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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: David Neil on Wednesday 03 March 21 13:46 GMT (UK)
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Can you help me please to confirm if the people in these different census are the same family. I’m sorry I don’t have reference numbers to the census, I got most of below from FamilySearch during lockdown. I normally do my family research on Ancestry and Findmypast in the public library.
1851 census Llangollen Cysyllte
William Davies 39 Boatman born Llantysilio born 1812/13
Sarah “ 38 “ ?????, Meirionethshire
Children Walter (14); Jemima (13); William (10); Thomas (7); John (7); Ben (3); Mary (6 months).
Thomas Davies listed above is my gt gt grandfather. I think I found his brother Walter in the 1881 census, right age and 2 aunties like Walter’s father born in Llantysylio.
1881 census Llangollen
Harriet Hughes 70 born in Llantysilio 1811/12
Miriam Davies 52 born in Llantysilio 1819/1820 *
Walter Davies 44 Weaver born in Llangollen 1837
*possible error here for Miriam’s age, should be 62. In the 1871 census Miram listed as harriet’s sister, aged 53. I have found a Miriam Davies in the 1841 census with her parents.
1841 census Llangollen
Griffith Davies 65
Elizabeth Davies 60
Miriam Davies 20
Eliza Davies 15
Thomas Parry 45
John Roberts 50
I’m looking for baptismal records for William, Harriet and Miriam born in Llantysilio. Also any church records for William and Sarah who are recorded above in 1851 census. Is anyone able to decipher Sarah’s birthplace please. I know Sarah died between 1851 & 1861, as William is widowed living with son Benjamin in Durable, Christ Leton, Cheshire in 1861 census.
Also it would be great to find marriage of Griffith and Elizabeth Davies. I have found a Griffith Davies born in Clocaenog, which may fit. I know the 1841 census rounded off ages to the nearest 5 or 10!
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The 1851 -
HO107/2509/532/7
William is born Llansilin but it has a double l for second l
Sarah and the children seem to be born Vron, Llangollen -(Froncysyllte)
Added a snip of place of birth
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Thank you Gadget. I will look again at the records amending my research to Llansilin.
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looking at it again, I'm sure it ends with io not in - so it reads Llansillio.
I'll see if I can get a baptism.
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https://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/3245/names
So it could be a variation of Llantysilio. I've only ever known it as Llantysilio. My great grandmother came from there!
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The 1881
RG11/5540/122/2
Harriet Hughes, unm, head, 70, shopkeeper, b. Llantysilio
Miriam Davies, unm, servant, 62, general servant, b. Llantysilio
Walter Davies, mar, nephew, 44, weaver, b. Llagollen
Thomas Davies, unm, nephew, 13, painter, b. Llangollen
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Baptism, Llantysilio 5 April 1817
Miriam Davies, Father Griffith, a rockman, Mother Elizabeth, abode - Maengoran
I might have a photo of Maengoran.
Add - I don't see a baptism for the other two with these parents. Nothing. only two Williams - 1806 and 1809. Nothing for Harriet wit heithe names at the moment. I wonder if they were non-conformist?
Do you have a marriage for William and Sarah?
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That's interesting! Older people have different ways of pronouncing place names, making them slip off the tongue easier. My great grandmother from Froncysylle used to say 'Syswallt' (Croesyswallt) in Welsh for Oswestry. Also for Llanwyddelan (Montgomeryshire), local people say 'Llanddelan'!!! I would like to think my Davies ancestors came from Llantysilio. It's famous for the Horseshoe pass, and the waterfalls and Chain bridge!!!
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Thank you for this latest find. If William Davies was a rockman, I'm assuming Maengoran is not a farm.
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Thank you also for finding the other information. William and Sarah's son Thomas the boatman was a Baptist. My great grandparents were members of Carmel, Froncysyllte.
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I went to school in Llangollen ;D
Maengoran is a township - issaf and uchaf from memory. Llantysilio is really a large parish with isolated houses scattered around the hillside above the village itself.
Llantysilio church:
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One of these maybe Maengoran - I'll have to check my larger pics on other machine
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Such a pretty looking tranquil place! The church looks an interesting design. I am looking forward to visiting here later this year if we can be freed from current restrictions. Hopefully the Clwyd Family History Resource centre in Cefn Mawr will be open by then!
