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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: iwccc on Friday 26 February 21 10:50 GMT (UK)
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I have been told that Roy Baldwin was born in NZ and also married there . He is a real mystery - have not found him on births, intentions to marry, inoculations or wedding records. More research and I have found a R. Baldwin in NZ police Gazettes - numerous times. How do I find out if R. Baldwin is Roy Baldwin?
In the Gazettes he is often identified as being 'identical with John Crosbie Home" and R Hensley identical with John Crosbie Home" "C. Rolston is also identical with John Crosbie Home" as is "R/H. Harvey". "R. Hensley may be identical with R. Baldwin." these are all around 1942.
If R. Baldwin is my Roy Baldwin then he has had many alias names. How can I find out if it is Roy ? Can anyone explain the terminology 'he may be identical with". - is it just how it sounds ? Roy is supposedly married to Irene (or Ivy) May Hewett in NZ. Any help would be much appreciated - This Roy is hard to track down. Thank you
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Any idea what "John Crosbie Home" means - was it a place ???
Any clue as to ages in these reports?
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Plenty of hits on PapersPast for John Crosbie Home's court appearances in the period 1933 to 1944, he appears to have been a busy man with 76 convictions by 1944. Based on his stated age in several of the newspaper reports, 29 in 1934, and 38 in 1943, he was born around 1905. Does this date of birth fit with what you know about your Roy Baldwin?
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Hi,
What do you know about his background? Approximately when & where born? Parents/ Siblings?
Perhaps Roy was a nickname? More information if possible, please..... :)
Minniehaha.
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he was born around 1905. Does this date of birth fit with what you know about your Roy Baldwin?
School Records for John Crosbie Home gives a birth year of 15 Aug 1905 and attended Timaru Main.
Cheers
KHP
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There is this birth on NZ BDM's
Registration Number Family Name Given Name(s) Mother's Given Name(s) Father's Given
Name(s)
1915/23161 Baldwin Roy William Sidney to Catherine Isabel and Sidney James
Cheers Janette
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May not be your man
"APPREHENSIONS, PERSONS FOUND, ETC.
NEW ZEALAND POLICE GAZETTE, VOLUME LXII, ISSUE 40, 13 OCTOBER 1937, PAGE 704
Wanganui.— J. C. Home, alias Sammy Home, theft, lias been arrested by the Wanganui police, and admits the offence. His correct name is John Crosbie Home, and he is referred to in Police Gazette, 1936, page 251. (See Police Gazette, 1937, page 644.)"
Cheers Janette
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Also this entry names a child
"PERSONS WANTED.
NEW ZEALAND POLICE GAZETTE, VOLUME LXV, ISSUE 28, 10 JULY 1940, PAGE 557
Wellington. —6th ultimo, on warrant of commitment to Wellington Prison for two months in default of paying £24 17s. 6d. arrears on a maintenance order for the support of John William Craig Home, in the care of the Education Department, John Crosbie Home, referred to in Police Gazette, 1940, page 538, and Photographs, 1933, page 5. He may be released on payment of £lO."
Cheers Janette
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A death for the child
1947/31497 Home John William Craig 15Y
Cheers Janette
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This could be the child Janette refers to:
Ruru Cemetery - Christchurch
Name :HOME John W C
Area : 43
Plot : 136
Headstone
John W.C. 1932-1947. Son of Rick and Ethel BAXTER.
[ Ethel BAXTER bur. 27 September 1965 ]
Cheers
KHP
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A divorce on the grounds of desertion the wife is named as Ethyl Margaret Home
This fits with the mother named on the above cemetery that KHP has posted
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19410314.2.51?items_per_page=50&phrase=2&query=john+crosbie+home&snippet=true&sort_by=byDA
Cheers Janette
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Photo of John Crosbie HOME - NZ Police Gazette - 1933
Can you identify him from this ??
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE26744377
Added : Sorry, that link cuts out. See side bar of page - scroll to Photographs and page 5 .
~ Lu
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There is this death:
Record for John Crosley Home
Date of birth: Unknown
Occupation : Rtd Painter
Date of death : 10 February 1972
Age at death : 67 years
Gender : Male
Region : West
Cemetery name : Waikumete Cemetery
Plot location :
Waikumete Cemetery, Eucalyptus Glade, Row Sc - Ash, Plot 0
Remains type : Ash
Date of cremation : 15 February 1972
Date of burial : 10 February 1972
Funeral director :
Davis Funeral Services Ltd
https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/cemeteries/Pages/find-burial-cremation.aspx
Cheers
KHP
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Further to reply # 10......
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=20360284
1928/9001 Ethyl Margaret Craig John Crosbie Home
No later marriage found.
Minniehaha.
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Deleted ... seems not to apply after all. (Removed link to Australian thread which only touched very briefly on surname interest and would not have assisted search here.) :)
~ Lu
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Mmm ... thought names sounded familiar. ;D
An earlier thread.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=650407.msg4997062#msg4997062
~ Lu
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Oooooooh a trip down memory lane, but if you go to Reply#45, there is another link.
