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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Lady Di on Wednesday 10 March 21 06:54 GMT (UK)
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According to 972 family trees and various books, twins were born at Sydney/Richmond on 18 February 1796.
They were Elizabeth & Philis, daughters of James (Convict) and his free wife Ann Somerville (var spelling). Many report they were the first surviving twins born in the colony but that might be just a good story!
I know that 99% of the family trees have simply copied dates from various books but I'd like to find the actual source of their date of birth.
Can't see it on NSWBDM, nor Ancestry, nor FamilySearch or FindMyPast or St Phillips PR's or St Peters but I believe this date is probably correct.
Where on earth did someone find it?
Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.
Thanks
Di
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Not early enough for your twins and no mention of the parent names - TROVE has a report of twins born to a couple at Kissing Point. There's a mention of this mother having delivered twins eleven months prior.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/626167
Judith
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Both married on 19 May 1812, see parish register St Phillips. I will type up my transcript ofthe transcripts tomorrow.
Do you have any newspaper reports of the likely double wedding ceremony? Was it in Sydney, or could the St Phillips entry be a summary from transmitted records sent through to NSW chaplains? Just that on the left hand side of the original register in that white space, in that decade, Sometimes Rev actually wrote age of bride and groom ... and sometimes date, place of baptism :) only sometimes ...
Do you have any obits for James or Ann? Or for any of their children ... :)
Did either James or Ann die after 1 March 1856, in NSW ... if so, does the d.c. give then age for Elizabeth and or Phillis, .....
Fingers crossed ....
JM
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Not early enough for your twins and no mention of the parent names - TROVE has a report of twins born to a couple at Kissing Point. There's a mention of this mother having delivered twins eleven months prior.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/626167
Judith
Interesting Judith - Poor woman, imagine having 4 children under 1 yr old in those times. ::)
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Both married on 19 May 1812, see parish register St Phillips. I will type up my transcript ofthe transcripts tomorrow.
Do you have any newspaper reports of the likely double wedding ceremony? Was it in Sydney, or could the St Phillips entry be a summary from transmitted records sent through to NSW chaplains? Just that on the left hand side of the original register in that white space, in that decade, Sometimes Rev actually wrote age of bride and groom ... and sometimes date, place of baptism :) only sometimes ...
Do you have any obits for James or Ann? Or for any of their children ... :)
Did either James or Ann die after 1 March 1856, in NSW ... if so, does the d.c. give then age for Elizabeth and or Phillis, .....
Fingers crossed ....
JM
Thanks JM - I do have all the details of the twins double wedding including the fact that they were minors & well underage. They were married by Rev Henry Fulton at St Philips. No extra details provided. Parents died pre 1856 and no obit mentioning children unfortunately.
I was hoping that there may be some V- records that haven't been transcribed for NSWBDM but I haven't been able to check the original films.
Thanks for your help and suggestions
Di
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Ohhhh ..... Rev Henry, his records are infamously scant in details .... but May 1812, are you sure he was at St Phillips or was he transmitting from Hawkesbury to St Phillips .... I will phone a rellie tomorrow :)
JM.
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;D Yes, the interesting Rev Henry. I've been reading about the life and times of the man - wonderful stories.
This is what I found re the good Rev and the dates he was at St Philips:
"Fulton was called to England as a witness at the court martial of Colonel Johnston, and on returning to Sydney in 1812, was appointed to St Phillip’s Church Sydney during the illness of Rev. William Cowper. Next Governor Macquarie appointed Fulton to the position of parson at Castlereagh and Richmond, New South Wales in July 1814."
I can't confirm the accuracy of it but it does match with other records I've found.
You asked about obits - one of the twins died in SMH July 1866. Her death notice said she was "in her 70th year." Therefore born abt 1796 which matches her quoted birth details, surprisingly.
Di
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Trove .... just found he arrived back per the Mary to Sydney 9 May 1812 ... after giving witness supporting Bligh ... and with a commission commencing 31 May 1814 (not a typo) as Chaplain, so Macquarie appointed him deputy chaplain as interim measure, so he could have married the girls.
NSW bdm has two entries for each marriage, vol 3A and vol 7. Vol 3A has ceremonies from outlying parishes... CA, CB, CC ...
