RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Peter78 on Sunday 21 February 21 16:35 GMT (UK)
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Hi, in conducting some research of my own family history (I'm also researching for the subject of a biography I'm writing) I've managed to get that of my mum's mums father's family to Germany, in particular, Hesse Darnstadt, and the following, that I'd love to know more about, take back further, if possible....
Heinrich Kirchmann (anglicised, Henry Churchman)
b. 1841, Hesse Darnstadt
m. Jane Himsworth
b. Barley Hole, Yorkshire, 1847
Looking therefore for anything regarding Kirchmann/Hesse/German/1840s
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I'm assuming that you have not obtained the marriage certificate for Henry and Jane. It is possible/probable that that would lead you to Henry's father.
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when and how did he arrive in England?
did he ever return to Germany
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when and how did he arrive in England?
did he ever return to Germany
Related thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=844865.msg7117057#msg7117057
reply #6 indicates he was living in Middlesbrough in 1881, and had a child born there c. 1872
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when and how did he arrive in England?
did he ever return to Germany
Something I'd like to find out myself. Granted he had a family in England, but the family knows nothing at all of it's descendants, and the only one that would have had any inkling, my great grandmother, she passed in 2003. Surviving family just has long-forgotten memories of words and hear say so all this is new, including the research, for myself.
Yes, there's another thread, that is in the 'Durham' forum for the family as a whole, I put this in the 'Europe' forum specifically for the gentleman in question, in order to cast the net further afield and not have it specific to one town/city so to speak...
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The name of the region where Henry was born was Hessen-Darmstadt, which covered a considerable part of the modern German state of Hessen (Hesse).
I found Henry with Jane and a young son William in the 1871 census (see https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZF-L9Q (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZF-L9Q)). The transcribed birthplace (Drakethain) is Germanic-ish, but I wanted to see the original image.
On ancestry, you can find the same census record by searching for Henry Wardman (another classic ancestry transcription). The place name is, unfortunately, unclear. It definitely begins with D, and ends in ...shain, I think, not thain, but I can't make out the letters in between with any certainty. I'm going to search through the German gazetteers.
Justin
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Here's a link to the 1871 census on ancestry https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qcn/ (https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qcn/)
Here's a link to a map showing the historical development of Hessen-Darmstadt
https://www.lagis-hessen.de/de/subjects/gsrec/current/1/sn/ga?q=hessen-darmstadt (https://www.lagis-hessen.de/de/subjects/gsrec/current/1/sn/ga?q=hessen-darmstadt)
Are you aware that there were a couple of other Kirchmann (later Churchman) families of German origin in Middlesbrough in the 19th century?
Elisabeth Kirchmann born around 1806 in Hessen-Darmstadt was recorded with son Ludwig (later Louis Churchman), aged 22, and daughter Elisabeth, aged 16, in the 1861 census. She was recorded in 1871 as Elisabeth Churchman with married daughter, Elisabeth Moore, whose husband Henry also came from Hessen-Darmstadt.
She appears to have been married to a Caspar Kirchmann, who may have been the Casper Churchman, whose death was record in Stockton in Q1 1860.
There was also an older Ludwig (Ludwick) Churchman (aka Louis Kirchmann) born about 1815 in Hessen. In 1871, he was recorded with his wife Mary in Linthorpe, Middlesbrough.
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Here's a link to the 1871 census on ancestry https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qcn/ (https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qcn/)
Here's a link to a map showing the historical development of Hessen-Darmstadt
https://www.lagis-hessen.de/de/subjects/gsrec/current/1/sn/ga?q=hessen-darmstadt (https://www.lagis-hessen.de/de/subjects/gsrec/current/1/sn/ga?q=hessen-darmstadt)
Are you aware that there were a couple of other Kirchmann (later Churchman) families of German origin in Middlesbrough in the 19th century?
Elisabeth Kirchmann born around 1806 in Hessen-Darmstadt was recorded with son Ludwig (later Louis Churchman), aged 22, and daughter Elisabeth, aged 16, in the 1861 census. She was recorded in 1871 as Elisabeth Churchman with married daughter, Elisabeth Moore, whose husband Henry also came from Hessen-Darmstadt.
She appears to have been married to a Caspar Kirchmann, who may have been the Casper Churchman, whose death was record in Stockton in Q1 1860.
There was also an older Ludwig (Ludwick) Churchman (aka Louis Kirchmann) born about 1815 in Hessen. In 1871, he was recorded with his wife Mary in Linthorpe, Middlesbrough.
Thanks for the nudge on this JustinL, appreciated.
I dip in and out of the site due to trying to rebuild work-life, and ongoing health issues. The German connection is something that interests though as well...
Thanks again...
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Peter,
I haven’t got any real answers yet, but I do have 2 things that might need some further thought ...
#1
I found Henry with Jane and a young son William in the 1871 census (see https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZF-L9Q (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZF-L9Q)). The transcribed birthplace (Drakethain) is Germanic-ish, but I wanted to see the original image.
On the same page is the word “Durham” and this “D’ looks very different. Is it possible that Henry’s Birth Place could be (a bad version of) “Hackenheim” instead (or maybe some other town name)? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackenheim for more background.
#2
Where did you find that the German version of Henry Churchman’s name is "Kirchmann"? Or, did you assume that he would have literally translated it? If that is the case, I would not rule out names like Curschman, Klostermann, Christmann etc etc.
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Peter,
I haven’t got any real answers yet, but I do have 2 things that might need some further thought ...
