencil until you hear back, but would carry on researching this group. Both the Sutherland and McKay families.
Monica
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A possible entry for her in 1881. Now offers possible connections to the McKay side from her father's side hopefully!
William Mackay 72 Chelsea Pensioner b Farr Sutherland
Mary McKay 56 wife b. Edinburgh
Donald McKay 18 son agr. lab. b. Farr
Betsey McKay 13 niece b. Reay Caithness
Address: Achina, Kirkton Farr, Sutherland
1891 census in Farr (transcription): William Mackay, 85; wife Mary Mackay, 64; niece Betsy Mackay, 23, unmarried. All born in Farr. So either he has two nieces of the same age named Betsy Mackay, one born in Reay and the other in Farr, or this is a different Elizabeth/Lizzie/Betsy Mackay.
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Ok so I went and pulled Elizabeth Sutherland birth certificate and it had illegitimate across it but then there was another correction saying the father as Robert Mackay. Guys I really think you’ve solved my family mystery. I’ve attached the images for your assessment.
I don’t know what words to even say to express my gratitude. I have been stuck on this for months. You are all so amazing. Thank you.
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Excellent! :)
Identifying Robert Mackay is the next challenge, then.
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Perfect! The best type of confirmation of the details ;)
Monica