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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: devondaenys on Sunday 07 March 21 21:28 GMT (UK)
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Desperately looking for my great-great-grandpa Robert Cole. This mystery has lasted generations: my great uncle even went to visit Robert's wife's relatives in Ireland, and returned empty handed. Said uncle, who passed away 8 yrs ago, named his (living) son Robert too... I have to finally solve this!
Robert Cole emigrated in 1883. He was born in Ireland in 1863, but the earliest record we've found him on is the 1891 Canadian census (Toronto). He married Mary Anne Crawford in 1896. She arrived in 1894 from Fermanagh, and they had 5 kids. He died in 1936.
According to Rob's marriage certificate, he was born in Tip. But according to his son's marriage certificate, Rob was born in Cork. Rob's parents are 'George & Ann' on his marriage certificate; but on his death certificate they're 'George Cole & Francis Pearsy'.
For months on end, I've searched... there's no sign of a Robert Cole, associated with George + Francis OR George + Anne, existing anywhere in Ireland between 1860 & 1883. If I didn't have his shillelagh, I'd be looking to other countries.
If anyone has ANY knowledge, ideas or advice, I'd be so grateful!
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what religion was this family ?
without knowing a location it could be difficult as there are no clues as to which church this family might have attended, the records may not be online, or may not have survived
There are about 7 George Cole entries on Griffith's valuation, most in Ulster but two in county Tipperary in Corbally parish c1864, might be worth focusing on this area to check record availability.
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The information that George supplied for his marriage is likely to be more accurate than details on his death certificate.
Civil registration of births & deaths didn't start until 1864. Registration of Catholic marriages also in 1864 but non-Catholic marriages from 1845.
Any occupation for Robert's father?
George, son of George Cole & Ann Mills, born Cork (father a soldier)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRM8-T6J
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03062/2122576.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1876/020590/7224458.pdf
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Rob's parents are 'George & Ann' on his marriage certificate; but on his death certificate they're 'George Cole & Francis Pearsy'.
Francis is a male name, Frances is female and is interchangeable with Fanny and Ann. According to census records he was Presbyterian.
Debra :)
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Here's the Toronto death cert for Robert Cole. It originally said Don't know for his mother. Frances Pearsy has then been written.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-Y3S5-32Y
There's another York, Toronto death.
24 August 1920
Frances Brooks
Age 61
Born Ireland
Father George Cole
Mother Mary Ann Piercy
Both born Ireland
Informant R G Brooks, Son
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DKR9-X1Z
Is there a connection? :-\
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I believe they are the people he was boarding with in 1891.
https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?app=Census1891&op=img&id=30953_148174-00657
Debra :)
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Well done
Thomas John Brooks + Frances Cole marriage in 1883 in Toronto
Her parents George Cole and Ann
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-Y39G-2V6
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Witnesses Robert Cole and Margaret Hall of Toronto.
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My gosh, look at all of you doing in a couple hours what us Coles haven't been able to do for 50 years! I'm my whole family (myself included of course) will be impressed, ecstatic and eternally grateful!!
I was very new to genealogy when I started looking for Robert (I'm only 21, by the way)... I suppose I formed some assumptions then, which stuck in the back of my mind and narrowed my search unnecessarily. For example, I never really examined those listed around Robert on his census: though I've known that's a strategy for awhile now, I didn't in the beginning, and became convinced Robert must've been the only member of his family in Toronto around that time (since no familial relationships were explicitly stated anywhere).
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I believe they are the people he was boarding with in 1891.
https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?app=Census1891&op=img&id=30953_148174-00657
Debra :)
... My gosh, there it is. Cannot BELIEVE I didn't notice that (though I explained what likely left me so oblivious in my general reply- sort of a "can't see the forest for the trees" situation). I also had no idea Ann could be short for Frances, that simple tidbit would've made a huge difference. And oops, I did misspell Francis in my original post. I've had a bad habit of mixing up the male and female spellings throughout my research :-X
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Rob's parents are 'George & Ann' on his marriage certificate; but on his death certificate they're 'George Cole & Francis Pearsy'.
Francis is a male name, Frances is female and is interchangeable with Fanny and Ann. According to census records he was Presbyterian.
Debra :)
I've never see Ann and Frances used interchangeably in Ireland.
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what religion was this family ?
without knowing a location it could be difficult as there are no clues as to which church this family might have attended, the records may not be online, or may not have survived
There are about 7 George Cole entries on Griffith's valuation, most in Ulster but two in county Tipperary in Corbally parish c1864, might be worth focusing on this area to check record availability.
