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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: This Boy on Tuesday 09 March 21 22:05 GMT (UK)
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I almost dare not post this given the ease with which my last query was solved to my utter embarrassment. I am confident that this is a bit more challenging although I suspect someone may well prove me wrong.
My Avatar photo was taken in the back yard of of a Shakespeare Street, Carlisle terraced house after a wedding that took place in the Summer of 1912. Just look at those hats! The wedding was of Police Constable John James Turnbull and Annie Skinner b 11/10/1885. The groom was my fathers Uncle who inspired my father to join the police service himself. My father, before he died, wrote a note explaining that, seated directly next to the groom was; Grooms mother Sarah Anne and then next to her was the Grooms father William Turnbull. I think William was born in 1857 and Sarah 1862 but am not certain.
The birth certificate for John James shows he is the son of William Turnbull, a labourer at the Brick works. The mother was Sarah Ann Turnbull (formerly Tiffin). Sarah signed an x and she registered the birth on 1st May 1886. John James was born on 20/3/1886 at Charlotte Terrace, Botcherby, Carlisle. John had an older sister Jane born in 1883.
So the family was William Turnbull b 1857, Sarah Ann Turnbull nee Tiffin b 1862, Jane Turnbull b 1883 and John James Turnbull b 1886
I have John James in every subsequent census including the 1939 but there is a big question mark over the 1891 entry. In 1891 I find William and Sarah Ann Turnbull living together in Caldewgate but without the children listed. Separately, I found a John James Turnbull aged 5 in Caldewgate living at 9 Holme Court which my research shows was actually on Milbourne Street. The transcript shows his birth in Scotland but viewing the actual record it appears to be Botcherby, Carlisle. The only problem is he is with grandparents and their surname is Smith when Sara Ann had the maiden name Tiffin. I can only think of two possible explanation: That there are two identically named 5 year olds in the area or Sarah Ann was a widow aged just 20 when she married William. I favour the former. I cannot find Jane at all on the 1891 and my hunch is that wherever they were, the children were together.
It gets worse in that I cannot find a marriage for William Turnbull and Sarah Ann Tiffin. I have William and Sarah Ann Turnbull on the 1911 census at 6 Norfolk Street Carlisle and that lists 29 years of marriage suggesting the marriage was circa 1882. The 1911 census also suggests Sarah had 3 children but only one, John James, remained alive in 1911. She had Jane in 1883 which fits nicely with the notion of an 1882 marriage but I cannot find how, when or where Jane died and if she had married. I have an unmarried Jane on the 1901 census with her parents and John James at 4 Randall street, Carlisle. I have a possible marriage of a Jane Turnbull to Issac Robson in July 1905 in Carlisle but still no obvious death jumps out. I have no idea who the third child was or when it died.
I suspect Sara Ann Tiffin was the one born at Wigton in 1862 and perhaps died at Carlisle in 1st Quarter 1924. William was clearly alive in the wedding photo in summer of 1912 but could be one of several subsequent deaths.
I am willing to start spending on ordering some more certificates but want to avoid ordering the wrong ones if at all possible. I want to spend wisely and without missing any obvious and easy enquiries that may get me close to solutions first. Plus, if I cannot find the marriage in any index then I simply cannot order the certificate.
The goals I have set myself are:
Find the marriage and obtain the certificate for the marriage of Sarah Ann Tiffin and William Turnbull
Find John James and Jane Turnbull as children on the 1891 census.
Find the death for Jane (clearly between 1901 and 1911) and any marriage if there was one.
Find the name, birth and death of the third child and get certificates if necessary.
Obtain the correct death certificates for William and Sarah Ann Turnbull.
Any help in solving these problems will be very greatly appreciated. If I cannot solve them then I am interested to learn any theories about why or any advice anyone has in connection with them.
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Fabulous photo!
For a start, as a possibility, sister Jane appears to have been registered as Elizabeth Jane TURNBULL March qtr 1883 at Carlisle (10b/476) with mmn TIPPING. There is also a Margaret TURNBULL registered at Carlisle (10b/519) in Set qtr 1884 mmn TIPPING and a death for 1 year old Margaret TURNBULL at Carlisle Jun qtr 1885 (10b/359).