But it's a grand question you have asked ... and we'll worth considering... so lead on I say...
I did NOT type any apostrophy ... WELL ... is a real word... I hate these AI keyboards... Turn them OFF ...
JM.
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In the morning I will look at the YES option at NSW bdm online indexes for marriage.... 1355 / 1812 and 1356 / 1812 and check for missing numbers ... although sometimes they will be for Churchings and othertimes they will be where Rev Cowper took up two or three entries to get the entry right ... he was ill ....and over worked and arguing with Macquarie over marriages and criminal intercourse and marrying beyond the sea when spouse known to be alive back in England... Rev Henry had no such objections...
JM
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Hi Lady Di, :D :D :D
Biographical Database of Australia, annual subs about $30. https://www.bda-online.org.au/
Here's a possible starting point to look out for live twin births with both babies surviving in that era.
Samuel CRAFT 1763-1833.... per Salamander - seems that he had several NSW born children, including twins with Elizabeth DAVIES. The twins were William and Elizabeth born 1800. William married twice - second wife was Ann McGRATH, daughter of Elizabeth SOMERVILLE.
Re missing lines... Firstly I looked at marriages for 1812 for volume 3A ... so will hopefully obeying Lachlan Macquarie's General orders issued 1810 ... See Sydney Gazette 22 September 1810 page 1. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/628072 - it was meant to cover 'all births and deaths' ... not just baptisms and burials conducted to C of E rites.
Volume 3A for 1812 marriages sample test run only, sorting the online display by Registration number from highest with district as C* (reason ... to avoid results coming up for other volumes of line 1 etc, volume 3A will have the most entries as it is for NSW chaplains receiving transmitted records as well as actual ceremonies held at St Phillips).
(district of) CH - line 2230
CB - line 1550; 1433; 1431; 1427; 1422; 1418 - 1416; 1406-1405; 1403;
CC - lines 1439, 1438; 1434; 1428; 1420 - 1419; 1415- 1412; 1408-1407; 1404;
CA - lines 1437 - 1435; 1432; 1430 - 1429; 1426-1423; 1421; 1411-1409; 1402 - 1400;
CH is Christ Church, Newcastle.
CC is St Matthews CofE, Windsor
CB is St Johns Parramatta
CA is St Phillips
That's not saying that the ceremonies were held within the church building, rather that the parish register for that district lists the ceremony. So we need to remember that both St Johns at Parramatta and St Phillips in Sydney Town were where NSW Chaplains were conducting C of E services and also were recording transmitted records of births, deaths, churchings and marriages ... umm... so volume 3 was not just holding C of E info, but of course the bulk of the info was C of E as there were not too many clergy of other denominations in the colony.
Comment ... I have only taken a very very small sample, but it seems to have not omitted any line numbers there. I have confirmed that I can still 'sort' each of the NSW BDM column headings separately. This is very handy when looking for missing numbers or looking for null info in a cell.
I will wait for some of my rellies phoning me for suggestions for looking for 1796 era baptisms... I have searched this morning online and yes, our Hawkesbury family from that decade - yes all of 'our' baptisms are still listed at NSW BDM ... ;D
JM
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Oh dear me, you have been busy. Many thanks JM :-*
Christenings for the Craft family seem to be well documented in the early years as do many others in the Hawkesbury area. Even the twin's brother was christened in 1795 at St Phillips which was why I thought it odd that there was no documentary evidence for the twins birth on a specific date in 1796.
Looking forward to hearing what your knowledgeable rellies have to say.
Fingers crossed and many thanks
Di
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An assumption ... your Ann SOMERVILLE arrived per Surprize in October 1794 and died in 1802. Your James SOMERVILLE arrived same ship, under a life sentence.
Question ... do you know or 'almost know' who raised Elizabeth and Phillis ..... and where? Hawkesbury or Sydney Town or Minto etc ... not really critical, but just may give clues as to which CofE clergyman may have baptised the girls.... :)
JM
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Your assumption is correct
Prior to 1802 when Ann died the family appear to have mainly used St Phillips church in Sydney Town. No sign of twins' birth in their records unfortunately.
Looks like James raised the girls on his own.
James was with Charlotte Hartley ("Indespensible” 1809) from about 1812 for some years. 1814 shows them at Parramatta. He seems to have lived all over the place, Sydney town, Parramatta, Minto & Liverpool during the following decade or so.
