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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Katsy8 on Thursday 04 March 21 20:46 GMT (UK)
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Albert’s was fostered to an Amy and Charles Chapman. His wedding cert in 1912 in Sydney gives parents names as Edward Fuller a Sawyer by trade and Helen Davis both deceased before 1912 . I can’t find any record of Albert’s birth or deaths of his parents in NSW records .
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
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I have asked the moderator to move your post to the Australia board
There is an English marriage between an Edward Fuller which has an Ellen Davis on the same page but it was in 1862 in Worcester.
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Hello
Do you know where was Albert fostered and in what year? There might be some clues there.
It is possible that he wasn't born in NSW.
Jackie
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Many thanks
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Unfortunately I don’t on his war records his foster mother Amy is recorded as nok
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There is a tree on Ancestry showing Edward Fuller b NSW 1870 died Sydney 1912.
Says he had one child to Amy Matilda Grace Chapman & one with Helen Davis
Albert Henry was b 30.4.1893 and the tree gives Amy as his mother??
His birth may be registered as either Davis or Chapman if there was no marriage to either woman. Helen is also supposed to have died in Sydney in 1912
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Amy was his foster mother and I’ve been unable to find records of him being a ward of the state or
His circumstances before living with the Chapman family
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This may be your Edward Fuller - in 1891 Census for Shaftesbury Gardens, Glebe - household of 2 males, 2 females but there is no further information.
Jackie
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Please see reply above. If Edward never married either Helen or Amy - Alberts birth may be registered as either Davis or Chapman so you need to check for that possibility as you now have his full birthdate
if Edward & Helen did die in 1912 you need to check for their death registrations - check for Helen under both Fuller & Davis
You could also consider contacting the tree owner for additional info.
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My correction.....DAVIS.....not HARRIS
Ancestry Anglican Sydney BDM
St Pauls Sydney 6 Feb 1912
FULLER Albert Henry 19y biograph operator bachelor res. 38 Goodsell St Newtown
Birthplace: Surry Hills NSW
Parents: FULLER Edward sawyer (dec) DAVIS Helen (dec)
HANNAN Bertha Gladys 18y tailoress res. Harwood Lane Pyrmont
Birthplace: Hawkesbury River NSW
Parents: HANNAN Ernest boatbuilder (dec) NELSON Elizabeth
Witnesses HANNAN Elizabeth SANTER Elsie H M
RIDGLEY William Guardian of Minors, J.P. gives permission for Albert to marry
HANNAN Elizabeth mother giver permission for Bertha to marry.
*************
14 Oct 1912 St Pauls Sydney
SANTER Elsie Helena May 24y spinster res. 38 Goodsell St St Peters
Birthplace: Waterloo NSW
Parents: SANTER Frank, fireman......TURNER Theresa Helena
FINN Harold Patrick builders labourer 25y bachelor res. 38 Goodsell St St Peters
Birthplace: Mudgee NSW
Parents: FINN William Thomas farmer (dec) HAYWOOD Caroline (dec)
Witnesses FULLER B HANNAN Elizabeth
Who is B FULLER?
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Thanks Wivenhoe I wonder if B Fuller was a possible brother ? I will need to look into Goodsell st more
As it appears there are more clues to be found there.
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I thought it might have been an additional FULLER......
No.....I think it is Bertha nee HANNAN.....married 6 months earlier to Albert.
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From opening post
His wedding cert in 1912 in Sydney gives parents names as Edward Fuller a Sawyer by trade and Helen Davis
From reply above
Parents: FULLER Edward sawyer (dec) HARRIS Helen (dec)
Davis or Harris?
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Albert married again to Constance Linda May Boughton in 1929 in Bondi his mother’s name was Helen Dave’s/Davis on cert.
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Two signatures -
Marriage, 1912....Albert Henry FULLER
https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/61177/images/45578_cle%5Ema19111913-00101?
Enlistment, 1917....Albert FULLER.....born Sydney....not married
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=4035418
Are these signatures the same?
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Correction to my reply#9.....DAVIS
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Supporting wivenhoe's question, :) - not everyone will have access to the Ancestry images.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=4035418
This set of records is freely available online from the National Archives of Australia. It clearly shows Mrs Amy Grace CHAPMAN, (Foster Mother) as his next of kin. Changes of address on Attestation, but of Wattle St, Haberfield - a suburb of Sydney). His signature at page 2, Albert Fuller. On page 3, dated 28 Feb 1917, he was then aged 23 years 8 months which matches with page 1 info, born Surry Hills (civil) parish, in city of Sydney, in the (civil) county of Cumberland. NSW.. page 5, same signature on 8 March 1917...
Notice on the marriage that the (NSW) Guardian of Minors gave consent for Albert Henry Fuller, of 38 Goodsell St NEWTOWN , a biograph operator, aged 19, to marry - married on 6 February 1912.
JM
ADD, I do not think the signature on the AIF paperwork matches the signature on the marriage. In particular, the capital A in his given name simply does not match.
