RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Pendlewitch67 on Wednesday 10 March 21 23:03 GMT (UK)
-
Good evening
I have come across an 1841 census record which has left me puzzled. It records 10 people, one of whom is Reuben Brotherton born c 1841 residing at Clowes Buildings, Hunt's Bank, Manchester.
Page Number: 26
Piece/Folio: 573/16
Registration Number: HO107
However, when I research the address I have found one or two references:
Messrs Clowes House at Hunts Bank which, according to a book of plans and maps of Manchester dated 1866, was later the Manchester and Leeds Railway station.
1839-1842 : Leigh Hall, architect to the Manchester and Leeds Railway, Clowes’s Buildings, Hunt’s Bank, Manchester
A map dated 1892 - 1914 shows a workhouse beside the railway station. Could this be the building or was Clowes House turned into lodgings?
Does anybody have any information regarding this address, please?
Thank you.
Kind regards
Amanda
-
Do you mean because all the pages are crossed through, marked ‘not filled up’ or ‘paper lost’?
Or is your puzzle connected to the family?
-
Do you mean because all the pages are crossed through, marked ‘not filled up’ or ‘paper lost’?
Or is your puzzle connected to the family?
Hi
I found the transcript on Family Search so don't know about the pages being crossed out.
I was researching the names listed on that record.
-
“It records 10 people”
8 are from the Brotherton family & the other 2 are a married couple
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQLC-VQ3
Reuben was the son of Francis Brotherton & Mary Gabbott who married in 1838
-
This map from 1845, though it doesn't show Hunts Bank, shows many buildings in the area, not just the Workhouse.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102344087
(near Victoria Station/Long Millgate/Todd Sts - in the centre of the map near "COLLEGIATE")
As there are a number of advertisements in the 1840s about shares in the Manchester and Leeds Railway which have the contact address as "Clowes Buildings Hunts Bank", I would think it was a mixture of business and residential premises.
The description of the Enumeration District in the 1841 census you have is " ... along the right hand side of York Street to Long Millgate - from thence along the right hand side of Long Millgate to the Apple Market - from thence along the right hand side of the Apple Market to the river Irwell - from thence along the river Irwell to the Boundary of the township of Manchester and from thence along the said boundary to York Street aforesaid."
The next street on the census after your Clowes Buildings is Ducie St (which meets York St) which you can see on the map above.
-
In a history of Manchester published in the Hereford Journal on Wednesday, Jan. 17, 1849, it mentions the Clowes Building:
"... The connection between the lords of Garnston (?) [sic] and Manchester did not close here; for as numerous monuments in the interesting church of Weobley show to this day, these Peploes, mindful of early associations, intermarried with the family of Clowes, of Hunts Bank, Manchester. The last representatives of this ancient family were co-heiresses, maiden ladies, and they died probably about twenty years ago. The paternal mansion was a noble structure of the era of Charles the Second. It remained in all its pristine grandeur until a comparatively recent period, when it was converted into offices in connection with the Manchester and Leeds Railway, and finally it was razed to give place to the present Manchester railway station, which occupies the site. ..."
-
“It records 10 people”
8 are from the Brotherton family & the other 2 are a married couple
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQLC-VQ3
Reuben was the son of Francis Brotherton & Mary Gabbott who married in 1838
Hi
Reuben, the son of Francis and Mary, was in Sabden at the time of the 1841 census.
With an unusual name like Reuben I do wonder if this one is connected to my family as other Reubens are but as the information provided in 1841 is pretty vague I am trying to decipher who all of the other Brothertons are, as yet unsuccessfully.
Thank you.
-
This map from 1845, though it doesn't show Hunts Bank, shows many buildings in the area, not just the Workhouse.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102344087
(near Victoria Station/Long Millgate/Todd Sts - in the centre of the map near "COLLEGIATE")
As there are a number of advertisements in the 1840s about shares in the Manchester and Leeds Railway which have the contact address as "Clowes Buildings Hunts Bank", I would think it was a mixture of business and residential premises.