Will keep looking ... :)
Modified to add:
There is also a death for a 25 year old Elizabeth Jane TURNBULL at Carlisle Sept qtr 1908 (10b/332) - another possibility.
Also, just checking, you say John Joseph TURNBULL in the wedding, but John James TURNBULL is the birth certificate you have.
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Haven't found a marriage for William and Sarah Anne yet, however I think William may be the son of Jane, bap 28 Feb 1858 at Carlisle, birth reg Dec qtr 1857 Carlisle (10b/373).
I have to go out now so can't write all the details, but he can be found on the 1861 with brother John Lowther TURNBULL (also a policeman in later years) and grandparents William and Margaret TURNBULL.
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Thank you so much maddys52. Really appreciate this help.
I can confirm it is John James NOT John Joseph. I have corrected the original post.
I had discounted the Elizabeth Jane Turnbull and clearly given far too much credence to the 1901 census listing as simply Jane Turnbull. I certainly think it is now worth me ordering, perhaps one at a time, B & D certificates for Elizabeth Jane. If, as you suggest - and I agree, that William's mother was a Jane then 'dad' may have taken to calling his little girl Jane and Elizabeth got dropped in common usage.
Also very interesting is the alternative maiden name for Sarah Ann as Tipping rather than Tiffin. More so that it appears on the index for both Margaret AND Jane. I think you have likely solved my third and fourth objective here maddys52 and in doing so provided some keys to hopefully resolve the other issues in this case. Top work.
So very grateful for your help. I think confirmation bias clouds my thinking when I get a conundrum or brick wall and then I begin not to see or consider properly certain possibilities. For the first time I have some confidence that this puzzle may be solved, at least substantially if not completely.
As an aside, my father was able to identify 10 of those on the photograph but not the children or the cap wearing crouching young men. I am going to see if from census returns I can work out the likely identities of the two children. A tall order perhaps but I know the photo was taken in summer of 1912 and probably largely from just the Skinner and Turnbull families. I am interested to know anyone's estimate of the children's ages and therefore years of birth.
The bride, Annie Skinner also had a brother called David Skinner born in January 1993. My father could not identify him on the photograph as my dad was only born in 1930. Tragically, David died on 1st July 2016 on the first day of the battle of the Somme. When this photograph was taken in 1912, David would have been 19 years old. At that time he was working for a local firm in Carlisle as a lithographer so I would have expected him to have attended his sisters wedding and to be on the photograph. However of the two possible candidates on the photo (the crouching young men in caps) can I ask if anyone thinks one could be 19. I think one looks slightly too old and one slightly too young. I have David's war medals and cap badge as my grandmother (sister of David and of the bride - back row in the straw hat with pig tails) carried them with her all her life.
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I have this photograph of David Skinner taken just over 2 years after the wedding photograph. Does anybody think this soldier on my wedding photograph?
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I think this is sister (Elizabeth) Jane TURNBULL in 1891 - with grandmother (Elizabeth) Jane TURNBULL at Rickergate:
RG12/4289 pg22
Elizabeth Jane TURNBULL 59 Botcherby (charwoman)
Arthur 22 Botherby (railway labourer)
Richard WILKINSON (boarder) 45 Denton (brick labourer)
Elizabeth Jane TURNBULL 8 Carlisle
Modified to add:
Maybe put the photos on the Photo dating board - people there are very good at guessing ages and doing comparisons. :)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/free-photo-restoration/
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If this is the correct family, here are the census details for the TURNBULL's.