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NSW Electoral Roll 1913 (December) BOTANY, polling St Peters.
ALL with surname CHAPMAN
Amy Grace , 106 May St, domestic duties .
Annie, same address, domestic duties
Charles Wadsworth, same address, accountant
Joseph Malcolm, same address, machinist
JM
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here's a snip from AIF
The 1912 marriage was ended with Bertha seeking a divorce, decree nisi September 1916, and absolute April 1917. (Trove announcements).
JM
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That is some serious detective work Majm & Wivenhoe
Signature of marriage 2 is illegible
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Here is Edward FULLER, a sawyer living in Sydney, in trouble.
Edward FULLER the sawyer on theft charge 1886
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107312647
Throwing stones in 1893
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/227179510
Sue
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Edward FULLER, a sawyer married in 1883 to Ada SHIRVINGTON
They were both of Sydney, he a bachelor and she a spinster and of full age.
Her father was Job SHIRVINGTON, a photographer and his was Edward deceased.
He was not a kind husband and brought other women to his home for which he was dealt with in the law.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13604744
Sue
ADDING
Ada and Edward FULLER divorced in 1897.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/238403620
If it is the correct Edward, this was after the birth of your Albert c.1892
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A person often 'knows' where they were born, as per info given to them, and in that era, the clergy would not have needed to sight any ID proof. Albert would simply have informed the clergyman of his age, and that both parents were no longer living, and at that time the clergyman would have explained he needed permission, and that the Guardian of Minors was one of the positions that would be able to give such permission. Also, 'Surry Hills' in the 1890s ... not exactly a preferred address for anyone, but often it does point to a birth with support from the Benevolent Society. Here's the online index for admissions .... I could not find a likely one, sorry. https://sydneybenevolentasylum.com/index.php?page=search-index - this is one of many excellent live links - freely available - you can find at the NSW Resources board : https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
JM
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NSW Archives would likely have that divorce file ...
INDEX
FULLER Ada - FULLER Edward
Divorce records Index 1873-1923
Year: 1897 | Divorce Number: 2524
It may well have birth certificates for children of the marriage.
ADD
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/divorce-records-index
further ADD ..... Ada BRODZIAK was petitioner...
JM
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NSW Archives would likely have that divorce file ...
INDEX
FULLER Ada - FULLER Edward
Divorce records Index 1873-1923
Year: 1897 | Divorce Number: 2524
It may well have birth certificates for children of the marriage.
ADD
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/divorce-records-index
further ADD ..... Ada BRODZIAK was petitioner...
JM
I don't know why she is named as BRODZIAK,
There was only one Church of England, 1883 Edward FULLER the sawyer to Ada marriage.
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It does not make sense to me, but it may be a clue, so perhaps our OP may know.
JM
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A confronting matter.
Albert FULLER, photo number 13228
Photo taken 25 September 1913
Native Place, Surry Hills
Year of birth, 30 April 1893
British Subject
Biograph Operator
CofE
Read and Write
5 ft 4 1/2 inches without shoes
122 lbs weight
Light brown hair and other information
Offence : Wife desertion. Central Police Court 24 September 1913, sentenced : Sureties or 12 months imprisonment. NO OTHER OFFENCES recorded.
https://records-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/fulldisplay?context=L&vid=61SRA&lang=en_US&docid=INDEX308276
JM
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There had been a little child too.
FULLER Lorrie E
37921/1912
Parents Albert H & Bertha G
SYDNEY
Sue
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I’ve seen his offence for wife desertion and the following year he joins the services where his records bequeath everything to Amy Chapman his foster mother. What has me really stumped now is the difference in his signatures and Helen Davis being recorded on both marriage certificates as his mother?
Was he given the wrong name for his mother and could it be Ada?
Thankyou all so much for some great leads I will keep hunting .
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https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/
Charles Wadsworth Chapman aged 26, a sharebroker first married in Tasmania to Anne Marie Jones, aged 22 in 1883.
She died of typhoid
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9121197
In 1888 he married as a widower, accountant, to Amy Grace Chapman, both of full age. Witnessed by Ethel E Chapman and Vincent Tregear.
There were children born in Tasmania.
The couple were still in Tasmania in 1893 when this child was born
M. Chapman
Birth Dat 17 Nov 1893
Birth Place Tasmania
Registration Year1893
Registration PlaceHobart, Tasmania, Australia
Father Charles Wadswor Chapman
Mother Amy Grace Chapman
Registration 1148
In 1897, they lived in Redfern.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/251899211
Sue
PS I am not as convinced as some that the a different hand wrote the 2 signatures. (One from his AIF papers record and one from his first marriage)
Handwriting does change over years and I think a number of the letters contained have strong similarities to each other
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I’ve seen his offence for wife desertion and the following year he joins the services where his records bequeath everything to Amy Chapman his foster mother. What has me really stumped now is the difference in his signatures and Helen Davis being recorded on both marriage certificates as his mother?