The description of the Enumeration District in the 1841 census you have is " ... along the right hand side of York Street to Long Millgate - from thence along the right hand side of Long Millgate to the Apple Market - from thence along the right hand side of the Apple Market to the river Irwell - from thence along the river Irwell to the Boundary of the township of Manchester and from thence along the said boundary to York Street aforesaid."
The next street on the census after your Clowes Buildings is Ducie St (which meets York St) which you can see on the map above.
Thank you.
The map is great. I will need to scrutinise it. I use maps from this website but not as old.
;D
-
Francis was a widower when he married Mary in 1838 which accounts for the 1841 entry showing children born before 1838. Their Ruben (spelling on entry) was 9mths old whereas the other Reuben was 6mths old.
The 6mth old appears to be with parents James & Elizabeth but no other birth reg.
-
Francis was a widower when he married Mary in 1838 which accounts for the 1841 entry showing children born before 1838. Their Ruben (spelling on entry) was 9mths old whereas the other Reuben was 6mths old.
The 6mth old appears to be with parents James & Elizabeth but no other birth reg.
Hi
I have found no other record for this Reuben. Either he wasn't registered or his birth registration hasn't been transcribed and added to the online databases. I tend to believe the latter. I have come across few ancestors where they have proven very difficult to track.
I will research these 10 further. They don't seem to be transcribed in family order as usual but I tend to believe they are all connected. They may not even be connected to my family but the fact there is a Reuben requires me to continue digging.
Thank you.
-
It’s puzzling. I thought at first that Thomas may have been his grandfather & Reuben had been entered at each address but the 1838 marriage entry with father as James kicked that theory into touch!!
-
They are all dittoed so maybe not the same surname.
There is a baptism
14th March 1841
Reuben Nicholson with parents James, a Hatter and Betsey.
A marriage 23rd December 1840
James Nicholson, Hatter, Oldham Road and Betsey Greenall, Hunts Bank.
Added:
The age isn’t right though :-\
Birth March quarter 1841 Reuben Nicholson
-
The age isn’t right though :-\
Birth March quarter 1841 Reuben Nicholson
It fits. 1841 census was taken in June so if he was born early January and birth registered March qtr - 6mths old would just about fit
I think you have solved that mystery Heywood - particularly given James occupation
-
That’s good to know, Carole.
I was thinking the census was April or maybe Reuben was six weeks rather than six months.
Yes, I think it should be Nicholson - the names, the occupation and the address all support that.
-
That’s good to know, Carole.
I was thinking the census was April or maybe Reuben was six weeks rather than six months.
Yes, I think it should be Nicholson - the names, the occupation and the address all support that.
Hi
So which of them is a Brotherton, please?
Thanks.
-
Neither. Wrongly transcribed. See reply 11 above. Enumerator has incorrectly “dittoed” names as Brotherton
-
Neither. Wrongly transcribed. See reply 11 above. Enumerator has incorrectly “dittoed” names as Brotherton
Where has Brotherton come from then? Sorry, am I being a bit dim? If they have been dittoed isn't there a correct entry.
Thanks.
::)
-
The way the image reads is:
Tho Brotherton 29 Porter yes
Mary (do) 30 Wife no
Richd (do) 21 Railway Guard yes
Margt (do) 12 yes
[new page]
Martha (do) 5 nothing yes
James (do) 30 Hatter yes
Elizth(do) 27 yes
Reuben (do) 6months yes
-
Maddy,
You have included the status of the first two people who are the 1841 census who are John and Mary Croston.
The first Brotherton female is ‘Margt’ not Mary and there is no mention that she is Thomas’ wife. It is likely that she is though. :)
Thomas is 59yrs a Watchman and born in county
Margaret is also born in county
There are baptisms to Thomas and Margaret Brotherton in Ribchester but Thomas is a Weaver
Richard 23rd Jan 1820
Then there is Margaret Ann 1829 baptised in Manchester - Thomas is a labourer.