This would've been my first question here too honestly- and yes, I am uncomfortably aware of how central that was (still is in some cases) to Irish identity. The reason I never mentioned religion initially was because I didn't want to eliminate any possibilities, however unorthodox (ex. Robert choosing to leave his family's religion behind when he emigrated, for whatever reason). From what I know about my Cole family in Canada, everyone from the past 3 generations has been pretty much the polar opposite of spiritual... so if Robert turned out to be less personally attached to his church than most people of his time, it wouldn't have surprised me.
He is down as Presbyterian on most documents though, and broad family knowledge (which goes far beyond the Coles specifically and includes our other Irish sides) suggests there are absolutely no Catholics anywhere.
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Here's the Toronto death cert for Robert Cole. It originally said Don't know for his mother. Frances Pearsy has then been written.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-Y3S5-32Y
There's another York, Toronto death.
24 August 1920
Frances Brooks
Age 61
Born Ireland
Father George Cole
Mother Mary Ann Piercy
Both born Ireland
Informant R G Brooks, Son
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DKR9-X1Z
Is there a connection? :-\
I keep getting tied up in stuff today, and have yet to *properly* dive in and start the real sleuthing... but from my initial read-through of these records, and others which follow the same trail that have since been shared here, I'm extremely optimistic that this may be it! Thanks again to you and everyone else- I will be back with updates, and probably more thanks to pass along from other Coles after a family phone call later tonight.
And to anyone who's contribution I have yet to respond to: I promise I WILL get to you eventually, hang tight :)
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The information that George supplied for his marriage is likely to be more accurate than details on his death certificate.
Civil registration of births & deaths didn't start until 1864. Registration of Catholic marriages also in 1864 but non-Catholic marriages from 1845.
Any occupation for Robert's father?
George, son of George Cole & Ann Mills, born Cork (father a soldier)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRM8-T6J
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1876/03062/2122576.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1876/020590/7224458.pdf
Hmm... I have considered the possibility that Robert's legal first name was not actually Robert, and perhaps it was one of those families where they middle names. In this case, I would actually be trying to find a 'George' or 'William' (Robert's first son was named William George). This George seems a bit too young to be Robert, unfortunately... but perhaps a sibling, or even a cousin? Either way, thank you so much for helping- I will certainly save these links somewhere!
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I THINK I FOUND THE COLE FAMILY IN IRELAND!!!
Will take a little while to type it all up but the clues were in Ontario records.
Firstly, want to start with confusion over name of Robert Cole's mother. His death certificate gives mother as Frances but I think this is incorrect. Robert's sister was called Frances and since Robert's children would never have met their grandparents perhaps though Aunt Frances named after their grandmother (again, I have never hear of Ann and Frances being used interchangeably in Ireland).
Now, the cemetery register for burial of Frances Brook (nee Cole) lists her birthplace as Timonly, Ireland. Devondaenys is that not your online tree that shows this record already?
No such place as 'Timonly' but I did find TIMONEY in Co. Tipperary. The Poor Law Union/Registration district for Timoney is Roscrea so I concentrated searches for Coles there.
This death looks promising for Robert's father- widower, age 70 (born c1812), informant son Sam Cole-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06412/48
41598.pdf
From there I searched further and was able to build a small tree-
George Cole (c1812-20 Jan.1882 Collawn, Roscrea Parish), farmer, m. _ (d.bef.1882)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06412/4841598.pdf
1. Samuel “Sam” Cole (c1848 Co.Tipperary-9 Aug.1924 Coolawn) m.(19 Nov.1889 R.C.) Sarah Stapleton (alive 1924)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10751/5920938.pdf (groom Timoney)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Timoney/Cullaun/824644/ (even though marriage was in R.C. Church it was likely mixed marriage as only Sarah & children listed as R.C.)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Timoney/Cullaun/1703157/
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1924/05029/4375222.pdf
a. Richard Cole (30 Nov.1890 Timoney-aft.1911)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02399/1894572.pdf
b. Mary Cole (11 Aug.1893 Collawn-aft.1911)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02282/1856666.pdf
c. Samuel Cole (7 Aug.1899 Timoney-aft.1911)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02018/1774499.pdf
Going by George's age and age of son Samuel it's entirely possible that George Cole was married before the start of civil registration of marriages in Ireland which would explain why marruage hasn't bee found.
