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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: Wodgemac on Friday 19 February 21 15:03 GMT (UK)
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I posted the other year about Selina Oakes born 1844 and had some very helpful replies.
However it has created another mystery.
The replies told me that her mother was Jane Roberts born Warrington in 1818ish and her father was Thomas Oakes, born in Styall, Cheshire 1808ish.
Selina had a sister called Elizabeth Ann.
The information I have so far is:
1844 Selina born on 26th June Styall, Pownall Fee, to Thomas Oakes, Farmer and Ann Oakes nee Roberts (not Jane).
1847 Elizabeth Ann born 14th March in Everton, to Thomas Oakes, a labourer and Ann Oakes nee Roberts.
1851 census living at Gorton Brook, Manchester, Thomas 34 Carter born in Styall Cheshire
Jane born in Warrington
Ellen 7
Elizabeth (all the rest is unreadable due to water
damage).
1861 census living at 307 John st. (right next to Gorton Brook).
Thomas 43 Watchman Morley Wilmslow (close to
Styall).
Jane 31 Warrington.
Helena Cotton weaver 16 Stean Green, Warrington
(Never heard of it)
Elizabeth cotton weaver 14 Liverpool.
Sarah Thornby sister in law 30 Warrington
1863 19th August, Jane Oakes nee Roberts dies aged 32 from sudden death, natural causes!!!!!! wife of Thomas Oakes watchman, living in Gorton Brook.
1864 October 2nd Elizabeth Ann Oakes marries Joseph Vernon a Carter. Elizabeth is aged 20? a corr keeper? her father Thomas a farmer. Both living at Gorton Brook.
1865 25th Feb, Elizabeth Vernon dies aged 20 of pneumonia, wife of Joseph Vernon a carter living at 1 John Street.
1865 October 1st Joseph Vernon a carter and widower marries Selina Oakes. He's living at 6 John st
she is 25 living at 2 John st. and her father is Thomas a watchman.
1868 November 7th Thomas Oakes 49 a widower and labourer marries Eliza Sherrat a widower both living on Pinapple st Openshaw. Thomas's father is Thomas.
There are a few discrepancies in the story:
Jane being Ann on the birth certificates
Selina being Ellen then Helena, before being Selina and her birth place in Warrington, which I think is a mistake.
Thomas Oakes job changes, which is very possible.
Could somebody possibly check the the facts for me please and tell me if they're right or wrong.
And Parents for Thomas Oakes, I do have a possibility for one born in Pownall fee? And Jane/Ann Roberts in Warrington.
I couldn't find any information sister in law Sarah Thornby aged 30 born in Warrington on the 1861 census
Thanks in advance
Richard McGrorey
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Link to other post
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=775334.0
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couldn't find any information sister in law Sarah Thornby aged 30 born in Warrington on the 1861 censu
s
Can't see it at all - who else is on that census please?
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couldn't find any information sister in law Sarah Thornby aged 30 born in Warrington on the 1861 censu
s
Can't see it at all - who else is on that census please?
RG09
Piece number 2872
Folio 118
Page 50
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1861 census living at 307 John st. (right next to Gorton Brook).
Thomas 43 Watchman Morley Wilmslow (close to
Styall).
Jane 31 Warrington.
Helena Cotton weaver 16 Stean Green, Warrington
(Never heard of it)
Elizabeth cotton weaver 14 Liverpool.
Sarah Thornby sister in law 30 Warrington
307 is the Schedule number not a House number.
F M P have transcribed the family as Oak
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Thank you I wasn't looking properly :-[
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307 is the Schedule number not a House number.
F M P have transcribed the family as Oak
Ahh yes, sorry it's number 1 isn't it.
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307 is the Schedule number not a House number.
F M P have transcribed the family as Oak
Ahh yes, sorry it's number 1 isn't it.
It is not clear on there what the house number is there is no number mentioned, the entries on that 'Census Piece' flit between Gorton Brook & John St plus other streets.
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Sorry, I didn't have my glasses on... so it could be 2 or 6 or any other number on John street???
I have copies of Selina's birth certificate, wedding (on Ancestry) and death certificate in 1923
I have Thomas marrying Eliza Sherrat on ancestry, but I can't find him marrying a Roberts.
I also have copies of Elizabeth's birth, marriage to Joseph Vernon and death certificate
and a copy of Jane Oakes nee Vernon's death certificate, but I don't have anything on Thomas
Another point is that, if Selina's mother was Jane Oakes who died in 1863 aged 32, then, when she had Selina in 1844 she would've been 13???
Is there any chance Anne Oakes died after 1847 and Thomas married Jane, but they never had any children between them?
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Sarah Thornby looks like "sister visitor" in 1861 to me.
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Hi,
I can't see a death for Jane Oakes in 1863 age 32.
Have you the death certificate?
Alan
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I think it is listed as Jane Oaks.
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Hi,
Thank you, I see it now.
Interestingly there are 2 Selina's born 1844 - Selina Oakes born Sept Qtr 1844 mothers maiden name Roberts, and Selina Oaks born Dec Qtr 1844 mothers maiden name Rycroft.
