RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Markly Darkly on Saturday 06 March 21 11:32 GMT (UK)
-
We are struggling to find a family in the 1901 census - Francis Robert Parsons (b 1867) and Alice Parsons (b 1875), one child at least, Gladys would have been born c 1900. We have them on the 1911 census but that is all. Can anyone help please?
-
To give us some clue where in England he may be ;D
PARSONS, GLADYS MAY mmn PILLAR
GRO Reference: 1899 Sept qtr Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 303
PARSONS, FRANCIS WILLIAM mmn PILLAR
GRO Reference: 1901 J Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 333
-
RG13
Piece number 59
Folio 161
Page 44
91, Cassidy Road, Fulham
Frank Parsons 30 bn Aldershot, Hampshire
Alice Parsons 24 bn Fulham, Middlesex
Nellie Parsons Dtr 6 bn Fulham
May Parsons Dtr 1 bn Fulham
-
Marriage took place
1894 Fulham
Francis Robert Parsons
to
Alice Pillar
Louisa Maud
-
91, Cassidy Road, Fulham
Frank Parsons 30 bn Aldershot, Hampshire
Alice Parsons 24 bn Fulham, Middlesex
Nellie Parsons Dtr 6 bn Fulham
May Parsons Dtr 1 bn Fulham
Daughter Gladys has middle name May
-
PARSONS, NELLIE mmn PILLAR
GRO Reference: 1895 J Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 319
-
Hi,
Looking at the 1911 Census. On the right it gives clues to records.
None showing for 1901 on any of the names.
Looks like it's missing.
Maggsie
-
They were living next door to
James Pillar 26 bn Fulham
Eliza Pillar (mother) 72 bn Earls Court
Eliza Clayton 45 bn Essex
RG13 / 59 Folio 161 Page 44
Cassidy Road, Fulham
-
So where is Gladys?
Maggsie
-
They were living next door to
James Pillar 26 bn Fulham
Eliza Pillar (mother) 72 bn Earls Court
Eliza Clayton 45 bn Essex
RG13 / 59 Folio 161 Page 44
Cassidy Road, Fulham
Make sense - Elizabeth is Alice's mother and James her brother
-
Gladys is shown as May, her second d Christian name
LM
-
They were living next door to
James Pillar 26 bn Fulham
Eliza Pillar (mother) 72 bn Earls Court
Eliza Clayton 45 bn Essex
RG13 / 59 Folio 161 Page 44
Cassidy Road, Fulham
Make sense - Elizabeth is Alice's mother and James her brother
Are you happy that I have found your Francis / Frank and family in 1901 then :-\
-
Do you mean me? Yes, good on you.
Maggsie
-
No I did not mean you, I was replying to the post of Markly Darkly and just wondered if they were happy we had the right family.
-
Yes - thank you for your help (and all those others that answered)
The big question now is what happened to Francis. Apparently he ran off around 1920. None of the children know where he went. There is a rumour of him dying in Islngton workhouse in 1948 but I am not sure it has been proved that is the right one. Wondering if the 1921 census might reveal something.
They were living next door to
James Pillar 26 bn Fulham
Eliza Pillar (mother) 72 bn Earls Court
Eliza Clayton 45 bn Essex
RG13 / 59 Folio 161 Page 44
Cassidy Road, Fulham
Make sense - Elizabeth is Alice's mother and James her brother
Are you happy that I have found your Francis / Frank and family in 1901 then :-\
-
He served in WW1 but was discharged 1916 no longer medically fit.