Cheers
KHP
Edited: Chasing our tails around me thinks with this one ;D
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Further to reply #12
Death
1972/24140 Home John Crosby 67Y
Cheers Janette
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Just wondering, if we should have all the links related to this, posted on here.
They would be easier to find in future for anyone coming across it.
Cheers
KHP
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Roy BALDWIN - another AUS thread >
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,644094.0.html
Haven't read (or re-read should I say), this ... it may or may not give further "clues".
~ Lu
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This could be the child Janette refers to:
Ruru Cemetery - Christchurch
Name :HOME John W C
Area : 43
Plot : 136
Headstone
John W.C. 1932-1947. Son of Rick and Ethel BAXTER.
[ Ethel BAXTER bur. 27 September 1965 ]
Cheers
KHP
Entered in the cemetery database as Baxter
https://heritage.christchurchcitylibraries.com/Cemeteries/interment.asp?id=57661
Cheers Janette
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IWCC,
it would make it easier for those helping if you had referred to your many previous threads. :) :)
It saves folk going over the same ground twice :)
Cheers Janette
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It certainly does help Janette, like Lu, I thought the name sounded familiar.
Cheers
KHP
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So, if I have read right, there is no connection at all to John Crosbie Home? A different person altogether?
Cheers
KHP
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Roy BALDWIN - another AUS thread >
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,644094.0.html
After a speed-read of above thread, I see at Reply # 29, iwccc (author) has stated now having found Roy BALDWIN's birthplace at Adamstown (NSW ?).
Added --> ^ this post was dated 19 April 2013 :
There follows numerous posts re: Irene May/Ivy HEWETT ... and later in thread a granddaughter reports that the info for Roy BALDWIN (his marriage in NZ etc.) comes from the certificate of his son's birth. A marriage record in New Zealand has not been found.
Somehow I think "R. BALDWIN" (in NZ Police Gazette) and Roy BALDWIN in Australia are not connected ???
~ Lu
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.. oops KHP ... I just "over-rode" your incoming post. ;D
Yip, I think we are on the "same page" in speculating that John Crosbie HOME (although he may have used the alias "R. BALDWIN), he is not, Roy BALDWIN from Australia. [Hope I got that right ? ] ;)
~ Lu
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.. oops KHP ... I just "over-rode" your incoming post. ;D
Yip, I think we are on the "same page" in speculating that John Crosbie HOME (although he may have used the alias "R. BALDWIN), he is not, Roy BALDWIN from Australia. [Hope I got that right ? ] ;)
~ Lu
You did :D
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Roy BALDWIN - another AUS thread >
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,644094.0.html
After a speed-read of above thread, I see at Reply # 29, iwccc (author) has stated now having found Roy BALDWIN's birthplace at Adamstown (NSW ?),
There follows numerous posts re: Irene May/Ivy HEWETT ... and later in thread a granddaughter reports that the info for Roy BALDWIN (his marriage in NZ etc.) comes from the certificate of his son's birth. A marriage record in New Zealand has not been found.
Somehow I think "R. BALDWIN" (in NZ Police Gazette) and Roy BALDWIN in Australia are not connected ???
~ Lu
A digression, I don’t see how the certificate for the sons birth in 1924 can have details of a marriage in 1931
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[for KHP] ;D Good.
Should just add, that I can see perhaps why iwccc (author of this thread), was following up on this
"R. BALDWIN".
Similarity in name R.BALDWIN (Roy BALDWIN)
... Roy BALDWIN marriage to Ivy or Irene HEWETT which according to info on his son's birth certificate, apparently took place in Napier, NZ
... and some of the crime reports for John Crosbie HOME, alias
"R. BALDWIN" mentioned that the Police at Napier were involved.
~ Lu
Edited for clarity.
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A digression, I don’t see how the certificate for the sons birth in 1924 can have details of a marriage in 1931
You've lost me Mckha .... who suggested that ?? ;D
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A digression, I don’t see how the certificate for the sons birth in 1924 can have details of a marriage in 1931
You've lost me Mckha .... who suggested that ?? ;D
It’s on that other thread. Out in the garden with chainsaw now so can’t tell you post number.
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Hello Milliepede, John Crosbie Home is a persons name. It would appear that he (or maybe R.Baldwin ) went under various alias names. See my first listing where it states that the various people were 'identical to......). Thank you
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Hello CraigM63, Thanks for the reply. My understanding is that Roy Baldwin was born on the 1st January, 1906 - so the ages are close. In one Police Gazette of 1942 its says "Palmerston North - R. Baldwin, theft has been interviewed by the Napier Police and he admitted the offence. He is identical with John Crosbie Home referred to above( See Police Gazette 1942 page 426)". The family organ history says he (Roy Baldwin) was married in Napier NZ so you can see why I am trying to find out if R. Baldwin is the same man as Roy Baldwin -OR did someone called John Crosbie Home just have numbers alias names - one being R. Baldwin??? Thanks for help
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A digression, I don’t see how the certificate for the sons birth in 1924 can have details of a marriage in 1931
You've lost me Mckha .... who suggested that ?? ;D
It’s on that other thread. Out in the garden with chainsaw now so can’t tell you post number.