1861 at Botcherby
William TURNBULL 66 Brampton (labourer)
Margaret 73
James (son) 31
Margaret (dau) 36
Jane (dau) 29
Mary Jane (gr dau) 8 (I think Dau Margaret's child)
Margaret (gr dau) 6 (I think Dau Margaret's child)
Fanny JOHNSTONE (gr dau) 3
William TURNBULL (gr son) 3 (Dau Jane's child)
John Lowther (gr son) 3months (Dau Jane's child)
Richard TURNBULL (visitor) 19 Denton
RG9/3917 pg12
1871 at Wetheral
Margaret TURNBULL 83 (shopkeeper, grocer)
Jane (dau) 39
William (gr son) 14
John 9
Sarah Jane 5
Arthur 3
Richard WILKINSON (visitor) 25 Low Hesket
RG10/5215 pg28
1881 at Botchergate
Jane TURNBULL 49 (charwoman)
William 23
Arthur 13
RG11/5155 pg 7
I can't see William in 1891? - you say he is in Caldewgate, but I don't seem to be able to find him?
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Brilliant maddys52. Thank you.
Yes, William and Sarah Ann are mistranscribed as Taylor not Turnbull in the 1891 census that I found - goodness knows how. Notwithstanding, that the original is feint and poor it is clearly Turnbull not Taylor. Taylors are next door. It is just William and Sarah though, no children. I cannot make out the exact address but Charlotte Terrace (where John James was born) is on the same page.
If you are right about Elizabeth Jane junior in 1891 and if I am right about William and Sarah Ann in 1891 (I think we are probably both right on those issues) that still leaves us with the puzzle of John James in 1891 and the elusive marriage. Thanks for your help here. Really appreciate it.
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Ah yes, I see them now :D
It is a puzzle - why is John James with the SMITHs? Possibly Janet's 2nd marriage? Possibly related to William's father (as mother Jane remained unmarried, it would be interesting to see who William names as father on his marriage - if you ever find it!) I don't know, a few possibilities. It's my bed time now, will have another look at this interesting family hopefully tomorrow!
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I think the soldier is the same person who is crouching on the right side of the wedding photo. On both photos you can see his left eye is slightly more open/larger than his right, and also his left eyebrow is arched higher than his right. He also has a noticeable "cupid's bow".
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Thank you Jools.
I would never have thought to figure that out but the evidence you point too is compelling. He just doesn't look 19 on the wedding photo but I am convinced you are correct as the peculiarity of your observation is powerful indeed.
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So, I have spent the evening sorting out William Turnbull b. 1857, his mother Elizabeth Jane b.1832 and her parents Willian b 1795 and Margaret Turnbull nee Harding b 1788. I added all William's Turnbull aunts and uncles: Mary b. 1820, Margaret b. 1825, Thomas b. 1825 and James b. 1830. I managed to get a pretty full and convincing set of evidence for each. I am really pleased and grateful Maddys52 that you have provided the keys to unlock the problem of 'Jane' that I highlighted in my first post. Yes, it is clearly Elizabeth Jane with a 1908 death. The missing child, Margaret too - I am convinced you are right in everything you found and suggested.
Given two of the children of William and Sarah Ann have the maiden name of mother as Tipping then that must be more likely than Tiffin as recorded on John James Birth Certificate. My early trawl has not really turned up much particularly useful for a Sarah Ann Tipping though. There is a birth in Q4 1862 Carlisle 10b/422 and an 1881 census of a 19 year old Sarah Ann Tipping lodging at Trinity Buildings in Caldewgate and working as a cotton bobbin winder. Both fit quite well but I lack parents, an 1871 census for her and especially the elusive marriage to William Turnbull which has always been a big objective and a puzzling omission.
With regard to my other puzzle regarding the whereabouts of my John James Turnbull on the 1891 census, I think the one I suggested where there is a 5 year old John James Turnbull, born in Botcherby and living with Smith grandparents is increasingly unlikely to be my John James. I have found another John James Turnbull baptised in Carlisle to a David and Jane Turnbull (no maiden name) on 7/9/1884. I suspect this one is the Smith grandson leaving my John James still missing in the 1891.
Any help or suggestions with these final issues will be greatly appreciated.
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Not sure if it helps, but it looks like John & Janet Smith's daughter Jane may have died unmarried in 1888, so not sure she could be the Mrs Jane Turnbull baptising John James
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Might this be connected?
Marriages Sep 1874 Carlisle 10b 693
Brown Jemima
Ivison Charles
Johnson William
Tiffin Sarah Ann <<<<
Just not sure how it works with a birth date of 1862!