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Even the twin's brother was christened in 1795 at St Phillips which was why I thought it odd that there was no documentary evidence for the twins birth on a specific date in 1796.
I wonder whether William George's baptism and death/burial occurring on the same day (10 Feb 1785) might have had something to do with that?
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Even the twin's brother was christened in 1795 at St Phillips which was why I thought it odd that there was no documentary evidence for the twins birth on a specific date in 1796.
I wonder whether William George's baptism and death/burial occurring on the same day (10 Feb 1785) might have had something to do with that?
First Fleet did not arrive until January 1788, The Somerville couple arrived October 1794.
JM
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St Philips registers ... from notes made by a now retired Clergy CofE ...
Births/baptisms
20 January 1795, William George, a son for James and Ann SOMMERVILLE ....
Burials/deaths
10 February, 1795 William SOMMERVILLE, infant ...
So probably just a typo in Treespirits post.
Convicts were expected to attend church services every week, right throughout the entire penal era.
JM
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I wonder whether William George's baptism and death/burial occurring on the same day (10 Feb 1785) might have had something to do with that?
Must admit I wondered the same thing. So sad to see how many babies died in the new colony.
Actually it was amazing that their son died but their twin girls survived - female constitution and all that :D
Added: Thanks for the date adjust etc JM.
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Interim info, ALAS, no sign of any extant baptism records for the 1796 twin girls… but William survived for three weeks in the hot weather of Sydney town in Jan and Feb 1795 ... His mum likely had not ever experienced such a climate and may have been without any local female support to help her nurture her baby.
From several of my retired rellies:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZD-GQJ
3 March, 1828.
Laurence HALLORAN and Phillis SOMERVILLE married. He was recorded as aged 22 and she was recorded as aged 32. That places her as born circa 1796.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZV-N2C
19 May 1812 Elizabeth SOMERVILLE marriage with Michael MCGRATH.
And
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZV-CJ3
19 May 1812 Phillis SOMERVILLE marriage with James DORSEY.
A rhetorical question or three !…
Would you expect that the 1828 marriage would have Phillis as a widow, and her surname be recorded as DORSEY or is the 1828 marriage for a different Phillis? If so, when and where was the Mrs Halloran born, raised, arrived in NSW, …
If the 1828 marriage is for the same lass as married in 1812, what happened to her first husband?
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On the 1828 NSW census, can you clearly locate both Elizabeth and Phillis?
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/magazine/1828-census and
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/webinars/mini-webinar-the-1828-census and https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=810812.0
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/census-musters-guide
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Can you find James, father of Elizabeth and Phillis in the 1806 muster … if so, where, what doing, who with, … the girls would have been aged ten, possibly still with him ….
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Have you considered they may have entered the Orphanage system some time after Ann died? https://www.australianhistoryresearch.info/sydney-female-orphan-school-1801-1818/ The thesis mentioned there is uploaded as a pdf – ‘orphan’ had a very broad meaning in NSW in that early era.
JM
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Hi,
According to Phillis' death certificate (00886/1866) Her fathers name was given as Summerfield (sic) occupation Carpenter. Twice married in Sydney, first spouse unknown, 2nd Laurence Henry Halloran.
James Darcey who she married in 1812 was a Mariner of the ship Gov Macquarie. No idea what happened to him.
Could not find Phillis on 1828 census under Darcey/Halloran. Elizabeth on 1828 census under Elizabeth McGrath.
JLS7
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Alas, a quick report from my rellies …. NOT yet found the twin girls but they have checked and there’s probably another baby’s baptism missing too ….
City of Sydney has recently updated their Old Sydney Burial Ground excel spreadsheet …
So, Just popping some information, likely Lady Di already has this, but sharing here
https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/history/old-sydney-burial-ground
Old Sydney Burial Ground:
8 July 1802 burial Ann SUMMERVELL RST : Free RM
10 Feb 1795 burial William George SUMMERVILLE infant, RST : RM
11 May 1799 burial Jane SUMMERVILLE, infant, RST : RM
RM: Thomas D. Mutch Index, Mitchell Library CY377 – 378. Card index of birth, marriage, and death entries compiled from parish registers. Though it covers later time periods, it is most effective for the pre-1830 time frame.
