RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Loquitur on Sunday 14 March 21 19:48 GMT (UK)
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The chat room users suggest I post a request for help tracing an ancestor from the military which has puzzled me for years.
George Smith married Caroline in England sometime before or on 1862. He was a soldier in the Royal Artillery.
His son George Arthur Smith was born in England 1862 (Scottish census records 1891, 1901 and 1911). He relocated from England to Old Monklands, Scotland and married Margaret Cameron on 1 June 1892.
I cannot not trace the origins of the George Smith senior family in England.
The marriage certificate of The son list the father and mother having been deceased in 1892. The father’s occupation is listed as a soldier in Royal Artillery. Presumably George Smith senior died between 1862 to 1892. Unfortunately the maiden name of his mother is not really legible but did look like McLennon. But the death certificate of the George junior and his marriage certificate give different looking maiden names of the mother.
Any help you can provide me tracing the mother and father - possibly from or around Lancashire- would be much appreciated.
Extracts from the death certificate 1923 and marriage certificate 1892 are from Scotland’s People.
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Extracts of the records. Apologies.
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Could this be them?
Marriage
9th July 1857
Thorpe Hamlet, Norfolk
George Smith full age bachelor sergeant of Royal Artillery St James David Smith mechanic
Caroline Lemon full age spinster tailoress Thorpe Hamlet John Lemon coal merchant
Birth
George Arthur Smith
Sep 1860
Elham, Kent
mmn Lemon
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It’s a possibility but most of the extracts seems to say soldier or private.
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According to the death certificate in 1923 George Arthur was 61 putting his birth around 1862
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I personally think that the marriage found by Comberton is spot on! I also thought when checking mothers surname on your attachments that it was Lemon.
George Arthur was also in Old Monkland in 1881 when age is 20 i.e. born latter half 1860 or early 1861 which ties in with the Sept.qtr.1860 birth Comberton located.
Annette
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Thank you Annette7, I didn't want to add information if it was not the correct family.
In case it is, George is in the military on the 1851 & 1861 census entries, also Caroline and children separately in 1861.
1851 1589/452/22 Geo Smith
1861 552/58/2 G Smith
1861 552/77/39 C Smith, R Smith, G Smith
1871 Norwich 1809/13/20
George 42 Ireland Belfast watchman
Caroline 32 Norwich
George A 10 Kent Shorncliffe
William J 4 Devon, Devonport
Harry R 2 Norwich
Children
Rosetta Sarah 1858 Elham, baptised Norfolk
George Arthur 1860 Elham
Lavinia Alexandra 1863 Farnham, Surrey, baptised Aldershot
1864 Rosetta and Lavinia buried two days apart in Aldershot
William John David 1866 Stoke Damerel, baptised Devonport
Harry Robert 1869 Norwich, baptised Norwich, father a watchman
There is a military record that could be George senior
George Smith b 1826 Shankill, Belfast
Service number 820
Attested 1847
4th Bde Royal Reg. of Artillery, matches 1866 baptism
Hope this is useful
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Many thanks
Can I ask for the source of the records?
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They are from Ancestry or FindMyPast depending on the record type or area. Images available to see.
Let me know if you need further details.
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As most of my record research is Scottish and ancestry or FindMyPast don’t have a lot of Scottish records I don’t have full access. What would be the best site to purchase a subscription and obtain documentary evidence?
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I'd found exactly the same as Comberton so his posts have saved me typing it all up. So George left the Royal Artillery sometime between 1866 an 1869.
Think George died Dec.qtr.1873 Norwich.
Annette
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Many thanks indeed to both of you.
Which source is the best to take out a subscription to progress the inquiries?
Thanks
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Sorry, looks like the 1873 death is this man.
Most of the records this time came from FindMyPast but both are useful depending on what you are looking for. You can find the census entries on FamilySearch which is free and maybe some others too. It's worth a look, you just have to register.
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I couldn’t find anything on familysearch so I set up what I already know on there. I will have another look tonight using the pointers you provided.
Below is the link to tree I started on the English paternal grandfather side.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/GC3X-F24
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FamilySearch result
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/GC3X-HC3
from Historical Records Filter by collections
No Results for Name: Caroline Lemon Marriage Year (Range): 1800 - 1862 Spouse name: George Smith
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Try this
Caroline Lemon
birthplace Horning, Norfolk
birthyear 1839-1840
spouse George Smith
country England
First 2 items the marriage and Caroline in 1851
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Is Gorg a spelling mistake on transcription
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(http://)
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Working through this
I found another George Smith possibly senior at -“The Barracks”
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M79P-4HL
1941 census age 5 born 1836
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How would be able to see the other members of that household in 1841 from same census record.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M79P-4HL
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To find others you need to see the image but he doesn't seem to be with family, maybe he was an orphan. Maybe you can try to find his father David Smith who was a mechanic.
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Thank you that makes a lot of sense.
So George Arthur born circa 1860
May be seen on the 1861 census, 1871 census 1881
He appears on the Scottish census 1891 onwards
The Smiths
George senior born circa 1836 should appear on 1841, 1851, 1961, 1871 census albeit child to adult to father?
THe Lemons
Caroline Lemon born circa 1839 Would appear on a different census record for 1841, 1851: married 1857 and the
George and Caroline
Caroline and George family unit appears until 1861, 1871 and 1881census record albeit George after is 20 and relocated to Old Monkland.