Further digging shows she marries William Johnson, was born c1851 and probably dies in 1883
Well at least you can cross her off
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Thank you Mabel. Your first discovery makes my head hurt. Just as I thought I had worked out an explanation. I cannot puzzle how this can be but I shall ponder and am very grateful. Yes, your second point reflects what Ancestry kept throwing at me as hints over recent months. The ancestry algorithm or however they deduce hints was obsessed with conflating Johnsons into the mix.
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Both fit quite well but I lack parents, an 1871 census for her and especially the elusive marriage to William Turnbull which has always been a big objective and a puzzling omission.
A possibility:
In 1871 in Botchergate
Joseph TIPPNG 50
Elizabeth 39
Sarah 7
Hannah 5
Alice 2
RG10/5217 pg49
Note that the family next door is Henry and Hannah (?) LOWTHER - a coincidence with the name of William's brother? :-\
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Thank you Maddys52.
I had been wondering where Lowther came from. I have gone back on Williams Turnbull line a couple of generations and the Lowther name does not appear so it is not unreasonable to expect it was a maiden name of Sarah's mother or grandmother perhaps. I wonder if those living next door to the Tippings in 1871 were relatives. On the balance of probabilities I think the record you mention is the right one, especially given the Lowther name next door. I will have another look at this today.
The key seems to be finding the marriage. Family History is often like doing a complex jigsaw only to find one missing piece left at the end. So frustrating ;D
I wonder what people think is the most likely reason for the missing marriage? A mistranscription - (but surely not of both names and so badly that we cannot find it), a marriage abroad (very simple working class folks so it doesn't seem likely, that they didn't actually get married but just lived and acted as such, some other reason. I don't really understand Gretna marriages but am consious that it was pretty close to Carlisle.
I strongly believe the marriage to have been circa 1882 as the 1911 census records 29 years of marriage. The first child is born in 1893. In 1881 both are recorded as unmarried, William as an unemployed farm labourer and Sarah Ann as Cotton Bobbin Weaver. By 1891 the couple are recorded as married and have two living children although not with them on census night.
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Gretna marriages were my first port of call - a quick look didn’t find them though I didn’t check variations of surnames - I will have another look. :)
Added: no luck I’m afraid. I’m not sure if the records are complete on Ancestry though.
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Sarah's birthplace is Stanwix, Carlisle in the 1891 census. Could this possibly be her with her mother and siblings in 1871. Transcribed as Tepping and Stanwix as Stanwise
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5B1-FLK
and mum and sister in 1861 although mum is Mary in 61 and Margaret in 71, but think Margaret is the correct name as she is margaret in 1851 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7LF-YJ7
The children of Margaret Tipping don't have a father named on their birth certificate, but of course that doesn't mean they didn't know him or have a relationship with him, could Sarah's father be James Smith of Holmes Court? just a thought!
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I have found another John James Turnbull baptised in Carlisle to a David and Jane Turnbull (no maiden name) on 7/9/1884. I suspect this one is the Smith grandson leaving my John James still missing in the 1891.
I think Jane maybe Jane Gibbs (b1841), she married David Turnbull in 1862, but there is no corresponding birth reg for a John James mmn Gibbs. This Jane and David appear to have had 2 sons, John and James who both died as babies .
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Thank you Ruskie for checking Gretna records.
Thanks again Gan Yam. You always try to help me and it is appreciated. I will have a look at those. I just got a bit distracted looking at John Lowther Turnbull as he was a Police Inspector who no doubt influenced his nephew John James to join the force. John James in turn inspired my father to join before both my brother and I both followed suit and signed up for 30 years each. So John Lowther Turnbull has a lot to answer for! There are some reports of John Lowther's police exploits in the British Newspaper Archive. After he retired from the police service he ran the Wheatsheaf Hotel at Wetheral. I have also found that John James' police records survive so I have applied for those too. I doubt they will help me find William and Sarah's marriage but this little foray is turning out more fruitful than I hoped and I am so grateful for the help I have received here. Sadly with events in London and Kent this week, tragically, this is not a good week for the British Police. I guess the Turnbull chaps would turn in their graves if they knew.