Was he given the wrong name for his mother and could it be Ada?
Thankyou all so much for some great leads I will keep hunting .
I see no recorded births to Edward FULLER and Ada (SHIRVINGTON)
Sue
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Marriage, 1929 NSW.....what occupation do you see for Albert Henry FULLER?
How does he name his parents and father's occupation?
What names do you see for witnesses?
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Married at st mathews Bondi 27 th April 1929
Occupation electrical engineeer
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I’ve seen his offence for wife desertion and the following year he joins the services where his records bequeath everything to Amy Chapman his foster mother. What has me really stumped now is the difference in his signatures and Helen Davis being recorded on both marriage certificates as his mother?
Was he given the wrong name for his mother and could it be Ada?
Thankyou all so much for some great leads I will keep hunting .
The desertion was 1913. The enlistment was several years after that.
... 25 September 1913 Charged with wife desertion.
Enlisted 28 Feb 1917.
JM.
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Re Surry Hills circa 1893
City of Sydney, Ward map using a 20th century map.
http://photosau.com.au/cosrates/scripts/display.asp?Term=Ward_boundaries_1870-1902&City+Boundarys+and+Wards=Ward_boundaries_1870-1902
Surry Hills clearly marked : Elizabeth St south of Liverpool St, Oxford St, east of intersection of Elizabeth and Liverpool streets and only as far east as Dowling St, Dowling Street south only as far as its intersection with Flinders St, then the boundary goes east through back yards of properties to Greens Road, then along the southern boundary of Victoria Barracks including ALL of the Moore Park precinct noting the south-eastern boundary at Anzac Parade and Alison Road, and then back to South Dowling Street, to Cleveland Street and back to Elizabeth St.
City of Sydney, Assessment Books (Rates Books, often noting the name of the tenant and not just the name of the owner/landlord). So Surry Hills is in the COOK Ward.
https://archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/nodes/view/1742800 There are assessment books for 1891 and 1896 that may be relevant, and a search option too…
The City of Sydney Archives also has Sands Directories.
https://archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/nodes/view/495003 so the following link should give you 1894 editions. – The Goal photo has Albert’s Date of Birth as 30 April 1893, at Surry Hills. The 1894 edition’s closing date for publication was October 1893.
https://archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/nodes/view/1898965?keywords=&type=all
Parts 6, 7, 8, 9 are Alphabetical by surname. FULLER as a surname would be in part 6, page 57.. https://archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/nodes/view/1900092
I have not found Edward FULLER, Surry Hills NSW c 1893. Not sure why a Sawyer would be Surry Hills based in the 1890s. I would expect to find Sawyers in regional NSW, not in the CBD of Sydney.
JM.
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NSW BDM birth
531/1901 CHAPMAN Nellie M parents Charles W / Amy G @ Sydney
1090/1902 CHAPMAN Cuthbert E parents Charles W / Amy G
NSW BDM death
10700/1922 CHAPMAN Brighta parents Charles W / Amy G @ Ashfield
10185/1975 CHAPMAN Cuthbert Eynon parents Charles Wadsworth / Amy Grace
10185/1975 CHAPMAN Thomas parents Charles Wadsworth / Amy Grace
7218/1983 CHAPMAN Malcolm Joseph parents Charles Wadsworth / Amy Grace
NAA WW1 enlistmant
CHAPMAN Malcolm Joseph : SERN 18624 : POB Glenorchy TAS : POE Sydney NSW
NOK F CHAPMAN Charles Wadsworth
(26y 10m at Mar 1917)
CHAPMAN Arthur Bingham : SERN 834 : POB Hobart TAS : POE Liverpool NSW
NOK M CHAPMAN Amy Grace
( 21 y 4m at Mar 1915)
SMH 14 Aug 1922 p8
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16018866?
CHAPMAN.—August 12, at her residence, 42 Wattle-st, Haberfield, Brighta, beloved daughter of Amy Grace and Charles Wadsworth CHAPMAN, aged 29 years.
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JM,
I don't seem able to negotiate the rates books very well.
Are you at all able to see DAVIS at Surry Hills
Especially a dairyman named William DAVIS. Newspaper reports of this man's court appearances do place him at Redfern, but that's close.
I am interested in him in this case as he was married to one Ellen DAVIS whom he treated appallingly.
As early as 1887, Ellen Davis abused by her husband William at Redfern. Her child was 4 months old.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108229147
Ellen Davis in Redfern, wife of William Davis estranged from husband. 1890
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108805202?
This Ellen Davis, 40 in 1892. "Remains of a respectable married woman"
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113319756?
As you can gather, my thinking is only speculation at this point, but a connection between this Ellen (Helen ) DAVIS and Edward FULLER might be found.
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Hi Sue,
You will likely well remember how the 'spurts messed up NSW BDM online around six or seven years ago ... well I think they migrated to City of Sydney .... but all my ancient rellies and I have been slowly working through various online and offline records.... We have concentrated on FULLER and occupation of Sawyer. And the ancient ones will get onto DAVIS later this afternoon. One of them noticed Ellen being badly treated... patterns of behaviour ...
