RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Talacharn on Saturday 20 February 21 14:13 GMT (UK)
-
Hi, My questions relate to a marriage in 1949 England.
On the marriage certificate, different addresses were given in the town. Is there a length of time they have to be resident before marrying? Three months before, their child was born in Manchester.
Married in a Roman Catholic church, if either were from, what is now the Republic of Ireland, would anything else like documentation be required? That year, the Republic was formed.
Talacharn
-
An RC church might ask to see a baptism certificate, to show they were Catholic.
There is no time limit that you have to live at an address before you can marry - it would be the address they were living at (or gave) at the time they gave notice to the registrar (being RC , it wouldn't be "by banns").
-
Their could be a note in the baptism register in their home parish too.
My parents marriage in 1937 in England, is annotated on the register for my father’s baptism.
-
Thanks for your comments. An RC marriage is a first in my family.
Would the church have further details?
I would like to trace where he was from.
I cannot imagine any notice in her former church, she was not RC.
From the family, it is believed he was from the Republic of Ireland, but that may not be accurate.
-
I thought you meant that you knew the couple were both Irish.
The first thing would be to get the marriage certificate for his father’s name.
It would be difficult to go back to a birth record for your man but the certificate is a start.
Did they marry in Manchester?
The church records where they were married might have a note.
Scroll down for Parish registers
https://www.dioceseofsalford.org.uk/diocese/archives/
-
The marriage certificate arrived this morning.
I have the father's name (deceased) and occupation. The age suggests he was born in 1925.
Looking at FamilySearch it is a common name, which is not narrowed any with the father's name. I cannot find anything other, like census records that identify families.
She was not Irish. I am still waiting for the certificates but it seems they had a child 3 months before in Manchester, but did not marry there. He travelled because of his work, so married 90 miles away. I need to wait for the birth certificate to arrive, which may give more information.
-
That’s difficult.
Irish civil births are online to 1920 at https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
-
Also, bear in mind that the last available Irish census is 1911.
-
An RC church might ask to see a baptism certificate, to show they were Catholic.
There is no time limit that you have to live at an address before you can marry - it would be the address they were living at (or gave) at the time they gave notice to the registrar (being RC , it wouldn't be "by banns").
Banns would have been read in church on 3 Sundays.
Were marriage witnesses relatives?
-
Hi, My questions relate to a marriage in 1949 England.
Married in a Roman Catholic church, if either were from, what is now the Republic of Ireland, would anything else like documentation be required? That year, the Republic was formed.
Nothing to do with being married in the church but the marriage happened at a time when identity cards were required for travel between the islands of Ireland and Britain because of WW2. U.K. government introduced travel ID cards in 1940 and the Irish Free State required them under the Emergency Powers Act 1941. Travel documentation was required until 1952. An example https://www.papertotravel.com/MP-99 "... all persons should be in possession of a passport, travel identification card, travel permit card or other official document of identity. "
Ireland and Britain were in a Common Travel Area for immigration purposes before and after that period.
Similar to heywood reply 2, my parents' marriage is noted in my mother's baptism register.
-
Banns would have been read in church on 3 Sundays.
Not for an RC marriage.
You might get lucky though if the church kept its own marriage register as many RC parishes did. Often in Latin, they can sometimes give more information about those getting married than you would get from the civil register copy.
I found one in a Liverpool RC parish that confirmed the mother and father of the bride and groom (my ancestors) and crucially said where in Ireland they came from and even where the two witnesses came from, none of which (other than the father's name) was on the "official" register.
-
Thanks for the replies.
I do not want to give names, as some may still be alive, their child certainly is.
They divorced, so I cannot be 100% certain he has died.
According to her relatives, he was from the Republic of Ireland, but from what I have found, they were wrong regarding other information they believed, so I assume it to be the case, but again not 100%.
They had a child 5 months before the marriage, probably not mentioned, but on the marriage certificate, they were living at different addresses.
He gave full information.
She did not give a father's name or occupation. Her parents had separated, so birth registered with the married name, but she married using her mother's maiden name.
She was not RC, but would she have to provide birth details, with that being recorded in the notes?
It may be worth me contacting the church to see if they hold further information.
-
Hi Maiden Stone,
Thanks for your information. That is what I was wondering. Were permits required for all in the UK as well as Ireland? I assume she would have required documentation. Would that have been sufficient to marry rather than a birth certificate?
-
Anthony reply 10. I assure you that marriage banns were read at Mass on 3 Sundays. They used to be read either before or after the sermon, along with death & funeral notices and death anniversaries + other important notices, at the church I attended in my youth in England. I've also seen them on the noticeboard in the church porch.