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Just to completely confuse me, my attention to John Lowther Turnbull's son, also John James Turnbull has just thrown up a possible marriage. 2nd Q 1908 a John James Turnbull married a Martha Tiffin or Martha Howe. My head hurts :P
At least it is another lead to chase.
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Just to completely confuse me, my attention to John Lowther Turnbull's son, also John James Turnbull has just thrown up a possible marriage. 2nd Q 1908 a John James Turnbull married a Martha Tiffin or Martha Howe. My head hurts :P
At least it is another lead to chase.
I saw that marriage, that John James was born in 1879 and appears to be the son of Joseph Turnbull and Mary Wilkinson and Martha Tiffen (b1887 mmn Burgess) was definitely his bride. 1911 census, son Bertram(b1910) has mmn Tiffin. The plot thickens maybe!
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I am struggling to get my head around this Gan Yam but trying hard. Do you think the purchase of any certificates may help significantly? It may help to clear up the Tiffin, Tiffen, Tipping issue but I doubt it. Sarah Ann looks a pretty formidable woman in any case. Poor William looks like he is struggling to perch on the last couple of inches of the bench. ;D
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Sarah Ann looks a pretty formidable woman in any case. Poor William looks like he is struggling to perch on the last couple of inches of the bench. ;D
;D ;D
Sarah's birthplace is Stanwix, Carlisle in the 1891 census. Could this possibly be her with her mother and siblings in 1871. Transcribed as Tepping and Stanwix as Stanwise
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5B1-FLK
Yes, that's another possibility. Transcribed as LEPPING on Ancestry. ::) So many possibilities and name variants, so many unmarried parents! Very interesting problem.
I was wondering if it might be an idea to start a new thread just looking for a marriage of William TURNBULL and Sarah Anne TIFFIN/TIPPNG/etc? , with a link to this thread. Some fresh eyes may have some fresh ideas. ;)
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What board do people think it would be best to post that specific issue as a separate thread?
I will try to draw together the evidence relating solely to that one specific issue ready to post later today.
Big thanks again.
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I am struggling to get my head around this Gan Yam but trying hard. Do you think the purchase of any certificates may help significantly? It may help to clear up the Tiffin, Tiffen, Tipping issue but I doubt it. Sarah Ann looks a pretty formidable woman in any case. Poor William looks like he is struggling to perch on the last couple of inches of the bench. ;D
As the guests are all wearing very impressive hats I am assuming that this was a church wedding. I haven't checked but am assuming that Shakespeare Street was in Caldewgate in Poets corner and they would marry in Holy Trinity Church. If everywhere was open I could have checked the marriage entry for you to see if the witnesses would give any clue.
There is another birth that's maybe for Stanwix Sarah's mother in 1872 Margaret Tipping 1872 died same quarter. No father on the entry. There is a possible death for this Sarah's brother Thomas Tipping in 1946. If she turns out to be this Sarah, I can't see that her mother would have a problem with her never marrying William, but maybe the Turnbull's might not have been so forgiving! ;D
(strangely enough my the "smiths" lived in the same place as my gggrandparent who also lived in Holmes Court and William and Sarah lived in the Charlotte Terrace at the same time as a different set of my gggrandparents)
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Good point Gan Yam about the hats indicating a likely Church wedding. I cannot find an old street map of Carlisle (any link to such would be appreciated as I have a modern Street guide which my head is rarely out of). I visited Carlisle a lot as a boy but have rarely been back although that will change when lockdown ends - I will be visiting for a week. Shakespeare Street does not appear to exist any longer. On the 1811 census the brides family are listed at 7 Shakespeare Street, CALDEWGATE, Carlisle. If they did marry at Holy Trinity church would there be a 'parish' record there of the marriage? I think we are pretty convinced in was 1882. Forgive my ignorance but would it be at the Church or the archive?
Great to think of our people living alongside each other all those years ago too Gan Yam.
