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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Davedrave on Sunday 21 February 21 09:58 GMT (UK)
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John and Ann Sayers had numerous children baptised in Chelmsford in the 1790’s to early 1800’s, including William in 1797. (This?) William had a younger brother, John*, who seems not to have been baptised, but would have been born in the early 1800’s. All but one of the known baptisms of John and Ann’s children took place at St Mary’s. The last and somewhat later baptism seems to have been at Baddow Lane Independent Chapel. One of theses records gives father John’s occupation: shoemaker.
In 1841 John, “35”, was a shoemaker, living in King Street. In the next street, Rainsford End, was John Sayers, “65”, shoemaker. When William son of (this?) John had his son baptised in 1815 he was living at Gallows End in Chelmsford (which seems to have been in the vicinity of these other streets).
Unfortunately I can find no trace whatsoever of the older John Sayers in the 1851 Census. However, a John Sayers aged “85” was buried at St Mary’s in 1853, and his abode was King Street. How convincingly does this evidence suggest that John Sayers who died in 1853 was father of the brothers?
(*The relationship of brothers William, and John Sayers of King Street is only known due to their trial and criminal conviction in 1842)
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Unless you can find another John Sayers shoemaker having
children at the same time in Chelmsford I would say he's
the father.
Did he leave a will?
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In Bloomsbury in 1851 there is a John N Sayers ?83 Widr Bootmaker born Chelmsford staying with Samuel and Ann Everitt in Bloomsbury. Ann is age 50 born Chelmsford. He is listed as Father.
HO107/1507/377 Pg58
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Unless you can find another John Sayers shoemaker having
children at the same time in Chelmsford I would say he's
the father.
Did he leave a will?
Thanks. Unfortunately they don’t seem to have left will, but I don’t think that the other Sayers seem to include shoemakers, though one of the same generation as John was a harness maker. Johns are not common either.
Dave ;)
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In Bloomsbury in 1851 there is a John N Sayers ?83 Widr Bootmaker born Chelmsford staying with Samuel and Ann Everitt in Bloomsbury. Ann is age 50 born Chelmsford. He is listed as Father.
HO107/1507/377 Pg58
Thank you, this is interesting and I’ll pursue it. I hadn’t envisaged someone of his age gadding about the country! I can find no baptism of an Ann to John and Ann Sayers, but the name itself is suggestive and son (?) John certainly named a daughter Ann.
Dave :)
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A Nicholas John Sayers was baptised in Chelmsford St Mary in July 1768 which fits in well with the age of John N Sayers. I suppose that Mr Sayers could have used his middle name in preference to his first name and called himself John N Sayers in preference to Nicholas J Sayers. Nicholas is a name which doesn’t seem to occur among his (?) children, but maybe he just didn’t like it.
I’m tempted to order the death reg of 85 year old John, but I’m just a bit concerned that I might find that the informant might turn out to be “Mrs Bloggs” next door, and I’ll not actually be any closer to proof than I am now.
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BUT - if you don't ask the question, then you won't get an answer. :) Is £7.00 too much to forfeit? The choice is yours. :-* I know what I'd do. :-X
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BUT - if you don't ask the question, then you won't get an answer. :) Is £7.00 too much to forfeit? The choice is yours. :-* I know what I'd do. :-X
You’ve twisted my arm! ;D
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Oh :-X :-X :-X :-X ;D ;D
Added: Please come back and tell us the result.
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Oh :-X :-X :-X :-X ;D ;D
Added: Please come back and tell us the result.
I will. I always like to finish off my posts where possible just in case anyone stumbles upon one in future and happens to find it of interest.
Dave :)
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Just reporting back on this. 1853: John Sayers died aged 85, shoemaker, in King Street, Chelmsford (no house number given). The informant, present at death, was Ann Remington of King Street.
In the 1851 Census, when this John Sayers had been staying with a daughter in London, Ann Remington, widow, was a former nurse, in receipt of parish relief, in King Street (number 69 on the schedule). She was seemingly alone in her household. At the same time John Sayers, shoemaker, aged 48, who I think was the older John’s son, was about 3 doors away (number 72 on schedule). It’s about as much proof as I am likely to get of John’s relationship to John (and therefore to “my” William), but pretty convincing to me.
John was presumably living with his son when he died, or possibly he was a lodger with Ann Remington.
Dave :)
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All looks pretty convincing to me too, Dave :D
Jan
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All looks pretty convincing to me too, Dave :D
Jan
Thanks for the reassurance,
Dave :)