See also Banns of Marriage 1862-1873 Cathedral Church of St. John the Evangelist, Salford, transcribed on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks www.lan-opc.org.uk/salford/Salford-Central/cathedral/index.html
One of the many reasons for a marriage dispensation in the Catholic Church is a relaxation of banns for one or more Sundays if there was need for a quick wedding.
All the detail in that Liverpool marriage register seems to have been a custom in certain Irish parishes or dioceses. My granddad's 1st wife's family was from County Dublin. Her parents' marriage (1850's) has the same information as your Liverpool register. Registers for my grandma's and granddad's parents' marriages in Mayo don't even name their fathers. Therefore I know the name of my step-grandma's 4 grandparents but not names of my own grandparents' grandparents. An enquiry on here last week produced a mother's name on a church marriage register in County Wicklow. A marriage register for a Catholic church in Bury, Lancs. which dates from 1820's includes names of mothers, abode of parents (usually county if in Ireland) and of witnesses. Then a new priest took over and recorded only minimal information.
-
I agree with Maiden Stone. If I recall, ours were posted on the notice board in the porch, as you say and also at the local registry office.
Talacharn, I think it worth trying the church to see if there were any notes added to the original register. You might also ask if the parish registers have been passed to archives and if so, is there access.
-
To clarify - banns in an RC church are not required, nor a legally valid preliminary for marriage (as CofE ones are). The marriage will still be shown as "by certificate" on the register showing that notice was given to the registrar.
I remember forthcoming marriages being read at at my own RC church as a child, but they don't legally have to be or be recorded - but as you say, some RC churches do seem to have kept them, so if they do exist always worth looking at.
She was not RC, but would she have to provide birth details, with that being recorded in the notes?
If the bride wasn't RC - she almost certainly would have been required to convert at that time. My (Methodist) mother did when she married my (RC) father in 1952.
-
I fear we are digressing here.
However, just to point out, without delving too much into the subject, the requirement to publish Banns was abolished in the Catholic Church in the 1980s.
I know nothing of the Church of England requirements.
Whilst conversion to the faith was encouraged, there was no requirement (forcing) to do so. The other party, I think, and Maiden Stone will clarify, were asked to promise to raise any children in the Catholic faith.
-
I have sent an email to the church asking.
I know the family turned against both of them. There were different issues, so it could be any one of them, or a combination of all.
Her family were church-goers, but CofE, so expectations of the Catholic church may also have contributed.
The marriage ended soon after and the child was placed in a care home.
Thanks for all of your replies, I am gaining a better understanding of what happened at that time.
-
There could be all sorts of issues. Having the child before the marriage might have brought on a marriage that they would not have otherwise committed to.
I hope the church gets back to you - responses can vary.
Best wishes
Heywood
-
Whilst conversion to the faith was encouraged, there was no requirement (forcing) to do so. The other party, I think, and Maiden Stone will clarify, were asked to promise to raise any children in the Catholic faith.
I agree that would have been the situation in 1949.
Many examples of mixed marriages in registers of St. Mary R.C. Bacup on LAN-OPC. There was a high incidence of mixed marriage in the years before WW1 at that church. Dispensations were obtained. A note for one says the marriage took place in the sacristry (room where vestments &c. were kept). My mother mentioned a wedding in our church's porch in 1940's. A lot depended on attitude of the parish priest; ours at the time was dogmatic. (Church porch marriages were the norm in medieval times.)
There were several changes to Catholic canon law on marriage between 1908 (Ne temere encyclical) and 1980's.
St. Mary, Bacup marriage register sometimes included names of mothers and addresses of parents and witnesses.
-
Were permits required for all in the UK as well as Ireland? I assume she would have required documentation. Would that have been sufficient to marry rather than a birth certificate?
My earlier reply to this didn't post and I lost it.
People in UK had identity cards. National Registration Act 1939, repealed 1952. They also had ration books. Rationing ended 1954.
-
I had a response from a lady connected to the church. There are notes, but she wants to talk wih the priest before releasing them and they meet today (Friday). She will contact me again next Friday.
-
Oh that is encouraging. Good luck :)
-
Thanks Heywood and others, without your comments and suggestions I would never have known.
-
Hi All, Just a note to conclude. The lady contacted me again today with a PDF of their notes. Other than being in Latin, it contained much less than the marriage certificate, but confirmed she did not convert to being Catholic. Thanks for your help.
-
Oh dear, that’s a shame.
I would have thought it should have the same details as the marriage certificate though plus those notes.