Reply #36 other thread
in reply to posts about Neville R.J. BALDWIN...HIS PARENTS WERE ROY BALDWIN & IVY MAY HEWETT,,,NEVILLE WAS BORN IN 1924 @ MERRIWA NSW AND DIED IN 1986 @ GUNNEDAH NSW...ROY WAS BORN @ NAPIER NZ AND HE MARRIED IVY @ NAPIER NZ....THEY HAD 3 CHILDREN 1 UNNAMED MALE...IRENE & NEVILLE...NEVILLE MARRIED SYLVIA E. SMITH @ WARATAH NSW IN 1943 THEY HAD 9 CHILDREN.....IVY REMARRIED WALTER ERIC ALLWOOD IN1927...HOPE THIS HELPS SOMEONE....ROY & IVY'S INFORMATION IS ACCORDING TO NEVILLE'S BIRTHCERTIFICATE.
Reply #29
What I can't seem to find is who Roy married? I was led to believe it was Ivy May Hewett (from Coonamble) and that they married in Napier N.Z. 1931
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A digression, I don’t see how the certificate for the sons birth in 1924 can have details of a marriage in 1931
You've lost me Mckha .... who suggested that ?? ;D
It’s on that other thread. Out in the garden with chainsaw now so can’t tell you post number.
Well, I never "argue" with fellas with a chainsaw in hand. ;D
So I'll take your word for it.
[Recall there was mention of a 1931 marriage to someone other than Roy ?? And did notice some other anomalies with dates - was past nitpicking with those - more important I think just to be able to discount the "R. BALDWIN" in NZ Police Gazettes.]
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Marriage: ??
1931/2133 Ivy Hewitt Roy Clark Ewart
[Also in one of the other threads]
Minniehaha.
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Marriage: ??
1931/2133 Ivy Hewitt Roy Clark Ewart
[Also in one of the other threads]
Minniehaha.
No, this is not the Ivy HEWITT or HEWETT ... and Roy being sought.
Have no idea whether that marriage took place in Napier, but all other "findings" for them in New Zealand, rule them out of the HEWETT / BALDWIN search.
And just for good measure ... and for iwccc's info, I am adding a link to NZ probate record for the Roy Ewart concerned.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=8442010&digital=yes
~ Lu
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Marriage: ??
1931/2133 Ivy Hewitt Roy Clark Ewart
[Also in one of the other threads]
Minniehaha.
No, this is not the Ivy HEWITT or HEWETT ... and Roy being sought.
Have no idea whether that marriage took place in Napier, but all other "findings" for them in New Zealand, rule them out of the HEWETT / BALDWIN search.
And just for good measure ... and for iwccc's info, I am adding a link to NZ probate record for the Roy Ewart concerned.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=8442010&digital=yes
~ Lu
Well, that is loud and very clear!
Minniehaha.
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Hello Minniehaha, The details I have about Roy Baldwin is as follows:
Siblings: Alice b. 1904 Weston, NSW, Roy b.1st Jan 1906 (not sure where born maybe Weston or Napier NZ), Clara b. 1909 at Weston, Frances b. 1911. Kurri Kurri, Sydney (Syd) b. 1915, Henry b 1924 at Adamastown.
I believe his father was Albert Baldwin b. 1879 and mother was Mary Jane Pilkington b.1877. These parents were married on 31st Dec. 1902.
Thank you for your help
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Hello Kiwihalfpint, Thanks for the information about John Crosbie Home - it appears he is a 'real' person but this does not explain why R. Baldwin was considered to be identical with him. Also there is a lot of different names (see my previous list) that says they were identical to John Crosbie Home or R. Baldwin.
I am really trying to find out about a Roy Baldwin.
Thanks for your help
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Hello Janette, Thanks for all the look-ups. These are for John Crosbie Home - the person I am researching is Roy Baldwin (R. Baldwin has been recorded as being 'identical with John Crosbie Home'.)
Roy Baldwin has proven to be most elusive. I have posted today other details of his family but I am wanting to find out where he was born (Weston NSW or Napier N.Z. or ?. I also need to find out when, where and if he married Irene (Ivy) May Hewett.
Thanks for your help
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Hello Janette, Thanks for all the look-ups. These are for John Crosbie Home - the person I am researching is Roy Baldwin (R. Baldwin has been recorded as being 'identical with John Crosbie Home'.)
Hi IWCCC ,Yes I know you are looking for Roy Baldwin.I posted those details as I think it shows that J C Home is NOT your Roy Baldwin.