#1
I found Henry with Jane and a young son William in the 1871 census (see https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZF-L9Q (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZF-L9Q)). The transcribed birthplace (Drakethain) is Germanic-ish, but I wanted to see the original image.
On the same page is the word “Durham” and this “D’ looks very different. Is it possible that Henry’s Birth Place could be (a bad version of) “Hackenheim” instead (or maybe some other town name)? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackenheim for more background.
#2
Where did you find that the German version of Henry Churchman’s name is "Kirchmann"? Or, did you assume that he would have literally translated it? If that is the case, I would not rule out names like Curschman, Klostermann, Christmann etc etc.
In answer to your second point, we had an idea already that the name was Kirchmann, or similar to that, through family conversations down the years. unfortunately my great grandmother passed years ago, and it gets forgotten over time. Research that has been done, at present, connects the dots so to speak...
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That's a great suggestion, and Hackenheim was, indeed, just inside the borders of the Grand Duchy of Hessen (see map here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Grossherzogtum_Hessen_1832-1850_Karte_20.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Grossherzogtum_Hessen_1832-1850_Karte_20.jpg)). Interestingly, it isn't even listed in the Historical Gazetteer of Hessen.
However, although I agree that the "D" in Durham is very different; what about the "Ds" in "Dress Maker" and in "Engine Driver"? Moreover, there are a couple of examples of a capital "H" on the page (e.g. Hessen), and they don't resemble a "D".
Nevertheless, the page we can view now, is a transcript of the original enumeration forms filled out by the household heads. I have seen many 19th century hand-written documents in German, and some letters can be difficult to distinguish, but not "D" and "H".
Can we post more of the census page to the Handwriting Deciphering board, without infringing the copyright?
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I admit that Hackenheim is far from perfect, but it seemed to be the best option for a place in Essen (and I had tried quite a few wildcarded variations) ...LOL.
BTW The "Darmstädter Hof" mentioned in the wiki page could (more or less) work with Henry's POB on the 1881 census.
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That's a great suggestion, and Hackenheim was, indeed, just inside the borders of the Grand Duchy of Hessen (see map here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Grossherzogtum_Hessen_1832-1850_Karte_20.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Grossherzogtum_Hessen_1832-1850_Karte_20.jpg)). Interestingly, it isn't even listed in the Historical Gazetteer of Hessen.
However, although I agree that the "D" in Durham is very different; what about the "Ds" in "Dress Maker" and in "Engine Driver"? Moreover, there are a couple of examples of a capital "H" on the page (e.g. Hessen), and they don't resemble a "D".
Nevertheless, the page we can view now, is a transcript of the original enumeration forms filled out by the household heads. I have seen many 19th century hand-written documents in German, and some letters can be difficult to distinguish, but not "D" and "H".
Can we post more of the census page to the Handwriting Deciphering board, without infringing the copyright?
Justin, that map is pretty cool mate, love it...
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I wondered if you knew about this website.. I found the gedcom = GEDBAS page very useful for researching German connections. As well as searching just for a surname of just for a given name, you can even search by town name and every surname entered by an am.researcher who has an ancestor in that town is shown in the results.
http://www.genealogienetz.de/index_en.html
I realise things have changed since I started and finished my German research, which I did by looking in my local telephone directory to see if there was a "Church of Latter Day Saints" in the area (allied to familysearch) . A phone call to ask if they could provide a micro-fiche of the parish church I was interested in and would they order a copy for me at a (then) cost of £2.50. The earliest census was end of the year 1851 and called a "building and people count" , Some parish clergymen only gave the number of people living in his parish, others listed names of well to do people plus the number of "others". Later end of year "counts" were far more detailed and helpfully giving religions, which saved money when approaching churches and or church archives for family records.
The Ev. Lutheran churches in the UK give far more detail than the usual parish records. I was lucky and found my grandmother's baptism in Hull, Yorkshire, which listed that she had been named in favour of her German grandmother Sophie Ehlers in Saltzgitter - How exciting was that do you think !!!
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be many historical Lutheran records remaining, I think the chief Lutheran church is in Liverpool which could give more information:
"The German congregation in Hull also started its existence as part of the Anglican Church. Founded in 1844 by the Bishop of Hull, it was not until four years later that it became Lutheran in Faith and Practice. Other German congregations established in this period are Manchester (1853), Bradford (1876), London-Sydenham (1875), South Shields (1879), Newcastle (1890), and Middlesbrough (1897).
https://helmut-hild-haus.de/english/archives.html
I was lucky and found my ancester was amongst a handful of Yorkshire Police Archive records of "Alien Registration". It showed he had arrived with a musician uncle when he was 10 years one day old. Although his three sons were on active duty in the Army WWII and he was married to an English woman, he still had to report to the local police station each day during WWI and also WWII until his death aged 86 in 1942. He obviously suffered from dementia as the final police report stated he couldn't recall the name of his mother (who my own grandmother was named after).
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Perhaps an anglicized version of Dreieichenhain approx 25km NE of Darmstadt?
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Hi Peter78
Kaspar Kirschmann was my great great grandfather, his son Louis was my great grandfather. I was born in Middlesbrough, my maiden name was Churchman
I’ve been trying to find more about my German ancestry for many years. I have some information but not a lot.
My friend found this for me as I’ve not been on this site before.
Vanessa
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Just to add on the Kirchmann family tree that I was given. The surname is written with an s - so literal translation cherryman. Maybe someone misheard or misspelled it. At first it didn’t seem odd as my German friend’s married name is Kirsch.
Hoping my posts are seen by the person who started this thread