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Here is a link to Arthur's plan of Carlisle 1880. (Arthurs plan is much more detailed than National Library of Scotland maps).
Shakespeare Street is on there. If you find the Castle on the map (north side of the city) and follow the road in front (Annetwell Street) going west, just over river Caldew (Bridge street), the road then changes into Church Street. As it changes the road to the right is Byron Street and Shakespeare Street if off Byron Street. The streets close by have poets names hence Poets Corner. You will see Holy Trinity Church at the end of Church Street. Easy walk to the Church.
This whole area has changed considerably over the last few years! For reference on a modern map Stainsbury's Supermarket stands on the site and McVitties Biscuits is just along the road. The Church is no longer there, but the plot is. The records for the church are held at both the Archives Centre and in the city centre Library.
https://cumbriaimagebank.org.uk/historicalmaps.php?file=008
Here is a link to Cumbria Image Bank, if you've not seen it before. Lots of photos of Caldewgate on it and this is also where the above map lives along with lots of other maps.
https://cumbriaimagebank.org.uk/index.php
And here is a photo of Charlotte Terrace, Botcherby. Charlotte Terrace is still there.
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"Stanwix" Sarah's sister, Mary Jane, married Charles Henry Kendall, probably at Holy Trinity Church brother Thomas W Tipping is on the entry. Their first child Mary Isabella Kendal born 1882 mmn TIFFEN, so Tiffen could be relevant or the registrar struggled with their pronunciation and accents! ;D
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Big thanks to everyone who has helped or tried to help me with this. I have made significant progress notwithstanding the puzzles that remain. I have particularly enjoyed looking at the configuration of the various streets around Willow Holme/Poets corner where these folks resided from the map that Gan Yam highlighted . I understand that Shakespeare Street was demolished around 1953 and that Carr's biscuits owned many of the houses to rent to workers. The bride on my photograph, Annie Skinner was a Forewoman at the factory. I haven't been able to find any photographs of Byron Street or Shakespeare Street but would love to find some.
Gan Yam, it seems that libraries will be able to open from 12th April as lockdown rules start to ease. They get liberated at the same time as non essential shops. If it were possible to check the Holy Trinity records for me next time you visit I would be ever so grateful?
Another thing I enjoyed was researching John Lowther Turnbull's police career. It is surprising what you can often find with a simple Google search. I came up with a clock that he was presented with to mark his 1910 retirement as a Police Inspector which is engraved with the details:https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/a-victorian-black-slate-eight-day-mausoleum-clock-1916-c-38ea5484df# If you open the link and click on item overview it says: Description
A Victorian black slate eight day mausoleum clock with circular dial set with Arabic numerals with presentation plaque inscribed ''Presented to Inspector John Turnbull, City of Carlisle Police Force by the Chief Constable Officers and Constables on his retirement after 26 years service, December 1910'', height 39cm.
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The bride on my photograph, Annie Skinner was a Forewoman at the factory.
The girls and women who worked at Carrs are known locally as "Cracker Packers" and there has been a small statue erected near the factory in honour of them.
I haven't been able to find any photographs of Byron Street or Shakespeare Street but would love to find some.
Photo attached. Byron Street is the street that runs at the side of the Joiners Arms, marked on the photo.
Gan Yam, it seems that libraries will be able to open from 12th April as lockdown rules start to ease. They get liberated at the same time as non essential shops. If it were possible to check the Holy Trinity records for me next time you visit I would be ever so grateful?
Last time lockdown was eased, microfisch machines were still out of bounds, but I will check the records as soon as allowed!
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Just wonderful Gan Yam. Thank you so much.
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After a few months away I am returning to my family history research and this problem in particular.
My first port of call was the 1921 census and it has uncovered a clue that may help solve the problem but certainly complicates a situation which is already a challenge.
So I find Sarah Ann Turnbull still resident at 6 Norfolk Street, Carlisle. She is head of the household, a widow and is aged 58 years and 8 months and born at Carlisle Cumberland. Occupation is home duties. There are 3 men resident with her. All are listed as brothers but one of them is listed as her half brother. He is James Sherlock Aged 42 years and 3 months born at Carlisle Cumberland. He is single, a process worker and confusingly is listed both as working for Scottish ? Limited at Carlisle and as out of work.
