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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: M_ONeill on Thursday 25 February 21 01:13 GMT (UK)
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(Note: this question is an offshoot of a more general research thread in the Derry subforum here (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=831229.18))
So I've found the 1884 will of one James O'Neill, a possible sibling of my 3x great grandmother Ellen. One peculiar thing I discovered is that every time his name appears in the will it is written out as 'James O'Neill (Henry)' - see attachment below.
I've not come across this before and I was wondering if anyone else had seen something similar. Is there some standard meaning for this in wills of the time? Is it a middle name? An indication of a link to the Henry family (of which there were many in the local area)?
I'd be very interested to hear if anyone has any experience with this sort of thing in Irish family history!
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Is he the son of Henry, to perhaps distinguish him from another James in the extended family.
Or maybe, in everyday life, he is just referred to as Henry rather than James.
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If he was a Catholic, could one name be the name he was baptised with and the other name could be the name he was given at his confirmation?
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We're not sure on James' parents as he was born c1813 and the records are sparse, but the current theory is that he may be the son of James O'Neill and Esther Downing - based mainly on his very close relationships with cousins in the Downing family, nephews of Esther.
I have only just started looking into potential Henry connections, but there *may* be a connection between local Henry families and the Downings - maybe even with the O'Neills.
Edit: Just saw your response Rena - I suppose it's possible, but I haven't seen confirmation names used on Wills, has anyone else ever come across something similar?
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It is not a surname. In Ireland an appended name like that usually denotes the father's Christian name - so as to avoid ambiguity. This was a system frequently employed in Irish records, so there is little reason to suppose it is different in this case.
An alias, by contrast, would be so characterized, while the concept of it denoting a local Henry family makes little sense to me.
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That's interesting, Wexflyer - if true, that would run counter to our current theory of James being the son of James O'Neill and Esther Downing and we may have to think again. I still suspect he is somehow related to that family though - he is very clearly linked with a number of families using a very distinctive 'Stafford' naming pattern in Dreenan
I've yet to pinpoint the particular Rose Mallon he is referring to, that might help me narrow his relations down a little more.
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That's interesting, Wexflyer - if true, that would run counter to our current theory of James being the son of James O'Neill and Esther Downing and we may have to think again. I still suspect he is somehow related to that family though - he is very clearly linked with a number of families using a very distinctive 'Stafford' naming pattern in Dreenan
I've yet to pinpoint the particular Rose Mallon he is referring to, that might help me narrow his relations down a little more.
It is true. You can see it regularly in Griffith's valuation, and the associated later Valuation Office records.
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That's interesting, Wexflyer - if true, that would run counter to our current theory of James being the son of James O'Neill and Esther Downing and we may have to think again.
The question I would have in my mind is who they are trying to distinguish this James O'Neill from? Perhaps the James O'Neill you are interested in, or....? Whoever this fellow was, there must have been another man of the same name in the same area, or there would be no need for this.
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So I took a quick look at the Dreenan griffiths revision books for 1884 the year of James' death. There is a James listed as renting two acres, house and office from John Downing (John) in '84.
This land transfers to a 'widow O'Neill', with the change being made in '91 - a little bit late for the update of the land passing to Hannah, but I suppose if James died just after one revision the change may not have come in until after the next. This James does not have (Henry) appended and there are no other James O'Neills in the immediate townland.
However, there is a John O'Neill (Henry) sharing 41 acres with a number of Neill (not O'Neill) occupants. Another O'Neill (possibly 'Helen O'Neill (John)') takes over a portion of the land from John Neill (Felix) in 1890.
There is also a Henry O'Neill sharing land with a William Downing elsewhere in the townland.
Interestingly with regards to the will, the immediate neighbours of John O'neill (Henry) are a Henry family. One of the occupants is Hugh Henry, who may be one of the signed witnesses to James' will. There is also a Henry Henry present, who based on later censuses is likely Hugh's brother.
So it's a very complex, but very interesting picture. It actually seems to corroborate the idea that James O'Neill had a connection with the Downings, as well as a possible connection with the Henry's (even if only as close neighbours).