But here is the outcomes for 1902 NSW electoral roll covering Surry Hills ... as in we found NO sighting of Edward FULLER, and only four for the occupation of sawyer.
Here: four listed with occupation as sawyer on the 1902 NSW electoral roll for EAST SYDNEY polling in Cook.
Hubert DOUGLAS, 11 Butt St, a sawyer
Annie DOUGLAS, 11 Butt St, domestic duties
Mary Ann DOUBLAS, 11 Butt St, domestic duties
Charlotte SMITH, 14 Cooper St, domestic duties
Emma SMITH, 14 Cooper St, domestic duties
Florence SMITH, 14 Cooper St, domestic duties
Henry SMITH, senior, 14 Cooper St, sawyer
Henry SMITH, junior, 14 Cooper St, sawyer
John William SMITH, 14 Cooper St, sawyer
So in 1902, the year NSW first included females on the electoral rolls …. On that particular roll there were 4850 electors. If we are sensible, we can fairly assume that about half were females. So of the say 2400 males listed, (all aged 21 years and over, all as British Subjects), just FOUR were sawyers.
In the nearby polling place of Bligh…. There is a William MORRIS, of 9 Little Hill St, a sawyer. His position on that roll was 3158. His was the first I found at that polling place. There are 4877 names, so again half that number to allow for female electors. I also had a quick look at Belmore as a polling place. NO NO NO, not the suburb of Belmore. Belmore as in that Sydney CBD district at the northern side of Central Railway Station, country platforms… That park’s name was/is Belmore Park.
I have run out of time at the moment to look further for Edward Fuller, or for a Sawyer in and around Surry Hills. Sorry.
But now they have a TO DO list from Sue ... I have been instructed to say ... Many thanks to Sue, she is someone who appreciates focusing. I wont repeat what I was chided over ... ::) ::) ;D ;D
JM
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https://dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/surry_hills
read the info about the 1890s
JM
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What exactly is meant by The Glebe?
1903
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The Glebe .... if you are asking about inner Sydney in the 1890s ... its the Church of England land dedicated just opposite Sydney Uni's Vet clinic entrance on Parramatta Road, in the suburbs of Glebe and Forest Lodge... - Westmoreland Street etc ... modern language would say 'social housing' ... Ragged Schools. One of my Great Grandmothers was a school teacher at a Ragged School in that area in the 1890s. NSW had commenced compulsory secular education in the 1870s, but the Education department had loads of rules to avoid supporting the education for economically challenged families. eg... you could not go to school without shoes... So some families sent their children to school in clogs, and teachers were meant to send those children home... not my Gt Grand's students. They all got a length of butchers string ... so they laced their clogs onto their feet for assembly. :D sorry for diverting, and not focusing... ::)
Some further info from Ancient bods !
From an online submitted tree.
16 September 1912, at Waterloo, NSW
Rose Hannah Ellen SMITH, widow, born Redfern NSW, home duties, aged 50, parents as Richard McConville and Mary Wood.
Septimus SMITH death 1910, Victoria.
7 December 1898, at Richmond Victoria.
Married at 3 Brick Street, Richmond, to Septimus SMITH, widower since 1893, no children. Septimus is a Commission Agent. Septimus lived at 14 Burnley St, Fitzroy and Rosannah at 218 Cardigan St CARLTON.
Divorce 18 October 1898 NSW
Marriage Cert stamped ‘This marriage no. 2216 was dissolved by decree of the Supreme Court of New South Wales on 18 October 1898 registered no. 2902 of 1898 RG Dept no. 98/4668. ‘ (JM notes RG is ‘Registrar General’s Office/Department).
Marriage 6 November 1880 Waterloo NSW, Pitt Street, to William Henry DAVIS. No other details on that marriage on that submitted tree.
Children of that 1880 marriage listed as Maud Mary Alice born 10 Sept 1881, Redfern; William Henry, born 1883 Redfern; Mary born 1886, Redfern; Hugh born 1887, Redfern.
I confirm that NSW State Archives online index has that 1898 divorce listed: DAVIS Roseannah Ellen - DAVIS William Henry
Divorce records Index 1873-1923
Year: 1898 | Divorce Number: 2902
The 1912 marriage for Albert has both his parents as deceased, and as he was under age to give his own consent to his own marriage, the NSW Guardian of Minors was asked to consider and consequently that officer gave the consent. NSW Guardian of Minors administratively was a function of the Registrar General’s Office, so either that Justice of the Peace who gave consent was simply rubber stamping, or the Reg Gen’s staff had found Albert’s birth registration and the death registrations for both his parents.
ADD ... And we are left to wonder what happened to three original documents that ought to be at least indexed at NSW BDM .... mis-filed in 1912... Quite possibly, that's when NSW government provided additional funding to get on with reconciling the NSW BDM marriage records, and an influx of untrained clerical people (males !) may have been left unsupervised to do the filing ...