I am going to try to fathom what investigative opportunities this offers this evening but welcome any thoughts. I guess Sherlock will be from the same mother but a different father to Sarah Ann. I also not a significant age gap between them.
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Trying to trace James - he's not around much on censuses as he joined up in 1897 and is overseas in both 1901 and 1911
This presumably is his birth
SHERLOCK, JAMES
mmn TIPPING
Q2 1880 CARLISLE Volume 10B Page 510
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Hi Mabel,
Thank you so much. I think we can be sure that Sarah Ann was a Tipping not a Tiffen or Tiffin now. If Sarah Ann Turnbull's maiden name was Tipping and her half brothers mothers maiden name was Tipping I think that means that Sarah Ann Turnbull was illegitimate and that her mother subsequently married a Mr Sherlock. Would you agree?
Neil.
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So this is the family on 1881 in Back Duke St, Caldewgate - Henry also has mmn Tipping. All b Carlisle except where noted
William Sherlock 38
Margaret Ann Sherlock 38 - washerwoman b Bootle
Mary Jane Sherlock 22 - daughter b Rockliff
Thomas W. Tiffen 16 - stepson
Henry Sherlock 4
James Sherlock 13 months
Margaret Lamb 2 - daughter [???]
RG11; 5160; 99; 44;
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YAY ;D ;D ;D
Brilliant Mabel. That should blow this whole case open I think.
Thank you so much.
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I think the Leppings have been mentioned before?
1871 - Caldewgate
Margaret Ann Lepping 28 Head b Bootle. Unmarried
Mary P Lepping 13 Daughter b Bootle
Sarah D Lepping 8 Daughter
Thomas W Lepping 5 Son
Grace Robinson 20 Boarder
Haven't found a Sherlock marriage yet!
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Fantastic Mabel,
Yes, it was reply 24 a team effort from Maddys52 and Gan Yam.
More thanks. ;D
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I am staggered at the fantastic help I have had on this case and the success too. Most problems are solved, certainly most of the big ones. I think the ones that remain are perhaps likely to remain a mystery:
Where is any record of the marriage between William Turnbull and Sarah Ann Tipping? The 1911 census states 29 years of marriage, they were both unmarried on 1881 census but had their first Turnbull child in Q1 1883. This creates such a small window of time for the marriage. Do you think that I am just not looking in the right place for the marriage or is it more likely that they were never actually married.
Why is John James Turnbull, as a 5 year old boy, not living with his parents who are listed alone but appears to be living with a James and Janet Smith who are listed as his Grandparents. Is this a different John James Turnbull aged 5? Is James Smith the father of an illegitimate William Turnbull or the illegitimate Sarah Ann Tipping?
I also cannot find a death for William Turnbull b 1857. He is living in the 1911 census but his wife is a widow in the 1921 census.
I am happy to spend money buying a certificate or two to try to solve these mysteries but where do people think my money would be best spent?
I am interested in any discussion about such not just solutions.
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Why is John James Turnbull, as a 5 year old boy, not living with his parents who are listed alone but appears to be living with a James and Janet Smith who are listed as his Grandparents. Is this a different John James Turnbull aged 5? Is James Smith the father of an illegitimate William Turnbull or the illegitimate Sarah Ann Tipping?
Janet's maiden name was Craig, so William isn't her son
John James might just have been staying with his grandparents on census night, not living with them permanently
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Thank you Mabel,
Then do you think I can infer with confidence that James Smith was the father of the illegitimate Sarah Ann Tipping? Do you think it would be common in those days for such men to retain a relationship with their blood grandchildren? If so that surprises me although perhaps it should not. I don't suppose there is any way of establishing such.
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With regard to my other puzzle regarding the whereabouts of my John James Turnbull on the 1891 census, I think the one I suggested where there is a 5 year old John James Turnbull, born in Botcherby and living with Smith grandparents is increasingly unlikely to be my John James. I have found another John James Turnbull baptised in Carlisle to a David and Jane Turnbull (no maiden name) on 7/9/1884. I suspect this one is the Smith grandson leaving my John James still missing in the 1891.