There is a Francis Parsons on the 1939 register in Islington that would fit that 1948 death. Possibly this person
Births Dec qtr 1867
Parsons Francis
Islington 1b 247
-
Have you eliminated this one :-\
Death Jun qtr 1933
Parsons Francis Robert
age 65
Bournemouth 2b 785
If he had left then c1920 there is a good chance that his wife would not know if he had died. I will see what else I can find on this
-
Marriage Jun qtr 1926
Parsons Francis R
Rabbitts Florence L
Poole 5a 688
Maybe
Birth Dec qtr 1889
Rabbitts Florence Lucy Long
Wimborne 5a 269
A possibility for a widowed Florence in 1939 Poole area
-
Hi Rosie - thank you - no its not him - we have seen this death certificate and he is down as a Coal Porter and dying in Islington workhouse. That same gentleman is in the workhouse in 1911, whilst our Francis is at home with Alice
He served in WW1 but was discharged 1916 no longer medically fit.
There is a Francis Parsons on the 1939 register in Islington that would fit that 1948 death. Possibly this person
Births Dec qtr 1867
Parsons Francis
Islington 1b 247
-
Hmmm - this one looks interesting. Thank you
Have you eliminated this one :-\
Death Jun qtr 1933
Parsons Francis Robert
age 65
Bournemouth 2b 785
If he had left then c1920 there is a good chance that his wife would not know if he had died. I will see what else I can find on this
-
Hi Rosie - thank you - no its not him - we have seen this death certificate and he is down as a Coal Porter and dying in Islington workhouse. That same gentleman is in the workhouse in 1911, whilst our Francis is at home with Alice
He served in WW1 but was discharged 1916 no longer medically fit.
There is a Francis Parsons on the 1939 register in Islington that would fit that 1948 death. Possibly this person
Births Dec qtr 1867
Parsons Francis
Islington 1b 247
Sorry I am confused.
You have the death certificate that states he was a coal porter. The 1911 Islington workhouse Francis has that occupation and when he appears on the 1939 register he has retired. I have suggested that it is not your Francis who died in 1948 but the one showing in the workhouse 1911 and later but you are saying that is not right. Have I got that wrong.
-
Hi Rosie - thank you - no its not him - we have seen this death certificate and he is down as a Coal Porter and dying in Islington workhouse. That same gentleman is in the workhouse in 1911, whilst our Francis is at home with Alice
He served in WW1 but was discharged 1916 no longer medically fit.
There is a Francis Parsons on the 1939 register in Islington that would fit that 1948 death. Possibly this person
Births Dec qtr 1867
Parsons Francis
Islington 1b 247
Sorry I am confused.
You have the death certificate that states he was a coal porter. The 1911 Islington workhouse Francis has that occupation and when he appears on the 1939 register he has retired. I have suggested that it is not your Francis who died in 1948 but the one showing in the workhouse 1911 and later but you are saying that is not right. Have I got that wrong.
This is what I have. In the 1911 census, we have:
a) Our Francis Parsons living with Alice and children
b) Francis Parsons - a coal porter living in Islington workhouse
The Francis Parsons you have as dying in 1948 has him described as a coal porter on his death certificate and dying in Islington workhouse
Hence, the one you found dying in 1948 is b), not a)
Hope that makes sense ?? :)
-
Thank you, that is what my earlier reply was suggesting ie the 1948 death was not your Francis.
What do you think about the Bournemouth death / Marriage. Divorce at that time would have been expensive and he would not have been the first person to leave their husband / wife and marry someone else even though they were still married to someone else.
-
We have just ordered that marriage certificate to see if it gives us any clues. Would I be right in saying that he will have signed the 1911 census himself and also we will see his signature on the marriage certificate? If yes, then a match might be helpful?
-
Looking at that 1911 I would say that he probably did complete and sign that form himself.
Only problem is if you have ordered the marriage certificate from the GRO it will be a copy of the 'copy' sent to them from the church/registrar office so will not have his signature on it.
I do hope it is him, please let me know when you get it.
-
Thank you. I guess hopefully it will say who his father is.