JM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_results_for_the_district_of_Glebe
JM
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Well found Sue ;D
NSW ER 1902 WEST SYDNEY, polling Blackwattle.
FULLER Edward, 44 Queen Street, Sawyer.
Sydney Sands Suburban 1900
Queen Street, Glebe
44, Mrs Mary MOCKLER
JM
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1905 Sands
Edward FULLER, 21 Francis St Glebe
JM
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44 Queen Street in 1900. Very downtrodden house.
Mrs Margaret Mockler ordered to repair and make habitable.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14344634
This may be the death of Edward FULLER
Edward Fuller
Year 1911
At Parramatta,
Parents Edward & Elizabeth
Reg 7101
This man is buried at Rookwood in a “shared grave “ which appears to be for those whose burial was funded by the public purse.
Date 22 JUN 1911
The couple you have highlighted -William Henry DAVIS and Rose Hannah Ellen formerly SMITH are not the same pair as those I have mentioned above.
Here is the newspaper report of the divorce hearing for Rose Hannah and William Henry DAVIS
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/239470765
Sue
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Yes, Section NN in Zone C at Rookwood is as you suggest.
DD for 7101/1911, 19 June 1911.
JM
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Sands 1909 suburban streets, Parramatta. - so by streets, the surname of the householder is listed against the street listing. I cannot find any E FULLER on the suburban streets of Parramatta (the suburb, NOT the broader district).
Sands 1910 Alphabetical listing... so for Sydney and Metro, including Parramatta ... under FULLER ... from A.D. to William - none listed for Parramatta... closest I think would be Grand Ave, Granville, but given name displayed as Gabriel. NONE as Edward anywhere in Metro Sydney in that Alpha section of 1910 Sands.
JM
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I could not see his name on the NSW Archives records for Parramatta Asylum entries, but I don't know how complete the records are..
Sue
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Just because it was registered at Parramatta BDM deputy registrar's office, does not mean death was at Parramatta. Could be at Parramatta - , but he may have been a patient at one of a number of Destitute facilities in Sydney metro area ... including at Rookwood/Lidcombe or Liverpool or Parramatta with two facilities, or Newington (mainly females).
https://dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/botanica_and_lidcombe_hospital
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/image/4346_a020_a020000186
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/infirm-destitute-asylums-guide Government asylums in 1911
By 1911 the Branch administered State Hospitals and Asylums for the Infirm at Rookwood, Liverpool, Newington, Macquarie St - Parramatta, George St - Parramatta, Cottage Homes for Aged Couples - Parramatta and the Waterfall State Hospital for Consumptives.
ADD Rydalmere Psychiatric Centre dates from 1907 .... its Parramatta also...
JM
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Sue and JM you are truly remarkable ! I am soooo appreciative of your assistance and you have given me so many more avenues to explore. I would love to know when Amy & Charles Chapman first fostered Albert ,Wards of the state records in NSW don’t appear to be forthcoming but there has to be some record somewhere.
Many thanks again
KAT
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Sue and JM you are truly remarkable ! I am soooo appreciative of your assistance and you have given me so many more avenues to explore. I would love to know when Amy & Charles Chapman first fostered Albert ,Wards of the state records in NSW don’t appear to be forthcoming but there has to be some record somewhere.
Many thanks again
KAT
It would be interesting to know how they came upon young Albert.
As I have mentioned, the CHAPMAN;s were still in Tasmania in 1893 and the first sighting I make of Charles Wadsworth CHAPMAN in NSW in 1897 which of course does not mean he wasn't there ;D
Amy had plenty of children herself, (see winenhoe's listing) so was extending a very generous hand in taking on another little one.
Actually there does not have to be a record, helpful as it would be.
Fostering and adopting were really the same thing at that time and there was not legislation connected. It is possible he was simply the child of an acquaintance, or neighbour and was taken in as a need arose.
Sue
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Here you are, on the Australia Board now. ;D
Watch the given name for this chap.
Sands Alpha 1885. Sydney.
Edwin FULLER, Stewart St, Paddington.
Sands Alpha 1890
Edward FULLER 54 Stewart St, Paddington.
Sands Alpha 1895
E. FULLER, 54 Stewart St, Paddington.
It is near midnight I will check again tomorrow.
JM
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Sands Directories in Sydney in that era came out annually. Very detailed, many sections. Closing date for entries was end of October each year. So here's 1893. I will try to find time to do similar search of the 1894 edition. Albert was born 30 April 1893, Surry Hills, as per his Goal Photo info.
Sands Alpha 1893
FULLER Mrs E, 49 McKenzie St, Balmain (171)
FULLER Mrs E, 87 Hereford St, Glebe (239)
FULLER E, 10 Prospect St, Paddington (372)
FULLER, Edgar, 35 Pyrmont Bridge Rd, Camperdown (201)
FULLER Edward, 12 Adelaide Place (2)
FULLER Edwin, 54 Stewart St, Paddington (373)
FULLER Ernest J, Victoria hotel, Marshall Street (84)
(JM NOTES those numbers inside the brackets are MY remarks, they are page numbers that MAY help me find further info in the ‘Streets’ section of that 1893 edition of Sands.)