These might be the ones here although I can’t see Martha but you would have to check and see if they are in other censuses perhaps.
-
The way the image reads is:
Tho Brotherton 29 Porter yes
Mary (do) 30 Wife no
Richd (do) 21 Railway Guard yes
Margt (do) 12 yes
[new page]
Martha (do) 5 nothing yes
James (do) 30 Hatter yes
Elizth(do) 27 yes
Reuben (do) 6months yes
Hi Maddy
Thank you.
That's great. Pretty frustrating that the transcript on Family Search is in a different order do you don't know the household grouping or, as in this case, whether they are related at all. Nowadays that enumerator would get the sack.
I have found in 1851 in Manchester Thomas, Margaret and Margaret aged 22. As there are often inaccuracies I am beginning to wonder if they may actually be correct.
Thomas, Margaret, Richard,Margaret and Martha one group and then James, Elizabeth and Reuben another.
-
Hi Maddy
Thank you.
That's great. Pretty frustrating that the transcript on Family Search is in a different order do you don't know the household grouping or, as in this case, whether they are related at all. Nowadays that enumerator would get the sack.
Unfortunately, that information is wrong. Please read my message.
-
The units from the census are:
John Croston 29yrs
Mary -do - 30 yrs
//
Thos Brotherton 50 yrs
Margt -do- 48 yrs
Richd -do- 21 yrs
Marg - do- 12 yrs
Martha -do- 5 yrs
/
James -do- 30 yrs
Elizth - do- 27yrs
Reuben -do- 6 months
/
Jas Summers 66 yrs
Elizth -do- 71 yrs
//
-
They are all dittoed so maybe not the same surname.
There is a baptism
14th March 1841
Reuben Nicholson with parents James, a Hatter and Betsey.
A marriage 23rd December 1840
James Nicholson, Hatter, Oldham Road and Betsey Greenall, Hunts Bank.
Added:
The age isn’t right though :-\
Birth March quarter 1841 Reuben Nicholson
This is interesting. It is from the damaged census so difficult to read.
1851 2227/ 655/12
Chapel Street Manchester
Thomas Brotherton 60 yrs labourer
Margaret -do- 58 yrs
Margert -do- daur 29 yrs (age not clear and married?)
Martha Greenalls relative 20 yrs
-
They are all dittoed so maybe not the same surname.
There is a baptism
14th March 1841
Reuben Nicholson with parents James, a Hatter and Betsey.
A marriage 23rd December 1840
James Nicholson, Hatter, Oldham Road and Betsey Greenall, Hunts Bank.
Added:
The age isn’t right though :-\
Birth March quarter 1841 Reuben Nicholson
This is interesting. It is from the damaged census so difficult to read.
1851 2227/ 655/12
Chapel Street Manchester
Thomas Brotherton 60 yrs labourer
Margaret -do- 58 yrs
Margert -do- daur 29 yrs (age not clear and married?)
Martha Greenalls relative 20 yrs
The transcript gives Margarets age as 22 which would fit.
Thank you ;D
-
The units from the census are:
John Croston 29yrs
Mary -do - 30 yrs
//
Thos Brotherton 50 yrs
Margt -do- 48 yrs
Richd -do- 21 yrs
Marg - do- 12 yrs
Martha -do- 5 yrs
/
James -do- 30 yrs
Elizth - do- 27yrs
Reuben -do- 6 months
/
Jas Summers 66 yrs
Elizth -do- 71 yrs
//
As mentioned earlier Richard is probably the son baptised in Ribchester in 1820. Weaving would fit Thomas' occupation for the area. If Margaret and Martha were born elsewhere to Ribchester their baptisms may just not be available on the same website.
-
I don’t know how interested you are in these Manchester Brothertons but here is a bit more possible information. Some is repeated from earlier.
Marriage 1819 Ribchester
Thomas Brotherton and Margaret Greenalls -witness Richard Greenalls
Ribchester baptisms to Thomas (Weaver) and Margaret
1820, Richard - abode Ribchester
1824, James - Ribchester
Then there are others to ‘Thomas and Margaret’ in Longridge, Colne etc.
