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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: andgalcas on Monday 08 March 21 17:27 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone
I am hoping someone may be able to help me or also be looking for information on this particular family. Family legend was always that my great great grandmother Ellen Cunningham was from a gypsy/traveller family that lived/travelled in a caravan and mended pots and pans for a living. I have managed to find some information on the family but can't get any further back than Ellen's parents.
Ellen's parents / my ggg grandparents were James Cunningham b. 1855 (approx) and Jane Lindsay b. 1863 (approx). Their birth places varied from census to census however the most common place they listed as their birthplace was Edinburgh, Scotland. I have been unable to find a marriage certificate for them in England or Scotland. They first appear on the 1881 census.
1881 - Living in Hartlepool with their daughter Jane and a George Lindsay (aged 10) possibly Jane's brother/relative?
1891 - Living in South Shields, Durham with their 4 daughters. Birth places somewhat correct.
1901 - Jane is in South Shields with 3 daughters. No sign of James. Birthplaces incorrect.
1911 - Jane widowed, living in South Shields with 2 of her daughters. Birthplaces incorrect.
On the 1911 census is states that Jane had 15 children but only 6 were still living.
I have managed to trace the following births from the 15:
Jane Cunningham born 1880 in Sunderland, Durham (I have BC)
Margaret 'Meg' Cunningham 1882 Musselburgh, East Lothian (can't find birth certificate)
Rebecca Cunningham 1885 Mold, Wales (I have BC)
James Cunningham 1888 Ormskirk, Lancashire (I have BC)
John Cunningham 1890 South Shields, Durham (I have BC)
Ellen Cunningham 1891 Berwick, Borders (I have BC) (My GG grandmother)
James Cunningham 1893 South Shields (I have BC)
Isabella 'Bella' Cunningham 1895 South Shields (I have BC)
Mary Elizabeth Cunningham 1899 South Shields (I have BC)
James' (b1855) occupation changed all the time on the certificates/census' too, sometimes he was a labourer, umbrella maker, hawker, hawker of hardware and it looks like the family were forever on the move although their travels don't seem to follow a pattern.
I'm tried to do some research on Scottish travellers/gypsys but the Cunningham/Lindsay surnames don't appear to show up. I would really like to try and get another generation back but I am struggling. Can anyone suggest how I could do that? Was it normal for married couples not to have an actual marriage certificate? Can anyone shed any light on the places they travelled to (where their children were born). Are they usual places that were travelled to enroute to somewhere else that I could look at for further birth / possible marriage records?
Any advice greatly appreciated - Thanks in advance!
Andrew
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Is it possible with all their travelling they forgot who was born where?
A possible, same area where Jane was born 1880?
Margaret Cunningham 1882 Sunderland, Durham, England
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2XVG-JFN
Annie
Add...On checking GRO, not your Margaret!
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A possible?
Musselburgh not too far for someone travelling a lot :-\
CUNNINGHAM MARGARET - 1882 - 685/1 860 St George (Midlothian)
You may of course find the above with other parents on 1891 census or may have died?
Annie
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Researching travelling families is a work of art, they were very suspicious of authority and often gave wrong information on YOB of POB, if in fact they ever knew it.
I've been researching this area for years, PM me and I'll point you in the right direction
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Researching travelling families is a work of art, they were very suspicious of authority and often gave wrong information on YOB of POB, if in fact they ever knew it.
I've been researching this area for years, PM me and I'll point you in the right direction
Is there a reason for not being able to post to the thread any help "in the right direction" which may benefit many?
After all, those people will be long gone i.e. no 'living person' issues?
Annie
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1881 - Living in Hartlepool with their daughter Jane and a George Lindsay (aged 10) possibly Jane's brother/relative?
Where was George said to have been born & have you tried to locate a BC or any other info. on him to determine whether he was related in any way?
What was he listed as on the census e.g. visitor or other?
Annie
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There's no reason, I was just giving you the option in case you preferred it.
Cunningham is definitely a Travelling family name in the area you mention.
They intermarried often into my ancestors
Researching them isn't easy, but once you understand their lives it does get easier.
Most lived a semi-nomadic sort of life, traveling roughly April to October and wintering with family and/or other travelers in houses barns outbuildings, or tents.
Children were born on the road but baptised in churches they liked. Often several years would go by before they were baptised. This is the reason why later when they appear on census you get discrepancies. Generally speaking, they were all baptised, you just have to find them. If you know when they were baptised you can research matkets that were on at that time of year and loo in parishes around them.
Marriages aren't quite as easy to find but generally, they are there somewhere. Northern travelling people preferred to marry at places like Gretna Green. There were around 20 different places along the Scottish borders where these irregular marriages took place, unfortunately not many are easily available.
Another important thing to remember is the vast majority were illiterate. When you search their names, try as many different spellings as you can, this often gets results.
The Cunninghams were well-known scallywags, I would almost bet you'll find info in newspapers, criminal records, etc.
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Sorry I forgot to mention
If you haven't found it already
A James Cunningham married a Jane Lindsay on 1st June 1855
At Corstophine Midlothian
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1881 - Living in Hartlepool with their daughter Jane and a George Lindsay (aged 10) possibly Jane's brother/relative?
Where was George said to have been born & have you tried to locate a BC or any other info. on him to determine whether he was related in any way?
What was he listed as on the census e.g. visitor or other?
Annie
Hi Annie
The 1881 Census shows the following:
25 Cleveland Street, Hartlepool
James Cunningham lodger married 26 Shipyard Labourer born in Scotland
Jane Cunningham lodger married 24 born in Scotland
Jane Cunningham lodger 11 months born Sunderland
George Lindsay lodger 11 Scholar born Scotland
I've tried to find anything that links a George and Jane Lindsay in England or Scotland. Also tried looking at George Lindsays born in Scotland and living in England in later census'. I just can't seem to find that connection.
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Hi All
I have made somewhat of a breakthrough and found James Cunningham and Jane Lindsay's marriage certificate. They were married on the 9th July 1888 in St Lukes Church, Great Crosby, Lancashire. As far as I'm aware neither had any connection to the area and the two witnesses were the vicar's daughter and the vicarage gardener! Their son James was born a month later in Southport however they'd also had their 3 daughters before him: Jane born 1880 in Sunderland, Meg born 1882 in Musselburgh and Rebecca born 1885 in Mold. Jane's father is listed as Andrew Lindsay (deceased) Tin Smith. What would be the best way to tackle this now? I believe Jane had a brother called George who was born roughly 1870. Any help or advice much appreciated!
Many thanks once :)
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What makes you think Jane had a brother named George & where born, which may help others trying to help you?
Edit...I've read back, he'd be the George on the 1881 census?
What was the name & occ. of James' father?
Something I noticed was, you haven't found a son named Andrew (after Jane's father) which may be worth looking for?
Have you tried familysearch.org for the births of Jane & George?
Have you found Jane in 1871 with father Andrew?
From census records, what are the beginning & end yrs of birth for Jane as you give an approx. yr of 1863 which may differ by a few yrs?
Annie