SANDS Streets 1893
Page 372
Prospect St - West side
10
Eugene FULLER, butcher
Page 373
Stewart St – North side
54
Edwin FULLER (JM notes the entry for this chap does NOT give any additional info)
Page 201
Prymont Bridge Road –( yes, JM checked it is the section in Camperdown), - South side
35
Edgar FULLER – (JM notes … no further info)
Page 239
87 Hereford St – North side
FULLER Mrs E
FULLER S.H. (JM notes, that’s the first time I have noticed S.H. FULLER)
Page 171
McKenzie St, Balmain – West side
49
FULLER Mrs E (JM notes … no further info
Page 84
Marshall St – East Side - (JM notes the section from Cook Street commences at no. 50 and concludes at no. 76, that’s a grocer. So at the intersection of Cook St and Marshall St is No. 50, and it faces Marshall St_
50 Victoria hotel – Ernest J FULLER
54 COTTOM
56 McGOWEN, John, plasterer
…..
Page 2
Adelaide place off Howard St (JM notices all seven households are ‘even numbered’ - 2 to 14.)
12, FULLER, Edward (JM notes, no further info)
JM
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Sands Alpha 1894
FULLER Mrs E, 47 McKenzie St, Balmain (in 1893, Mrs E was at no. 49 McKenzie)
FULLER Mrs E, 87 Hereford St, Glebe (in 1893 Mrs E was at no. 81 Hereford)
FULLER E, 10 Prospect St, Paddington (same as in 1893)
FULLER, E.T.H., broker, Woolbrokers’ chambers, Young St (did I miss this in 1893)
FULLER, Edgar, 35 Pyrmont Bridge Rd, Camperdown (same as in 1893)
FULLER Edwin, 54 Stewart St, Paddington
Noticing that two are missing from 1893… including Edward FULLER at 12 Adelaide Place…
SANDS Streets in 1894 edition
Page 386
Prospect St - West side
10
Eugene FULLER, butcher
Page 386 in 1894 edition
Stewart St – North side
54
Edwin FULLER (JM notes the entry for this chap does NOT give any additional info)
Page 208 in 1894 edition
Prymont Bridge Road –( yes, JM checked it is the section in Camperdown), - South side
35
Edgar FULLER – (JM notes … still no further info)
Page 252 in 1894 edition
81 Hereford St – North side
FULLER Mrs E
FULLER S.H. (JM notes, that’s the second time I have noticed S.H. FULLER) - no listing for 87 Hereford St,
Page 177 in 1894 edition
McKenzie St, Balmain – West side
47
FULLER Mrs E (JM notes … no further info, and that in 1893 she was at No. 49, but there’s NO listing for no. 49 in 1894)
Page 83 in 1894 edition
Marshall St – East Side - JM notes there’s NO HOTEL and no listing for 50 or 52…
54 GIFFARD, Mrs Kate
56 McGOWEN, John, plasterer
…..
Page 2 in 1894 edition
Adelaide place off Howard St …
JM notes there’s now only five households so it ends at no. 10. None surname FULLER
JM
more in following post... :D
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So where did Edward FULLER of 12 Adelaide Place get to?
Well, yes, of course I kept looking… Sands 1895 Streets, pages 1 and 2
Adelaide Place, Off Howard Street
2 GODDARD Mrs Elizabeth
4 LAMBERTH Charles
6 LEONARD James
8 WARNER John
10 RICHARDS W, saddler
12 GLADSTONE John
14 FOSTER William
Sands Alpha 1896 – only two listings with initial as E
FULLER E, 10 Prospect St PADDINGTON
FULLER E.T.A. broker, Woolbrokers’ chambers Young St
Sands Alpha 1897
FULLER E.T.A. broker, Woolbrokers’ chambers, Young St; p.r. Flood St, Bondi (JM confirms p.r. is abbreviation for private residence)
FULLER, Edgar, 34 Avenue, Camperdown
FULLER Eugene, 10 Prospect St, Paddington
Also I remembered to look for S.H. Fuller in 1897.
S.H. FULLER, manufacturer of photographic goods, 482 George St, p.r. Redmyre Road, Strathfield.
and to borrow some words from Peter Cundall 'that's your blooming lot' .... well for now ! Fingers crossed there's no typos ! :) ::) :-[ ::)
JM
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JM has certainly done some remarkable searching there ;D.
I have spent a little time on the newspapers-
Edward FULLER was in trouble with the law from as early as 1865.
Note he is a sawyer.
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deleted, duplicating posts...
JM
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Sands 1898 Streets - Strathfield
Redmyre Road (Strathfield) North side
from Boulevard to Homebush Road
LUKEY R.J. 'Trefusis'
Newnham High School
GIBBES Mrs E M 'Staverton'
FULLER S.H., 'Avarua'.