Cheers Janette
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School Records for John Crosbie Home gives a birth year of 15 Aug 1905 and attended Timaru Main.
So just to muddy the waters a little bit more, a quick search of BM & D Online doesn't produce the birth of a John Crosby Home in New Zealand in 1905. In fact there are only 10 Home births registered in New Zealand between 1900 and 1910, none of which stand out. So he was either born under another name, or born elsewhere.
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So just to muddy the waters a little bit more, a quick search of BM & D Online doesn't produce the birth of a John Crosby Home in New Zealand in 1905. In fact there are only 10 Home births registered in New Zealand between 1900 and 1910, none of which stand out. So he was either born under another name, or born elsewhere.
From Ancestry:
Name: John Crosbie Home
Birth Date: Oct-Nov-Dec 1905
Registration Place: Wellington, Wellington, New Zealand
Folio Number: 4912
Cheers
KHP
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Re: Reply # 42
There are trees for the Home family:
Give the place of birth as Wellington, 1905 (Oct) and gives the parent's names as:
John (Jack) Robertson Home - born NZ
Catherine Grimmond Robertson - born Scotland
Cheers
KHP
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Hello Minniehaha, The details I have about Roy Baldwin is as follows:
Siblings: Alice b. 1904 Weston, NSW, Roy b.1st Jan 1906 (not sure where born maybe Weston or Napier NZ), Clara b. 1909 at Weston, Frances b. 1911. Kurri Kurri, Sydney (Syd) b. 1915, Henry b 1924 at Adamastown.
I believe his father was Albert Baldwin b. 1879 and mother was Mary Jane Pilkington b.1877. These parents were married on 31st Dec. 1902.
Thank you for your help
NSW - BDM
Birth
BALDWIN - Roy
615/1906
Father: Albert
Mother: Mary J.
Registration District: Adamstown, NSW
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Thanks Lucy2, This is a good confirmation. All I need to track down now is when and if he married in NZ. Appreciate your help
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Hello MinnieHaHa, thanks for your ideas. Looking at the Will I'm sure that this is not my man. I don't recognise any beneficiaries etc. I appreciate your help in this puzzling search. I am beginning to think that maybe they did not marry as I cannot find any reference - so far ! Will keep searching. thanks again
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Hello iwccc
Is this the child (born 1924) of Ivy (Irene) HEWETT and Roy BALDWIN ???
NSW - BDM
Death
108845 / 1986
BALDWIN - Neville Ronald James
Father : Thomas Royce ???
Mother : Ivy
Registration District : Not shown on index
~ Lu
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Of course Roy could be a short form of Royce. Looks promising! If his full name is Thomas Royce this may help open a few genealogical doors?
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Hello Lucy2, Great detective work! Thank you. The family has the name 'Royce' running through it so this looks like it is something worth following up. It would seem that his birth is listed as 'Roy Baldwin' whereas when (and if?) he married Irene (Ivy) May Hewett and had a son called Neville Ronald James that now we see Neville's father listed as 'Thomas Royce'.
This man is a real mystery!
Neville had a sister also'Irene'. Could I please ask what site you went through to find BMD NSW for this information. I can never seem to find it. Once again, many thanks - I'm not there yet but well on the way to solving this - I think!
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Hi shanreagh, Yep - looks like another really good lead. 'Royce' certainly continues on as a name in the family. I am always amazed at how one small piece of information leads to another, to another and eventually you have answers. Thanks for your encouragement.
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Hi iwccc
Do you happen to know the birth year of Irene, the daughter of Ivy (Irene) BALDWIN.
Did she marry a "CAREY" ??
~ Lu
Edited : Deleted original question to replace with above.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=644094.0 An earlier thread on the Australia Board including the Adamstown birth registration
Roy BALDWIN
BIRTH
615/1906 FATHER ALBERT, MOTHER MARY J, AT ADAMSTOWN NEWCASTLE
MARRIAGE
12458/1932 ROY BALDWIN TO ELIZABETH S COLQUHOUN AT HAMILTON NEWCASTLE
Cannot find a death ???
Neil
Oops, duplicating Roy BALDWIN - another AUS thread >
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,644094.0.html
Haven't read (or re-read should I say), this ... it may or may not give further "clues".
~ Lu
Hello Minniehaha, The details I have about Roy Baldwin is as follows:
Siblings: Alice b. 1904 Weston, NSW, Roy b.1st Jan 1906 (not sure where born maybe Weston or Napier NZ), Clara b. 1909 at Weston, Frances b. 1911. Kurri Kurri, Sydney (Syd) b. 1915, Henry b 1924 at Adamastown.
I believe his father was Albert Baldwin b. 1879 and mother was Mary Jane Pilkington b.1877. These parents were married on 31st Dec. 1902.
Thank you for your help
NSW - BDM
Birth
BALDWIN - Roy
615/1906
Father: Albert
Mother: Mary J.
Registration District: Adamstown, NSW
My apologies.