Any help or suggestions with these final issues will be greatly appreciated.
Just spotted this I wrote months ago. Back to the drawing board perhaps.
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Thank you Mabel,
Then do you think I can infer with confidence that James Smith was the father of the illegitimate Sarah Ann Tipping? Do you think it would be common in those days for such men to retain a relationship with their blood grandchildren? If so that surprises me although perhaps it should not. I don't suppose there is any way of establishing such.
For a child of an unmarried couple to have the father named on the birth certificate, he had to be present at the Registration of the birth. If he was working and unable to have time off to go with the mother to register the birth there was no formal recognition of his relationship to the child.
So just because the father is not named does not mean that there was no on-going relationship between the father and his illegitimate child.
So Sarah Ann may well have known her father -- he may even have lived with the family for some of her early life -- and the relationship continued once she had children of her own.
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Thank you for this explanation Marmalady. I was not aware. I suppose it remains inconclusive. I think this evening I shall have a go at seeing if the other identically named John James Turnbull has a Smith grandparent then at least I will be able to rule that particular census return out.
Thanks again,
Neil.
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For a child of an unmarried couple to have the father named on the birth certificate, he had to be present at the Registration of the birth. If he was working and unable to have time off to go with the mother to register the birth there was no formal recognition of his relationship to the child.
So just because the father is not named does not mean that there was no on-going relationship between the father and his illegitimate child.
So Sarah Ann may well have known her father -- he may even have lived with the family for some of her early life -- and the relationship continued once she had children of her own.
If an unmarried father was present at a birth registration and named as the father, would the child still take the mothers surname?
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I am increasingly believing that the John James Turnbull who was resident as a 5 year old grandson of James Smith aged 56 is 'my' John James Turnbull and that James Smith must have been the blood father of the illegitimate Sarah Ann Tipping. James Smith was born in Stanwix. In 1861 Sarah's mother, Margaret Ann is living in Stanwix. Sarah was born in Stanwix. James is 8 years older than Margaret Ann. The boy John James is recorded in the census as having been born in Botcherby. My John James was born in Botcherby.
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If an unmarried father was present at a birth registration and named as the father, would the child still take the mothers surname?
Depends entirely on the family circumstances. There is no hard and fast rule.
If they were all living together as a family the child may well have taken the father's name -- but could equally well have taken the mother's name
If the parents were living separately, the child is less likely to take the father's name, but again might have done.
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I am increasingly believing that the John James Turnbull who was resident as a 5 year old grandson of James Smith aged 56 is 'my' John James Turnbull and that James Smith must have been the blood father of the illegitimate Sarah Ann Tipping. James Smith was born in Stanwix. In 1861 Sarah's mother, Margaret Ann is living in Stanwix. Sarah was born in Stanwix. James is 8 years older than Margaret Ann. The boy John James is recorded in the census as having been born in Botcherby. My John James was born in Botcherby.
It seems a reasonable conclusion
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As the guests are all wearing very impressive hats I am assuming that this was a church wedding. I haven't checked but am assuming that Shakespeare Street was in Caldewgate in Poets corner and they would marry in Holy Trinity Church. If everywhere was open I could have checked the marriage entry for you to see if the witnesses would give any clue.
Have checked and the wedding did take place in Holy Trinity Church, hence the magnificent head wear!.
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Hi Neil,
Hopefully I am not too late to the party.
To possibly add a wrench into this investigation, I note that there was a marriage of a Margaret Tiffen registered in Carlisle in 1862. On the page of possible grooms is listed a George Smith. Dec 1862 10b 580
I don't know if this helps or hinders at all.
Note: Check your PMs for a message from me.
Regards
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familysearch have this marriage between Margaret TIFFEN and Thomas SEWELL 22 Dec 1862 at Christ Church, Carlisle
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NKBK-JLF
(Margaret TIFFIN on the marriage registration)
So no SMITH connecton here. ;)
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That solved, then. Thank you maddys52! ;D