Does this sound logical?
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It's coming together nicely.
The 1841 census is very interesting as Caroline is in Pockthorpe in 1851 and Ancestry lists it as St James Parish which is the address George puts on the 1857 marriage certificate. The birth year is way off in 1841 but could it have meant to say 15?
George with his mother and sister in 1861 and parents and brothers in 1871, then in Scotland 1881 onwards. Still not found George senior and Caroline after 1871
Baptism
Caroline Lemon
born 23rd January 1839
baptised 24th February 1839
Horning, Norfolk
parents John & Rosetta nee Bush of Ludham
John was a publican
1841 census for Caroline etc is Caroline Leman b 1839 Norfolk
The 2 Norfolk baptisms are on FamilySearch
Rosetta Sarah Smith
birthyear 1858-1859
fill in parents names
this one has an image available (camera icon)
Harry Robert Smith
birthyear 1869-70
parents names
If you have any trouble finding the 1851/1861 for George & Caroline let me know
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There is another record associated with Rosetta withe same husband?
I found this person on FamilySearch:
Rosetta Willamot
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/MS68-GHH
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Apologies for sending you down the wrong road. Willimott is confirmed as mmn of William Benjamin Lemon 1848.(1851 census)
Baptism for Sarah Ann Lemon 1837 has John Lemon jr and Rosetta Willimot of Horning and Ludham and he was a publican.
Same details otherwise to Carolines baptism so Bush must have been a mistake by the official.
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There is in fact a third Rosetta associated with the same husband
I found this person on FamilySearch:
Rosetta Willemite
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/LDXW-9BY
Could they be the same person ?
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Are you able to view an entire transcribed family household for a head of house on familysearch or just individual entries?
Thanks
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Yes I think it is just a variation of her surname. Did you see that you can access the image of the marriage on FamilySearch? Just click the camera and you can download to keep. When you get a list of names on a census transcription, you should be able to click on each name to bring them to the top of the display.
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If they married in 1957,
The family would appear on the 1851 census
I have found the 1871 Census Record for Bull Close Road, St Paul’s Parish, Norwich.
I can’t seem to locate the 1861 census for them.
So you have a location for 1861?
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They were in barracks in 1861 but separate records.
1851 census for George
George Smith
birthplace Antrim
birthyear 1827-1827
residence Woolwich 1851-1851
He was a patient in Army Hospital
1861 for George
G Smith
birthplace Ireland
birthyear 1827-1827
residence Elham 1861-1861
1861 for Caroline and children
C Smith
birthplace Horning
birthyear 1839-1839
residence Elham 1861-1861
includes R Smith 3 born Shorncliffe, Kent
G Smith 9 months born Shorncliffe, Kent
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Making a lot of progress now.
Thank you for your help and patience.
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most of the extracts seems to say soldier or private.
1 is 1st hand info. (George), the other 2 are 2nd hand info. (the son & an unknown) if it helps?
Annie
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“Lavinia Alexandra 1863 Farnham, Surrey, baptised Aldershot
1864 Rosetta and Lavinia buried two days apart in Aldershot”
Check out this record I found on the Ancestry mobile app https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23416949?h=193cb2
Could Rosetta have died in Jan 1949 at Norwich?
[/quote]
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Sadly no. Because George was in the Army when Lavinia was born, her baptism is listed in
British Armed Forces And Overseas Birth & Baptisms
Lavinia Alexandra Smith
29th March 1863
Aldershot
George & Caroline
Sergt A Battery 4th Bryade Rl Artillery
Residence Permanent Barracks
From
British Armed Forces And Overseas Deaths & Burials
Lavinia A Smith
1Y 5M
Burial date 31st August 1864
Burial place Aldershot
Residence Permanent Barracks R A
On the image of the burial it says against the entry
buried in 65 with her sister
Each entry has a number against it for number in cemetery and her entry should have been 67 based on next entry being 68. I went back a page to number 65 and found
Rosetta S Smith age 6 buried 29th August 1864, same residence. For some reason it does not come up in a search.
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Where did you find
William John David 1866 Stoke Damerel, baptised Devonport
He wasn’t on the 1871 census.
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Could this be him but no parents are listed ?
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8912&h=51624201&tid=&pid=&queryId=a8de1605c3319a5bd5345af568d1ec02&usePUB=true&_phsrc=TAP3&_phstart=successSource
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1871 Norwich
George 42 Ireland Belfast watchman
Caroline 32 Norwich
George A 10 Kent Shorncliffe
William J 4 Devon, Devonport
Harry R 2 Norwich
You can search the GRO for births and get the full names and mothers maiden names.
GRO is General Records Office for English and Welsh records, you need to register but it is free to search
His Baptism is also a military record
6th May 1866
Devonport, Devon
George & Caroline
Gunner 4th Brigade R A
According to his military record George was reduced to Gunner in 1866, doesn't give reason why.
Added yes that's him
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So you have the webpage for the English records on the GRO search?
Also what source do you use for searching for military records?
Thanks
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His military file is on FindMyPast, also the Armed Forces baptisms and burials.
If you would like to share your email with me by personal message, I would be happy to send you the records I have found. If you prefer not to, that's fine , I would not be offended. Happy to keep looking. An interesting family to research.