ADD,
iwccc, please can you let us all know what is the information from that 1906 NSW BDM ...
JM
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Hi again iwccc ... sorry I had only seen your reply to shanreagh (missed the one you'd addressed to me). ;D
Now the last thing I want to do, is to put a dampener on this death record for Neville R.J. BALDWIN.
But we always advise "caution" when it comes to information found in death records ... largely because it is not the deceased person who is giving the info to the registry, but a relative, friend or some other person, who may not be in possession of "strictly correct" details. [That is not to say though that the details are not correct ... but it's just something to always bear in mind in this "genealogy game". ]
And there's no harm at all, in following through with a search for "Thomas Royce". :)
It's really NOT great detective work (on my part) ... I just happened to be looking ta the NSW BMD site.
Here's the link for you >>
https://www.nsw.gov.au/topics/family-history-search
That link takes you directly to the "family history section" . Click on "Search your Ancestry" and it will take you to the page to search Births, Marriages and Deaths.
Remember though, that Births only go up to a certain year ... so 1924 is not included yet.
~ Lu
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Lucy2, Yes - Irene was born 1923 and died 1957. She married Noel Graham Carey in 1940 at Mayfield. thank you
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=644094.0 An earlier thread on the Australia Board including the Adamstown birth registration
Roy BALDWIN
BIRTH
615/1906 FATHER ALBERT, MOTHER MARY J, AT ADAMSTOWN NEWCASTLE
MARRIAGE
12458/1932 ROY BALDWIN TO ELIZABETH S COLQUHOUN AT HAMILTON NEWCASTLE
Cannot find a death ???
Neil
......
ADD,
iwccc, please can you let us all know what is the information from that 1906 NSW BDM ...
JM
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Thanks iwccc for info re: Irene CAREY. :)
~ Lu
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Re the 1932 marriage in NSW for a Roy BALDWIN and Elizabeth COLQUHOUN as noted by Neil Todd back in 2013 ...
NSW Electoral roll 1949 SHORTLAND, polling Lambton:
Elizabeth Scott BALDWIN, 6 Mowbray Crescent, Adamstown, home duties.
Roy BALDWIN, 6 Mowbray Crescent, Adamstown, breadcarter.
Many others with same surname at that polling place, but not at same street address.
I have NOT found Irene or Ivy BALDWIN on electoral rolls in NSW with Roy or Thomas Royce BALDWIN... cannot find Thomas Royce BALDWIN at all on any NSW electoral roll.
JM
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So, Roy and Elizabeth BALDWIN are on NSW electoral rolls at same address as each other in Newcastle region:
1933, 1934, 1935, 1936, 1937, 1943, 1949, 1958, 1963, 1972, 1977, 1980. Roy always as a breadcarter.
JM
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So before marrying Elizabeth COLQUHOUN in 1932 and showing up on the electoral rolls from 1933 to 1980 together (a) Roy Baldwin married or at least had a child with Ivy (Irene) Hewett in 1924.
If this Roy Baldwin who fathered Neville Ronald James Baldwin is the same as the one born in Adamstown Newcastle in 1906 then he would have been about 18 years old. Certainly old enough to father a child but did he marry Ivy? If he did marry would his parent have had to agree to this as he would not have been of age?
If he did marry, then as someone has said he must/may have got a divorce before marrying in 1932.
What does the marriage certificate say? Has this been obtained?
What date was NRJ Baldwin born in 1920's What does the birth certificate say about parents?
R Baldwin may have left Ivy after a couple of years.
Have the divorce papers been sighted?
Were divorces reported as in NZ so has Trove been searched?
What date was Irene born in 1923?
(Irene was born 1923 and died 1957. She married Noel Graham Carey in 1940 at Mayfield
Again this is a marriage where one of the contracting parties may not have been of age - Irene was possibly 17 years at the time of her marriage.
Has the marriage certificate been sighted? Did Ivy sign as a parent?
Is there any suggestion that R Baldwin was Irene's father?
Did NRJ Baldwin marry? Has the marriage certificate been sighted? Who did he name as his parents?
Did either NRJ Baldwin or Irene Carey have any children? If so have any of them had DNA testing?
Is the R Baldwin who marries Elizabeth the OP's R Baldwin? Or is this the $64,000 question?
If so are we talking about a period of time 1920's if a younger R fathered Irene, until 1930 s ?
I have often had success with these sorts of problems (trying to find where people's movements may have intersected) by doing what I call 'time lining' or 'mentions'. I use an excel spreadsheet and enter every single date & location I can find relating to a person/group of persons and then order the dates into consecutive order.
Again I have come to this lately.....and may have gone off on a tangent. I agree that the best certificates to have are birth and marriage certificates.