Manchester
1829 Margaret Ann Brotherton to Thomas (Labourer) and Margaret
1851 - already mentioned
Chapel Street - Thomas, 2 Margarets and relative Martha Greenalls
1849 - marriage Leeds
Richard Brotherton, Railway Officer - father Thomas Brotherton, Gentleman
Hannah Norbury
1851 census Leeds
Richard is a Railway Guard b Ribchester
1855 - marriage
Charles Barker
Margaret Ann Brotherton 26 yrs - father Thomas Brotherton , Joiner
Addresses for both Chapel Street/Lloyd Street
Witnesses Richard Greenall and Martha Brotherton
Added:
It could be that Elizabeth Greenall who married James Nicholson, and was the mother of Reuben was the daughter of Margaret Greenall Brotherton. This would then make them a family group in that 1841 census.
Quite a bit to sort out :)
-
I don’t know how interested you are in these Manchester Brothertons but here is a bit more possible information. Some is repeated from earlier.
Marriage 1819 Ribchester
Thomas Brotherton and Margaret Greenalls -witness Richard Greenalls
Ribchester baptisms to Thomas (Weaver) and Margaret
1820, Richard - abode Ribchester
1824, James - Ribchester
Then there are others to ‘Thomas and Margaret’ in Longridge, Colne etc.
Manchester
1829 Margaret Ann Brotherton to Thomas (Labourer) and Margaret
1851 - already mentioned
Chapel Street - Thomas, 2 Margarets and relative Martha Greenalls
1849 - marriage Leeds
Richard Brotherton, Railway Officer - father Thomas Brotherton, Gentleman
Hannah Norbury
1851 census Leeds
Richard is a Railway Guard b Ribchester
1855 - marriage
Charles Barker
Margaret Ann Brotherton 26 yrs - father Thomas Brotherton , Joiner
Addresses for both Chapel Street/Lloyd Street
Witnesses Richard Greenall and Martha Brotherton
Quite a bit to sort out :)
Thank you.
I had a quick look into Thomas and Margaret. I believe Thomas may be the son of Peter and Ann, born in Colne but Peter originally from elsewhere. At the moment I don't believe they are connected to my family but I will continue to dig to verify.
I will also investigate James, Mary and Reuben further. Reuben was who got me started in the first place.
;D
-
Our posts crossed.
I added a bit re the Greenall connection.
-
England Select Births and Christenings
Thomas Brotherton baptised 1791, Ribchester with father Henry Brotherton
Lancs opc - same one transcribed as ‘Bretherton’ - abode Hothersall.
There is another but that is 1784 - father James
-
England Select Births and Christenings
Thomas Brotherton baptised 1791, Ribchester with father Henry Brotherton
Lancs opc - same one transcribed as ‘Bretherton’ - abode Hothersall.
There is another but that is 1784 - father James
I didn't spot the christening at Ribchester. That does change things as my Brothertons were from the Pendle Forest and just down the road from Ribchester. I have a family headed by a Reuben who left to go to Manchester also 1841. I think there maybe a cousin connection, Reuben being born 1790.
Plenty to do.
Thank you ;D
-
Maddy,
You have included the status of the first two people who are the 1841 census who are John and Mary Croston.
My humblest apologies, I don't know what happened there except rushing and not paying attention. Senior moment as they say. :-[ :-[
-
The layout is confusing with all those lines crossing.
The transcription doesn’t help either but we got there in the end. (I hope :) )
-
The layout is confusing with all those lines crossing.
The transcription doesn’t help either but we got there in the end. (I hope :) )
Maddy,
You have included the status of the first two people who are the 1841 census who are John and Mary Croston.
My humblest apologies, I don't know what happened there except rushing and not paying attention. Senior moment as they say. :-[ :-[
Thank you for all of your help. It's certainly opened my eyes to the odd inaccuracies of the tranacripts.
;D