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I have all the Llantysilio parish records produced by CFH. In fact, I think I have most of them from this area ;D
FindMyPast is the best online site for the records but I see that Ancestry also has them now.
A cousin from my other side was the policeman there 1870s-1900-ish. James Burgess, a Scot. My other line was Jones
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This looks like it could be your William
Wsleysan Methodist Chapel, Llangollen
Oct 10 1813 William, son of Cadwaladr(labourer) and Elizabeth Davies of Llantysilio
Walter maybe a version of Cadwaladr. I've not known a translation - either Cadwaladr or Cad for short to my knowledge.
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Thank you for this, it's actually quite an interesting possibility that Cadwaladr is translated as Walter. Another Welsh translation for Walter could be Gwallter.
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When I visit the CFH resource centre I want to spend time looking at all the parish records for Llantysilio to see who else there is from Maengoron. I suppose the surname may be originally David, or even Cadwaladr if the old patronymics were used.
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Have just found possible marriage for Cadwaladr and Elizabeth Davies:
Marriage Banns
Event Date:
15 Sep 1805
Event Place:
Llangollen, Denbighshire, Wales
Event Place (Original):
Llangollen
Name:
Cadwalader Davies
Spouse's Name:
Elizabeth Owens
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Marriage happened on 2nd October!
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When I visit the CFH resource centre I want to spend time looking at all the parish records for Llantysilio to see who else there is from Maengoron. I
I'm not sure that it is Maengoran. That was for Miriam, parents - Griffith and Elizabeth
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That had slipped my mind!!!!
A Cadwaladr Davies appears in Trefor Uchaf as a lodger in 1851 census:
Cadwaladr Davies Age: 72. Trevor Uchaf, Merionethshire, Wales.Birth Year (Estimated):1779
Birthplace: ? Denbighshire Marital Status Widower. Occupation:Labourer
Relationship to Head of Household: Lodger
Page Number:
19
Piece/Folio:
2509 / 420
Registration Number:
HO107
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That's just across the aquaduct from Fron ;D
(will have a look at him)
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In 1841 he could be here, with wife Elizabeth
Pen y ddol, Trefor Uchaf, Llangollen
HO107/1400/17/23/3
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Thank you for your continued help. This research is getting very interesting. I particularly like reading about house or farm names that used to be in the family, and am still looking for a suitable one for my house. I will do some google research for Pen y ddol (above the meadow). We had some relations in Trefor until fairly recently. I still have a 2nd cousin living in Garth!
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No sign of Pen y Ddol Trefor on the 1900 OS map. There is a Pen y Ddol cottage and Pen y Ddol bridge on the Llangollen canal. It's nearer Llangollen than Trefor, so don't think it's Where Cadwaladr and Elizabeth lived. I did some more research on FamilySearch on this couple, they had several children after William as late as 1820s.
Now that we have found Cadwaladr and Elizabeth nearer Fron, it makes sense that William met Sarah nearby. Can I ask one last request please, for the marriage of William and Sarah in Fron or Llangollen. Walter was their first, born about 1837. I have a possible baptism for him in Llangollen for May 1st 1837. Parents were probably married between 1830 and 1836.
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I've been looking on and off all afternoon. I did ask about them earlier.
The nearest was in Wrexham and it didn't seem correct. I'll go and look again. It would have to be a parish one if before 1837.
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Nothing jumps out.
Have you checked for birth registrations of the ones b. after 1837 that would show the mother's maiden name?
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There are pages and pages of Pen y ddôl on the 1841. I think one end was Dinbren. Dôl/ddôl is a field/meadow so you're looking for that type of area (pen y ddôl would be top of the meadow). It might be down by the river :-\ The Dee valley is very U-shaped with a flat bottom, with the Berwyn foothills to the south and the Eglwyseg outcrop and Garth to the north. I can see it in my mind's eye still ;D
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Thank you so much Gadget for all the hard work you have achieved for me today. There is plenty there for me to reflect on and do further this week and when the library is open. Diolch yn fawr iawn.