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Lucy2, thanks for reminding me of the possible unreliability of death records. To date no luck in finding a Thomas Royce - so it may have been wrongly recorded on the death certificate. I will keep searching. I appreciate your help
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Hello Shanreagh, In answer to your questions - this is what I have: I still cannot find any marriage for R Baldwin to Irene (Ivy) May Hewett either in NSW or NZ. For that matter I have not found any divorce for them either. Roy left Ivy when Neville 1920's was 2 years old For Irene I have only got the year 1923 - cannot find day and month. She died in May 1957 (34 yrs of age) Irene married Noel Graham Carey in 1940 and they had children.
Neville married Sylvia Evelyn Smith in 1943 in Waratah NSW and they had 9 children. Neville died 28 Oct. 1986 at Gunnedah - on his death certificate it shows his father as "Thomas Royce" not 'Roy' and his mother is listed as 'Ivy'.
Ivy (after R leaves) went on to marry Walter Eric Norman Allowed in 1928.
I have not checked through Trove - I must admit I get lost in that site.
So the real problem is still trying to find when and if R and Irene (Ivy) married -the family oral history says they married in Napier NZ. but as you can see from other posts - no records can be found. It maybe even at the Wesleyan Church, Hamiliton - some whisper of that information but nothing concrete found as yet. Spreadsheet sounds like a great idea. Thanks again
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I am sorry if I have missed it on one or other thread, but
Do we have all the details from Neville’s Birth certificate, exactly as written upon it.
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IWCCC,
On that 1986 d.c. for Neville ... what is recorded about Ivy ... her maiden name ?
JM
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I am sorry if I have missed it on one or other thread, but
Do we have all the details from Neville’s Birth certificate, exactly as written upon it.
He was born 1920's, in NSW, so less than 100 years ago, so unless a family member has a copy obtained by Neville or his parents, it will be very unlikely that anyone can access that record until 100 years after his date of birth.
ADD .... non historic records for births NSW ... 100 years restrictions, marriages NSW ... 50 years restrictions, .... deaths, 30 years restrictions.
JM
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Yes. I thought that was the case. But was hoping. I think OP will just have to wait until it is 2024 ;D
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Yes. I thought that was the case. But was hoping. I think OP will just have to wait until it is 2024 ;D
At the rate the years are going, 2024 will soon be upon us. Good things come to those who wait ;D Think many of us are in the same boat waiting for the certain amount of years to arrive to eagerly get that printout.
Cheers
KHP
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Re a marriage in Hamilton ...
Yes, there's Hamilton in NZ ... but
there's also Hamilton, a suburb of Newcastle, NSW. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton,_New_South_Wales
ohhhh .... there's Hamilton with postcodes : 2303 (NSW), 3300 (Victoria); 4007 (Qld); 5373 (South Aust); 7140 (Tasmania); there's more ;)
https://auspost.com.au/postcode/hamilton
JM
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Lucy2, thanks for reminding me of the possible unreliability of death records. To date no luck in finding a Thomas Royce - so it may have been wrongly recorded on the death certificate. I will keep searching. I appreciate your help
Hi iwccc
Yes, my first instinct was that the informant to Neville's death, had the father's name wrong. But, better for you to do some extra checking (just in case). ;D
I have not checked through Trove - I must admit I get lost in that site.
So the real problem is still trying to find when and if R and Irene (Ivy) married -the family oral history says they married in Napier NZ. but as you can see from other posts - no records can be found. It maybe even at the Wesleyan Church, Hamiliton - some whisper of that information but nothing concrete found as yet.
I think we, RootsChatters - on both sides of the "ditch" (AUS and NZ that is), have now all had a good crack at trying to find "R BALDWIN - either born in, or married in, New Zealand - or with a connection to Napier". :)
It is always possible too that the oral history you have for this aspect of Roy and Ivy's life together, may have at some time, become "distorted" - added to or deleted from, - as these "stories" tend to do when being passed down through the generations. And that's just a reality most family historians have to face.
Your search is from an era too where we just expected that people "got married, then had kids". But that, (just like today), didn't always happen. ;)
Am including a link here for the wedding of R BALDWIN and E.S. (Betty) COLQUHOUN in 1930s.
They married at the Wesley (Wesleyan ?) Church at Hamilton, NSW. Maybe that solves the "mystery" you speak of, above ??
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136593221?searchTerm=roy%20baldwin
~ Lu
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I am sorry if I have missed it on one or other thread, but
Do we have all the details from Neville’s Birth certificate, exactly as written upon it.
Mckha ... this is one of those (typically Kiwi) ... "Yeah" / "Nah" responses.
So if you go to this thread ... from 2013 > >
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=644094.36
... you can view the replies from a grandchild of R BALDWIN and Ivy ... and a grandchild of their son Neville R.J. BALDWIN.
Firstly see page 5 - Reply # 36 (from "cheryl swinton" ) then # 43 ... proceed to end of thread.
Back on page 3 - Reply # 25 form "bobald"
Will leave you to decide if it answers your question. ;)
~ Lu
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Lucy2, Yes - Irene was born 1923 and died 1957. She married Noel Graham Carey in 1940 at Mayfield. thank you
Hello again iwccc
Just taking another "route" in an effort to solve your Roy BALDWIN puzzle.