Yes, I'll let you know
-
Fingers crossed :)
-
91, Cassidy Road, Fulham
Frank Parsons 30 bn Aldershot, Hampshire
Alice Parsons 24 bn Fulham, Middlesex
Nellie Parsons Dtr 6 bn Fulham
May Parsons Dtr 1 bn Fulham
Daughter Gladys has middle name May
PARSONS, NELLIE mmn PILLAR
GRO Reference: 1895 J Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 319
Is this Nellie’s marriage?
Marriage 20 Aug 1917 St John the Evangelist, East Dulwich, Southwark
Nellie Parsons age 22, clerk, 20 Muschamp Road
Father: Francis Robert Parsons, Soldier
Spouse: John Percival Saggers
Nellie Saggers age 95
Birth 17 May 1895
Registration Date: Nov 1990
Maidstone Kent Volume: 16 Page: 1416
Marriage took place
1894 Fulham
Francis Robert Parsons
to
Alice Pillar
Not sure if you have their marriage detail apologies if I’m duplicating
12 Aug 1894 St James, Fulham, Hammersmith and Fulham
Francis Robert Parsons, 25, labourer
Father: Samuel Parsons deceased engineman
Spouse: Alice Piller
Both signed their names
Francis Robert Parsons Age: 44, packer
Document Year: 1915
Residence Place: 2 North St, Fulham S W
Regimental Number: 71175
Regiment Name: Army Service Corps
Form Title: Short Service Attestation
Number of Images: 14
Next of kin wife Alice
Children - no date of birth given
William
Violet
Edwin
Charles
Arthur
Possible birth entries
PARSONS, FRANCIS WILLIAM PILLAR
1901 J Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 333
PARSONS, VIOLET PILLAR
1904 M Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 400
PARSONS, EDWIN ROBERT PILLAR
1906 D Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 306
PARSONS, CHARLES RICHARD PILLAR
1912 S Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 169
PARSONS, ARTHUR PILLAR
1914 S Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 179
Francis mother Matilda Parsons with the family 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW52-NJ6
This record is available to view on Fold3
Francis Robert Parsons
Record Type: Card
Residence Place: London
Service Number: 302492, W.r.328995, T4/071175
Corps, Regiment or Unit: R. E., R. A. S. C.
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description: Other Ranks Survived
Reference Number: 11/M/92802
-
Looking at that 1911 I would say that he probably did complete and sign that form himself.
Only problem is if you have ordered the marriage certificate from the GRO it will be a copy of the 'copy' sent to them from the church/registrar office so will not have his signature on it.
His signature also appears on his army record so you could compare signature with 1911 census
-
Thank you Ladyhawk for all of that info
-
For info. London, England Electoral Registers 1832 - 1965
address 2 North Street
Years 1914/15
Francis Robert Parsons
Years 1918/19/20
Francis Robert Parsons
Alice Parsons
Year 1924
Francis Robert Parsons
Alice Parsons
William Francis Parsons
and he is not with
Alice Parsons and William Francis Parsons
Year 1926
so the 1926 marriage entry that rosie99 posted reply 17 could well him.
I didn't ask if you could access the Army record so you could compare his signatures so just in case you can't I've added them here along with his signature from his 1894 marriage to Alice
-
Just adding to Ladyhawks post, sometimes people were left on electoral registers even though they were no longer living there so he could have left Alice earlier than indicated by the ER dates.
-
Thank you both. OK, marriage certificate hopefully here by the end of the week. If that doesn't help, would that possible. Death certificate in 1933 in Poole be helpful?
-
A death certificate would normally have the following information
When & Where died
Name & Surname
Sex
Age
Occupation
Cause of Death
Signature, Description and Residence of Informant
Where Registered
Signature of Registrar
-
Oh dear. Our Robert Francis Parsons had father by the name Samuel, deceased, train driver. The marriage certificate for the one in 1926 has a father George, a stonemason. Unless Robert was telling fibs on his second marriage, it's not him.
-
Have you located Francis Robert Parsons on census prior to his first marriage
-
Yes, 1871, born Farnham Surrey, same as in 1911 census when he is with Alice and father is Samuel
-
Do you have his birth certificate as his date of birth could help if he was still alive in 1939.