According to trees on Ancestry Selina Oakes parents were Thomas Oakes and Frances Rycroft but GRO records show her birth surname as Oaks. Some of the trees say she was the one who married Joseph Vernon (not the one with Roberts maiden name).
There is possibly some mix up here as famiysearch say Selina Oakes from Allostock (father Thomas Oakes) married Peter Leigh Ledward in 1865 in Northwich age 20.
More work needed perhaps?
Alan
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Hi,
Having looked on Lancs on line parish records there is an Ann Roberts who was a daughter to William Roberts and Martha and was baptised at Sankey Chapel, Great Sankey, Warrington on 2 May 1819. Fathers occupation was Husbandman and abode at that time was Burtonwood.
There were also baptisms at the same chapel for an elder brother and sister when their abode was Great Sankey -
William Roberts - baptised on 14 April 1816 and
Jane Roberts - baptised on 27 March 1814
Alan
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Hi Al,
Yes I have a copy of her death certificate, she died of sudden death, natural causes aged 32!!!
I initially went along the line of thinking my Selina Oakes was the one from Allostock, until somebody pointed out that she married Peter Ledeard and they lived in Plumley. The post that is attached to this was asking to confirm it for me.
Do you think that could be the right birth for Jane Roberts? Even if it's the wrong age??
Thanks
Richard
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Sorry, I didn't have my glasses on... so it could be 2 or 6 or any other number on John street???
There are no house numbers showing on the census for John Street, you may have to look at other properties nearby to work out where it was situated
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Hi Richard,
Jane dying in 1863 age 32 is the thing I am struggling with - it suggests she would have been born c1831 and then had her first child in 1844?
If she was born c1820 she would have been around mid 40's when she died - perhaps she "lost"10 years?
Is the one I posted "your" Ann/Jane - I really don't know - if you are certain she was born c1831, Lancs opc doesn't show a Jane born in Warrington area but there is an Ann Roberts daughter of Wright Roberts and Ann - baptised on 9 May 1832 at St Oswald, Winwick, Warrington - Abode is Croft and fathers occupation is shown as a Weaver.
Alan
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Al,
That's what I can't get my head around...
If she was 32 when she died, then it means she was 13 when she had Selina...
But why was her name recorded as Anne in the two birth certificates?
I have copies of both.
Are Ann and Jane two separate people?
If so, what happened to Ann Roberts and who is Jane?
Richard
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Hi Richard,
The only other thing I may have found is a 1841 census record at Pownall Fee, Wilmslow which shows Thomas Oakes age 20, Ann Oakes age 20, Mary Oakes age 20. Caroline Oakes age 9 months, and Eliza Oakes age 5.
Tried to find Caroline's birth registration to get mothers maiden name without success.
Seems to me that Thomas probably lost his first wife Ann following the children's birth, and then married Jane but again I am struggling to find records to prove this to be the case.
Alan
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Sarah Thornby looks like "sister visitor" in 1861 to me.
So she could be Thomas's sister??
Al I have a Thomas Oakes baptised in Ringway on 29th June 1819 on ancestry, his father Thomas, which is correct and mother Mary Walton
Ringway is very close to Styall, do you think this could be him?
Richard
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Hi Richard,
Thomas was christened in 1817 according to Ancestry, but there is also a christening of a Mary Oakes on 15 Feb 1822 to Thomas and Mary (also another Mary christened on 17 April 1820). Assume one of these Mary's died.
These details seem to more or less tie in to the 1841 census I found so look promising. If Thomas was christened at Ringway maybe his "wife" Ann also came from that area?
I imagine Sarah Thornby is just a visitor and has no family connection,
Still lots of questions and no real answers.
Alan
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Hi Al,
I've found the 1841 census on ancestry, but it's not very clear.
I've searched the GRO indexes for a birth and death of Caroline up to 1851, but not found anything...
I have found a death of Anne Oakes in the December quarter of 1847, but she's 59. There's one in Stockport aged 19 in 1847 and one in Salford aged 36 in 1848...
Like you say, more questions than answers!!!
Richard
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I've found a marriage for a Thomas Oakes and Mary Walton on May 10th 1819 in Northendon, which isn't that far from Ringway, but it's Lancashire.
What are the chances of it being Thomas's parent's as per his birth in 1817??
Richard
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Hi Richard,
Seems reasonable to me, Northenden/Sale are very close to Altrincham and just to add to the mix I have found a death of a Mary Ann Oakes Dec Qtr 1848 age 26 Macclesfield District Vol 19 Page 115 - its a bit of a stretch but if it is her perhaps she was "known" as Ann?
Alan
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Thanks Alan,
I'll have a look for it and see if I can get a copy.
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Hi Al,
I've received the death certificate of Mary Ann Oakes in Macclesfield and it's not her.
She's the wife of Matthew Oakes Stone Mason living at Dangerous corner in Adlington (what a great name).
It seems a shame to waste the certificate though, do you know if there's some site to share it on, if anybody is researching that link.
Richard
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Hi Richard,
Sorry it didn't work.
If you use the search button and put in "unwanted certificates" you should be able to post a suitable message. Alternatively just post an item on the Cheshire Board.
Alan
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No worries Alan,
I'll have a look at sharing the certificate
Thanks for all your help
Richard