*How certain are you that Ivy's daughter > Irene BALDWIN > was born in 1923 ??
* Do you or a family member have any document which might give her age (at any stage of her life) ?
[Am assuming she is the Irene CAREY buried 1957 at Sandgate Cemetery< (nr Newcastle) .. but I can't by any means, find an age at death for her ???]
~ Lu
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for iwccc
NSW BDM have the following birth registration just a few years earlier ???
[1920 is currently the limit for NSW birth searches.]
NSW BDM - BIRTH
42571 / 1919
BALDWIN - Irene M.
Father : Thomas
Mother : Ivy
Reg. District : Waratah
[Notes : Child seemingly has another forename ("M") ? :
Christian name for father is shown as "Thomas" ??? If you recall, I earlier posted on here the death entry for Neville R.J. BALDWIN (supposed son of Roy) ... which had father's name listed as "Thomas Royce" -> (refer Reply # 48 - page 6 of this thread).
I've looked to see if this birth was maybe for another "Irene" ... (and have eliminated one other).
Can see no marriage for the parents Ivy/Thomas .
There are no other births between 1900 and 1920 registered to an Ivy/Thomas BALDWIN in NSW .]
~ Lu
Edited to add reference
Further edit to correct reference number re: birth registration.
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for iwccc
NSW BDM have the following birth registration just a few years earlier ???
[1920 is currently the limit for NSW birth searches.]
NSW BDM - BIRTH
4257 / 1919
BALDWIN - Irene M.
Father : Thomas
Mother : Ivy
Reg. District : Waratah
[Notes : Child seemingly has another forename ("M") ? :
Christian name for father is shown as "Thomas" ??? If you recall, I earlier posted on here the death entry for Neville R.J. BALDWIN (supposed son of Roy) ... which had father's name listed as "Thomas Royce" -> (refer Reply # 48 - page 6 of this thread).
I've looked to see if this birth was maybe for another "Irene" ... (and have eliminated one other).
Can see no marriage for the parents Ivy/Thomas .
There are no other births between 1900 and 1920 registered to an Ivy/Thomas BALDWIN in NSW .]
~ Lu
Edited to add reference
May I add that an official transcription of that birth registration will include the informant's knowledge of where nd when baby's parents had married. NSW bdm online ndex now has option to determine exact date of event, and as it is currently 9 March 2021, it displays for NSW births up to and including 8 March 1921... perhaps copying a similar option online NZBDM
RChats NSW resources board has thread re Official Transcriptions, an excellent alternative to expensive NSWBDM certificates.
JM
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Rego 42571 of 1919 at NSW BDM births .... it is indexed under that number twice. Once as BALDWIN, once as BALLWIN, suggesting the handwriting may tend to be a bit of a scribble by the deputy registrar for Waratah district at that time. Irenes birth drills down to week before Christmas, you can drill down further to get exact date. Perhaps her father had been one of those who served on the Western Front, and who had Returned to Australia after the signing of the Armistice .... if so, many who arrived Sydney from late Jan, all of Feb and March 1919 were Medical repats.
JM.
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Hello Lucy2, Thank you so much for your input. WoW! This is the second reference of the father's name being 'Thomas Royce' for daughter Irene M. Baldwin. The district of Waratah also rings a bell as that is the area in which many of the family lived. I am starting to believe that 'Roy' was actually "Thomas Royce".
The next child that they seem to have is Neville R.J. Baldwin in 1924 so that makes sense that he is not listed between 1900 and 1920.
Apparently the family has been told that Roy (aka Thomas Royce)and Ivy were married in N.Z. but no record can be found for this. I tend now to believe that they were either married in NSW, Australia or maybe not married at all. I cannot find an entry anywhere. A family member also told me that they believe that Ivy and Roy had an 'unnamed male' before the birth of Irene.Later Roy married Elizabeth Scott Colquhoun in 1932 and on the wedding certificate the name 'Roy' was used. Once again, many thanks.
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Hello majm, Thank you for the information. I had not thought about the name "Baldwin'. I will in future search for that name also. I am not sure what you mean when you say "Irenes birth drills down to week before Christmas, you can drill down further to get exact date". Can you explain this to me - I have not come across this before. At this stage I have not found any evidence of the father being on the Western Front.
Very appreciative of the evidence of Roy being recorded as "Thomas Royce" - as you say this is the second time. This family is 'doing my head in' Only today I found a convicted bigamist, robbery with menace and death by car accident. Can't say its boring! Thanks again
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Hello.
Drilling down is usually a reference to the exercise of adjusting your search date field until you find the day the item being researched first appears. Try, try & try again. Eg not revealed on the 1st of June, but revealed on the 2nd of June, indicates the registered day of birth, when a birth entry is what you are looking for.
Alan.