CREAGH Rev S.M. (Cong) 'Arundel'
HOLLEY Thomas, fuel merchant
(JM notes that 'Cong' is abbreviation for Congregational Denomination.
Leader ( a Vic newspaper) 21 Jan 1899 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196514356?
FULLER On the 5th January, at her residence, 'Avarua', Strathfield, Sydney, New South Wales, the wife of S Howard FULLER of a daughter.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28039435 SMH 19 Aug 1931 - death of Sands Howard FULLER...
NSW BDM ... his d.c. index info has his parents as Edward H and Eliza A, registered Chatwood #10692/1931.
I cannot see how to check further if there's a possible genealogical connection from S H Fuller to Albert, sorry, but noting that S H's father was recorded as Edward... .
Sands 1863 ...
FULLER
Elizabeth, Adolphus lane, Balmain
John, butcher, Botany st, Redfern
Samuel, Venetian blindmaker, 286 Pitt st
JM
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Edward John Godfrey FULLER according to online trees ... born 1844, Dural NSW (so Pennant Hills would be a suitable fit and needs to be confirmed/eliminated)
and that tree also notes that Edward John Godfrey Fuller of Dural died 27 Sep 1910 and buried 28 Sep 1910 age 65 an orchardist
I think that would be this death : #10685/1910
Edward J G FULLER, parents as Robert and Mary A, registered Parramatta.
I must log out, I need to clean my specs ! and there's a basket of ironing ... ::)
JM
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In 1881, Edward was using the alias KING. Edward FULLER alias KING. “The best sawyer I have…..” 1881.See snip image foot of this post.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107225912
The conviction was quashed December 1881
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13501876
Stolen gold watch in Sydney. Edward FULER committed for trial 1884
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/251653264
But acquitted again under peculiar circumstances. Feb 1885.
FULLER was stated as living at the Criterion Hotel at this time.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/237231437
I feel this snip is most likely the right Edward FULLER , vagrant in Parramatta in March 1908. He says he has left the Asylum and is starving and weak. Agrees to return to the Asylum.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/85986231
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I am completely blown away by you Sue & JM wow 🤩 it seems you’ve seriously left no stone unturned. The vagrant and alias King gives serious food for thought . Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou
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I am completely blown away by you Sue & JM wow 🤩 it seems you’ve seriously left no stone unturned. The vagrant and alias King gives serious food for thought . Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou
Hi,
It is all a very interesting story and you have a couple of options now for the father of Albert Henry FULLER.
I might make a bold suspicion that the mother of Edward was one KING (possibly Eliza or Elizabeth) and he used that name as an alias when needed.
A note for your interest.
You have a date of 30th April 1893 as the birth of Albert Henry FULLER, but his AIF enlistment details do not quite agree. More Like June I think. Quite possibly he did not himself know his birth date with certainty.
Sue
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Yes, Sue's suspicions... make very good sense. And my back up team are still eagerly engaged on the quest. So, I ought to mention that NSW BDM births using asterisk * for surname and limiting event date 30 Apr 1893 to 1 May 1893 brings up many whose rego numbers seem to include 1926 or 1927 etc.... those are likely formal birth registrations recognising adoptions - the back up team are checking with some other Old Boys from NSW bdm....
But at present they are still going through indexes looking for possible siblings for Albert. They are not impressed with the Guardian of Minors effort on the 1912 m.c.
JM.
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The dates are 3 months out if you compare enlistment at age 23 8/12 in 1917 and his goal record
Dates. I completely missed that but the year 1893 is consistent.
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And my back up team are still eagerly engaged on the quest. So, I ought to mention that NSW BDM births using asterisk * for surname and limiting event date 30 Apr 1893 to 1 May 1893 brings up many whose rego numbers seem to include 1926 or 1927 etc.... those are likely formal birth registrations recognising adoptions - the back up team are checking with some other Old Boys from NSW bdm....
But at present they are still going through indexes looking for possible siblings for Albert. They are not impressed with the Guardian of Minors effort on the 1912 m.c.
JM.
They are in indeed a wonder team!
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Beyond wonder ,there’s enough here to write a novel I am amazed by you all :) :) :)
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Hi
I am not sure of your relationship to Albert, but if he is your direct line, you may consider transcriptions of one certificate or another to help verify his parentage.
JM and her knowledgeable team will have better advice, but when the elderly Edward FULLER died at Parramatta, his parents names were known by the informant. One wonders what else his certificate may hold.
Completely filled out a death certificate in NSW should show
Name
Date
Death place
Age
Occupation
Cause of death
Parents' names
Spouse names
Marriage details
Chns names
No of chn
Birthplace
Just a thought anyhow.
Sue
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Yes, and the recorded informant's name, address and relationship to deceased may well be hospital staff BUT could be a family member. ....