PARSONS, FRANCIS ROBERT mmn RANDELL
GRO Reference: 1867 Dec Quarter in FARNHAM Volume 02A Page 84
His father Samuel died in 1875 age 41, he was a Labourer on the 1871 census. In 1881 he was with his widowed mother. Samuels occupation of Engineman on his marriage could be invented as he may not have remembered what he did for a living.
If he had deserted his wife for someone else then there is every possibility he would make up information when marrying again. I certainly would not dismiss that marriage without trying to see original signatures
-
Do you have his birth certificate as his date of birth could help if he was still alive in 1939.
PARSONS, FRANCIS ROBERT mmn RANDELL
GRO Reference: 1867 Dec Quarter in FARNHAM Volume 02A Page 84
6 Jul 1862 Chertsey, St Peter
Samuel Parsons age 27, labourer, London St
father James, labourer
Matilda R?ndell age 28
father Robert Randell occ ? Service
both single
there is this possible earlier marriage for Samuel - I think signatures look similar - see attachment to compare
19 Jan 1856 Farnham, St Andrew
Samuel Parsons age 20, labourer, Hungry Hill
father James, labourer
Mary Ann Charlton Illeg. age 20
father James Gunner, labourer
His father Samuel died in 1875 age 41, he was a Labourer on the 1871 census.
Samuel Parsons age 41, labourer
Burial 21 Sep 1875 Farnham, St Andrew, Surrey
Place where death occurred: Farnham Union
Grave no 239, consecrated
-
Do you have his birth certificate as his date of birth could help if he was still alive in 1939.
PARSONS, FRANCIS ROBERT mmn RANDELL
GRO Reference: 1867 Dec Quarter in FARNHAM Volume 02A Page 84
His father Samuel died in 1875 age 41, he was a Labourer on the 1871 census. In 1881 he was with his widowed mother. Samuels occupation of Engineman on his marriage could be invented as he may not have remembered what he did for a living.
If he had deserted his wife for someone else then there is every possibility he would make up information when marrying again. I certainly would not dismiss that marriage without trying to see original signatures
Just adding, I mean the 1926 Francis Robert Parsons marriage (Sorry, I was not very clear)
-
Do you have his birth certificate as his date of birth could help if he was still alive in 1939.
PARSONS, FRANCIS ROBERT mmn RANDELL
GRO Reference: 1867 Dec Quarter in FARNHAM Volume 02A Page 84
His father Samuel died in 1875 age 41, he was a Labourer on the 1871 census. In 1881 he was with his widowed mother. Samuels occupation of Engineman on his marriage could be invented as he may not have remembered what he did for a living.
If he had deserted his wife for someone else then there is every possibility he would make up information when marrying again. I certainly would not dismiss that marriage without trying to see original signatures
Just adding, I mean the 1926 Francis Robert Parsons marriage (Sorry, I was not very clear)
:) No need to be sorry Rosie I realised after I posted signatures details and re-read that you were referring to FRP signature on the possible 1926 marriage (as you mentioned previously on the thread) can modify my post if I've confused matters!
-
Oh dear. Our Robert Francis Parsons had father by the name Samuel, deceased, train driver.
The marriage certificate for the one in 1926 has a father George, a stonemason.
Unless Robert was telling fibs on his second marriage, it's not him.
What occupation, age and address did it give for this Robert Francis?
Who witnessed the marriage?
EDIT to add
Markly Darkly I also forgot to ask
What was Robert's marital status on m/c and where did the marriage take place
Comparing the signature from 1926 m/c do you think it's similar to the ones posted on your thread?
By asking all these questions I'm hoping that maybe we might be able to help further :)
-
For some reasons I have Francis Robert's birth as 23rd September 1867, but I don't know where I got that from. Poor record keeping on my part ☹️