RST: St Phillips Church parish Register
Vol 2 has C/E burials 1787 to 1831
Vol 4 has chronological baptisms, burials & marriages 1787 to 1809 for St Phillips Sydney.
Vol 5 has baptisms, burials & marriages 1809 to 1811 for St Phillips Sydney.
Vol 7 has baptisms, burials & marriages 1812 to 1818 for St Phillips Sydney.
Vol 8 has baptisms, burials & marriages 1819 to 1825 for St Phillips Sydney.
Noting the City of Sydney Archives have many collections from first settlement through the penal era, to the pre-gold rush era, right through the 19th century and the 20th century too... :) https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/history-archive-collections/archives
Does not seem to have been inquests for those three deaths. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/coroners-inquests-index
I add … A particular CD is no longer working for me, so I cannot do some of the searches I used to do, sorry, I guess I will have to make do with online efforts.
Ann SUMMERVILLE burial, Vol 2A, line 1665, 1802 and Vol 4, line 1122, 1802
William G SOMMERVILLE burial Vol.2A. line 1148, 1795 & Vol 4, line 700, 1795
Jane SUMMERVILLE burial Vol 4, line 931, 1799. (not found an entry in Vol 2 index)
So, perhaps we need to be looking for Jane’s baptism too?
JM
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Wonderful research JM - amazing how much easier it all is these days. 40 years ago it would take us weeks and weeks to find half that info.
You're right - Jane's birth/baptism is also missing but, sadly, because she died as an infant, no one seems to have looked for her birthdate. Hundreds of trees simply say she was born abt 1798.
Please pass on my appreciation to your rellies. It's always a blessing when another (or 2) sets of eyes can check or confirm your own research.
BTW - the Somerville/Halloran marriage in 1828 is for one of the twins. She had a few husbands/partners between 1812 and 1828 so reverting to her maiden name was not surprising. She may have had to wait 7yrs before claiming Dorsey was dead. No idea what happened to him although they had one son, Patrick, who died in 1838, age 21.
I agree the girls may have been in an orphanage of sorts but still think their birthdate was documented somewhere.
Many thanks for all your help, it's truly appreciated :-*
Di
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Yes, if they were in an orphanage we would likely find dob, date of admission, discharge, ... I am sure once we find the first hint of an official extant record it will all line up ....
There's always benefits from technological, but there's real history in working through real original records ... :) so much is lost when you don't know that there are comments at the beginning of the actual book or in the margins or in the exercise book put together by junior staff as a cheat sheet... I am thinking of Land Titles Office in Sydney when bdm were downstairs ;D as both were part of the then Registrar Generals Office...
JM
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Hi,
According to Phillis' death certificate (00886/1866) Her fathers name was given as Summerfield (sic) occupation Carpenter. Twice married in Sydney, first spouse unknown, 2nd Laurence Henry Halloran.
James Darcey who she married in 1812 was a Mariner of the ship Gov Macquarie. No idea what happened to him.
Could not find Phillis on 1828 census under Darcey/Halloran. Elizabeth on 1828 census under Elizabeth McGrath.
JLS7
Hi JLS7
Welcome to RootsChat, it's a great place for sharing family history.
Many thanks for the info you have shared.
I am sure it will help sort Lady Di's current quest.
You will need to make a couple of posts to be able to exchange Private Messages with others, so just log in, and pop a quick reply on this thread would work. :) I am sure Lady Di would want to compare notes with you.
JM
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Hi,
According to Phillis' death certificate (00886/1866) Her fathers name was given as Summerfield (sic) occupation Carpenter. Twice married in Sydney, first spouse unknown, 2nd Laurence Henry Halloran.
James Darcey who she married in 1812 was a Mariner of the ship Gov Macquarie. No idea what happened to him.
Could not find Phillis on 1828 census under Darcey/Halloran. Elizabeth on 1828 census under Elizabeth McGrath.
JLS7
Oh I'm sorry I missed this message :-[
Welcome to Rootschat JLS7
Thanks for the details from Phillis' death cert. At least her age at death (70) confirms her birth year as 1796.
Hope you enjoy Rootschat and all it has to offer.
Di
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Thank you for the welcome :)