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Perhaps I should add the following. I have seen examples of all of the following methods used to distinguish people of the same name in Irish records:
Joe (John), versus Joe (James) - Using father's Christian name
Joe (Of the road), versus Joe (Of the fields) - Using location within same townland
Joe (Other townland name), versus Joe - Using location in different townland.
Joe (Blacksmith), versus Joe (Carpenter) - Using occupation
Joe Sen, versus Joe Jr - Using family relationship, or age
Joe (Red), versus Joe (Black) - Using hair color.
By contrast, I have never seen a surname used as a distinction.
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My thinking was more along the lines of a familial branch being identified by a name possibly taken from a matrilineal line. I thought it a possibility as there is a very strong local tradition of taking such a name and using it as a first or middle name (almost all of the families branching from the Dreenan Downings can be identified through their use of 'Stafford' as a first or middle name for their children, for example). I was even wondering if 'Henry Henry' was some strange application of this tradition.
However, seeing the prevalence of the appended names in the local valuation records, I don't think my idea is the likeliest explanation.
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However, seeing the prevalence of the appended names in the local valuation records, I don't think my idea is the likeliest explanation.
If I may say so myself, the examples of valuation records that you quoted appear to strongly support my contention.
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If I may say so myself, the valuation record examples you quoted seem to strongly support my contention.
That's what I meant. Forgive me, a slightly poorly worded response on my part! :)
If James' father was indeed Henry, then I need to do some rethinking on this part of the tree...
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May I just say that I agree with Wexflyer and that is what I meant.
We have examples similar to his:
Tom (Pat) ....
Pat (Roger) ...
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Came across an interesting one of these in the Griffiths Valuation revisions for Rossgarran (sometimes written Rosegarland or Rosegarran).
There's a John Walls who always appears written as John Walls (Yankee). Now the obvious inference would be something to do with America, but I have no idea what it might be. The man in question seems to have been born sometime c1815 based on his 1898 death record.
His will survives, but sadly leaves no clue as to what link he may have had with America. He first seems to appear in the Griffiths Valuations in the 1870s, with children born in Rossgarran as early as 1864. His wife was a Mary Milligan (sometimes Milliken).
Any thoughts on this curious nickname? An American immigrant who had returned to the old ancestral townland? Rossgarran does seem to have a long history of Walls families.
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Came across an interesting one of these in the Griffiths Valuation revisions for Rossgarran (sometimes written Rosegarland or Rosegarran).
There's a John Walls who always appears written as John Walls (Yankee). Now the obvious inference would be something to do with America, but I have no idea what it might be. The man in question seems to have been born sometime c1815 based on his 1898 death record.
His will survives, but sadly leaves no clue as to what link he may have had with America. He first seems to appear in the Griffiths Valuations in the 1870s, with children born in Rossgarran as early as 1864. His wife was a Mary Milligan (sometimes Milliken).
Any thoughts on this curious nickname? An American immigrant who had returned to the old ancestral townland? Rossgarran does seem to have a long history of Walls families.
I did research on a family in Co Antrim where a man and his young wife emigrated to Pittsburgh. The wife gave birth there but died a few weeks later. The young son was sent back to Antrim to be looked after by his grandparents. He lived in the US for about 4 months and then spent the next 70 years in Antrim. He was known as “Yankee” all his life, in reference to his short stay in the US. Yankee is on his gravestone. So a nickname.
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That's fascinating, Elwyn, and largely coincides with what I'm thinking about John Walls.
Can I ask roughly when your story takes place? When it comes to travel to and from America, I'm more used to seeing examples from later eras (late 19th, early 20th century, mostly) - for someone born c1815 and only reappearing on the scene in the 1860s, it's obviously a much earlier case!
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James “Yankee” Fawcett was born in 1891 in Allegheny (now Pittsburgh). He died in Belfast in 1958 and is buried in the Green Garden (a Quaker Graveyard) in Milltown, near Toome. I can send you a photo of the grave with “Yankee” on it. I tried attaching it to this post but it won’t work. If you want to see it, send me a pm with your e-mail address.