So burials in that era .... could not happen to until a pro forma burial order and cause of death establiahed or inquest set and so the responsibility of funeral director included obtaining family history about deceased .... sadly the hospital staff at destitute asylums would have the routine in focus when admitting patients.
But do NOT order from NSWBDM ...
I am on e reader at present. Sue, may I ask you to post live link to transcription agents for NSW . .. there's a thread on NSW resources, I think Jenn did it up. Thanks, :D
JM
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I am not a direct descendant but the informant was his son . Albert’s parents listed as Edward &
Helen Daves . Died at Royal Prince Alfred hospital. It does not list child from first marriage just his son as informant. Age 82 Electrical engineer widower.
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I am not a direct descendan t but the informant was his son . Albert’s parents listed as Edward &
Helen Daves . Died at Royal Prince Alfred hospital. It does not list child from first marriage just his son as informant. Age 82 Electrical engineer widower.
That would be Albert. :)
I may have misunderstood, but I was suggesting obtaining official transcription of the chap Sue has highlighted, Edward at Parramatta... it may be that that registration has Albert noted as his son and even better if noted as informant.... :)
JM.
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Yes,
It is the DC of Edward FULLER in Parramatta that I was suggesting as a purchase
As you say JM, it may contain answers.
Sue
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Should I get the edward jg 1910 or Edward 1911 or both?
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Should I get the edward jg 1910 or Edward 1911 or both?
If given the plastic card, I would just order one, and then only as an official transcription, not as a real deal certificate
It is reference 7101/1911.
BUT wait for Sue to reply.
JM
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Edward Fuller,Sawyer p.o.d Hospital for The insane Parramatta Age:69
Wife :Ada Sherrington
Children :no issue
Born: Castle hill
Parents: Edward Fuller , Elizabeth Moorehead
Informant hospital superintendent.
Edward appears to be in a paupers grave at Rookwood
I wonder if Albert may have be an illegitimate child ?I still can’t find any record of a Helen Daves/Davis . This Edward as you mentioned before appears to be the only Sawyer in Sydney at that time .
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Is this a possibility for his birth?
Bertie A A Davis, son of Thomas and Hellen, 30 April 1893, Sydney (found on NSW birth index by date search)
As far as I can tell, there are no other children with parents Thomas Davis and Hellen/Helen in NSW.
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Still looking at the purported father of Albert, Edward FULLER, whose DC you have purchased and posted for us to see ;D,
The mother's name was MOORE ( not Moorehead I think)
The parents of this man were married in 1836. They became a significant family in the Castle Hill district with many news items referring to them.
188/1836 V1836188 20
FULLER Edward
MOORE Elizabeth S
CB
Edward FULLER died in 1853 rather suddenly.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12943707
"In the will of Edward FULLER 1853
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229115566
Elizabeth remarried and became Mrs BLACK of 'Devontry' Parramatta and died aged 86 years.
1908 lengthy obituary for Elizabeth BLACK. States 3 of her seven chn from the first marriage had pre-deceased her. No son Edward mentioned at all ::)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/85985497
On the death certificate you have provided for Edward FULLER-
The wife of Edward is named.
The parents and place of birth are named.
On the marriage certificate to Ada SHERVINGTON it states Edward’s father was deceased at that time
All corroborating evidence that this is the correct Edward FULLER.
Sue
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Thankyou sooo much Sue . I hope when I can access the Dependant children registers when Albert was Fostered to the Chapman’s it will reveal both parents names and confirm for sure.
I really appreciate all your help and guidance.
Many thanks again
Kat
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Hi,
Fingers crossed, I may have found a DAVIS connection. I am not yet certain. I will type up some info tomorrow or Monday once I have checked the source ...
JM
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Hi,
Fingers crossed, I may have found a DAVIS connection. I am not yet certain. I will type up some info tomorrow or Monday once I have checked the source ...
JM
I rarely look at online trees, but I had noticed one that was very detailed, with NSW BDM supporting documents etc. It had a lass Sarah Emma CURTIS was born in 1834 in NSW and she seems to have married a Frederick DAVIS in 1866 and among their daughters was a lass named Helen born 1877. That Sarah Emma CURTIS was noted as the daughter of a Sarah Ann FULLER, who in turn was the daughter of Edward and Elizabeth (aka Bridget) FULLER, of Dural NSW.
So I have diligently followed through the details on that tree…. Thinking …. Helen DAVIS …. Albert FULLER’s d.c. I have not been able to progress passed the above….
Sorry, but I am disappointing you ...
JM
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Don’t be silly you have been amazing I think we have the correct Edward Fuller & I think the microfiche records of foster children will reveal the answers .
Thankyou for all your efforts hugely appreciated
Cheers
KAT
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So I have diligently followed through the details on that tree…. Thinking …. Helen DAVIS …. Albert FULLER’s d.c. I have not been able to progress passed the above….
Sorry, but I am disappointing you ...
JM
I cannot see evidence to support the relationships set out on that tree.
However it was definitely worth the follow up.
Sue