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Some geographical notes:
Timoney townland-
https://www.townlands.ie/tipperary/ikerrin/corbally/timoney/timoney/
Roscrea is the PLU (Poor Law Union) & Registration District – registration district covers parts of Tipperary & Queens
Cullaun is an adjoining neighbouring townland-
https://www.townlands.ie/tipperary/ikerrin/corbally/timoney/cullaun/
Note: Collawn (George Cole’s death), Coolawn (Samuel Cole’s death) & Cullaun (1901 & 1911 census) same place. Timoney in census is the D.E.D. (District Electoral Division)
It's possible the family either didn't move very far or didn't move at all. The Valuation Revision Books should show any changes.
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I THINK I FOUND THE COLE FAMILY IN IRELAND!!!
Will take a little while to type it all up but the clues were in Ontario records.
Firstly, want to start with confusion over name of Robert Cole's mother. His death certificate gives mother as Frances but I think this is incorrect. Robert's sister was called Frances and since Robert's children would never have met their grandparents perhaps though Aunt Frances named after their grandmother (again, I have never hear of Ann and Frances being used interchangeably in Ireland).
Now, the cemetery register for burial of Frances Brook (nee Cole) lists her birthplace as Timonly, Ireland. Devondaenys is that not your online tree that shows this record already?
No such place as 'Timonly' but I did find TIMONEY in Co. Tipperary. The Poor Law Union/Registration district for Timoney is Roscrea so I concentrated searches for Coles there.
This death looks promising for Robert's father- widower, age 70 (born c1812), informant son Sam Cole-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06412/48
41598.pdf
From there I searched further and was able to build a small tree-
George Cole (c1812-20 Jan.1882 Collawn, Roscrea Parish), farmer, m. _ (d.bef.1882)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1882/06412/4841598.pdf
1. Samuel “Sam” Cole (c1848 Co.Tipperary-9 Aug.1924 Coolawn) m.(19 Nov.1889 R.C.) Sarah Stapleton (alive 1924)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10751/5920938.pdf (groom Timoney)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Timoney/Cullaun/824644/ (even though marriage was in R.C. Church it was likely mixed marriage as only Sarah & children listed as R.C.)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Timoney/Cullaun/1703157/
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1924/05029/4375222.pdf
a. Richard Cole (30 Nov.1890 Timoney-aft.1911)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1891/02399/1894572.pdf
b. Mary Cole (11 Aug.1893 Collawn-aft.1911)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1893/02282/1856666.pdf
c. Samuel Cole (7 Aug.1899 Timoney-aft.1911)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1899/02018/1774499.pdf
Going by George's age and age of son Samuel it's entirely possible that George Cole was married before the start of civil registration of marriages in Ireland which would explain why marruage hasn't bee found.
Wow, what amazing work you've done there! This is so incredibly generous of you, thanks so much :)
I've spent the better part of today following up on everything you've gathered here. First of all, yes, you're right, Frances was Robert's sister who also immigrated to Toronto, likely little while before him. Mary Ann likely mixed up the names on Robert's death certificate, and misspelled Rob's mom's maiden name.
I recently noticed an inconsistency in records from within Rob's lifetime, which may be significant: he is 29 on the 1891 census... and 29 AGAIN on his marriage certificate, 4 years later! So he either lied to his 19 year old wife Mary Ann about his age, making himself younger-- OR he had reason to lie about his age as a teenage immigrant, making himself older (20, to be exact).
Currently, I'm hunting for any recorded connection between the people/names I'm pretty much certain are a connection (Frances Cole/Brooks, Mary Ann Piercy/Cole) and this Tirmoney family you've found for me... fingers crossed! I do, however, have one real concern here: I came across a Robert Cole in the Roscrea registry, born in 1867 to a Mary Cole. This excited me, since it could very well fit the bill. Until I noticed a matching death record, suggesting this Robert died in infancy a year later.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on any of this :)
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I saw the birth of Robert Cole illegitimate son of Mary Cole.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03474/2276289.pdf
I also found a death for Mary Cole 'of Cullawn' age 70 in 1921 (born c1851).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1922/05078/4393248.pdf
Looking for her in 1901 and 1911 census brings up this possibility with unmarried brothers James & Michael but the family are Catholic-
? http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Tubrid/Poulaculleare/1708838/ (Mary 50, James 44, Michael 38)
? http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Tubbrid/Poulaculleare/814167/ (Mary 50, James 47, Ml 40)
I'm wondering of Robert Cole's mother died when he was very young in which case he might have been raised by older siblings.