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Yes, drilling down is as Alan has kindly explained. NSWBDM online search options allows searching for exact day of event.
You also attribute some remarks to me that I doubt were mine. I am not aware of saying that Roy is Thomas Royce or vice versa, yet you write that you're :
' ...very appreciative of the evidence of Roy being recorded as "Thomas Royce" - as you say this is the second time'
Do you have that 1919 birth cert? .... if so, please share the info recorded on it about where and when her parents married...
JM
Hello majm, Thank you for the information. I had not thought about the name "Baldwin'. I will in future search for that name also. I am not sure what you mean when you say "Irenes birth drills down to week before Christmas, you can drill down further to get exact date". Can you explain this to me - I have not come across this before. At this stage I have not found any evidence of the father being on the Western Front.
Very appreciative of the evidence of Roy being recorded as "Thomas Royce" - as you say this is the second time. This family is 'doing my head in' Only today I found a convicted bigamist, robbery with menace and death by car accident. Can't say its boring! Thanks again
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Hello majm, Thank you for the information....
... Very appreciative of the evidence of Roy being recorded as "Thomas Royce" - as you say this is the second time. This family is 'doing my head in'
Hello iwccc
It was me who posted details from the NSW Death Index in respect of Neville R.J. BALDWIN -- showing in that index, that the name of his father was given as "Thomas Royce". And my purpose was to illustrate that the informant to his death, may or may not have had the correct information about the father's name, and therefore some further investigation might be a wise move.
And again just recently I gave you - from the NSW Birth Index - an entry for 1919 >>
BALDWIN - Irene M. -- Parents: Thomas and Ivy / Reg. District : Waratah :
I'd also asked you if perhaps you had an age at death for Irene CAREY (nee BALDWIN) ... which might give a hint that she was born in a year other than 1923 ? I seem not to have received an answer to that question.
And my reason for asking that in particular, has to do with the similarity of names in both the death entry for Neville and the 1919 birth entry for this child Irene BALDWIN. Both Irene and Neville are said to have had "a" mother named Ivy ... but there is an element of curiosity that the name "Thomas" should crop up in both these records. For me, the three factors - surname BALDWIN / child named Irene M. and mother named Ivy, ... and probably the registration area too, would be enough to reach for my card and order a (transcript*) copy of this birth record. ;)
Yes, I know it's Roy BALDWIN you're seeking ... and yes, we've all had an unsuccessful search for the "mystery man, Thomas BALDWIN" ... but it's a number of years yet to wait for Neville's birth record to become available.
Sometimes with this type of very lengthy search, we need to explore other possibilities ... or even investigate other aspects within a family, in order to make progress. Often it can be just a snippet of information that sets us off on another pathway ... and eventually success.
~ Lu
[NOTE: * Transcript of a NSW Birth record is a less expensive option if you're considering purchasing same. I think link to Transcription agents has already been shared here - if not, you'll find it on the AUS RootsChat board. ]
Edit to correct spelling.
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Lucy2, My apologies for not thanking you for information - which I inadvertently attributed to another. The date 1923 for Irene was given to me by a relative..so I don't have any a certificate etc. I am currently trying to arrange a visit to someone who I believe is a relative with the hope that they may have some of these documents. It will be. some weeks before this can be arranged. My understanding was that Roy (or Thomas) and Irene (Ivy) had 3 children: 1 x died, Neville and thenIrene. At some time mother Irene decided to use the name 'Ivy" the family claims they do not know why. We know that Roy left the marriage or partnership when Neville was two years of age. Both parents went on to marry other people. This information is from interviews with family members. Again the details will need to be verified. Thank you again
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Fresh Fields. Thank you for your reply. Haven't tried this yet. Hopefully I will be able to manage the search.
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It's a simple process.
I will attach some screen captures to show the steps I took in this example prepared for you.
In the case of historic NZ B. D. & M. records, when you do a search online, you are only offered a year of entry, and a registration number. When you see an interesting result, you can limit your search to that year, then drill down through a number of steps.
I start with June that year, to see if registered in first or last half, I then try March, or September, depending upon the first result, then reduce the size [gap] of the steps, until I know the date the entry becomes active.
Remember occasionaly the registration is retrospective, so the registration year may not be the year of birth.
Exercise example attached.
Happy hunting.
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Fresh Fields, Thank you for your help with drilling down. Hectic life at present so I haven't had a chance to try it but I have kept a copy close by for my research. Thank you for taking the trouble to explain. Much appreciated.
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Hi iwccc
This is the BALDWIN birth I'd mention in an earlier post here :
NSW Birth Index
4257 / 1919
BALDWIN - Irene M.
Parents : Thomas and Ivy
Registration District : Waratah
Just looked back at my notes and had already worked out the date as being - 17 December 1919 - but, for some unknown reason, had omitted to add it to the post.
So that will save you some time. ;)
~ Lu
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Lucy2, Thank you for this information. I'm all in favour of saving time! Great help. Thank you