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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: SarahMacleod on Thursday 25 March 21 17:06 GMT (UK)
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Im very new here so please forgive me if this isn't the place to ask for help!
Ive just began my Family search history after my Dad died and I am obsessed. Currently stuck with 2 separate branches of my tree.
My Great Great Grandfather was Martin Powlam. My family have always said he was Polish Russian. he married my Gr Gr Gran in North Riding Yorkshire in 1909. From here I can trace him right up until hid death. However I can trace nothing of him prior to 1909 so Ive not even any idea when he arrived in the UK.
In the 1911 census he has written he was born in Finland and his nationality is Russian. His Father was Karl Powlan (variations of surname throughout the years but even that hasn't helped my search) and no name recorded anywhere for his MOther. I can find no siblings of his or neighbours with the same name. Can anyone point me in the direction of where to look?
Many Many thanks
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Welcome! Glad you made it.
The very first listing you see on familysearch.... is that the same man? Russian sailor from Finland?
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?q.givenName=Martin&q.surname=Powlam&q.birthLikePlace=finland&q.fatherGivenName=karl&count=20&offset=0&m.defaultFacets=on&m.queryRequireDefault=on&m.facetNestCollectionInCategory=on
Just checking , sure you've seen that. I ask because it seems so similar but names a wife and mother...was his wife Catherine?
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Hi Alan
Thank you so much
Yes I have seen that. The 'Mother' is actually his Mother in Law and the child is my Great Gran Margaret. They seem to change the names around every census, marriage, birth etc
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They married under the names Kate McDuff & Martin POWHAN in Middlesborough but children registered as Powlam mmn Duff
John
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Here's the only children I could find in the GRO under that spelling so far:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
POWLAM, ANDREW DUFF
GRO Reference: 1912 M Quarter in MIDDLESBROUGH Volume 09D Page 1130
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
POWLAM, MARGARET DUFF
GRO Reference: 1910 J Quarter in MIDDLESBROUGH Volume 09D Page 597
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FindMyPast have marriage indexed under Kate McDuff/Martin Powhan
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Thanks all. Have all of the above info so far.
They moved to Scotland Paisley and had more of their children here. Some are under Powlam, Powlan and Powhan but have thoroughly researched all. Its more when did he arrive in the uk - I cant trace him any further back as have nothing on his parents or if he had siblings ???
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In 1911 they live with Catherine's mother Marguerite McDuff age 56 from Coatbridge Lanark Scotland, Lanarkshire. Catherine was 27 from Middlesbrough, Yorkshire and Martin was 29 from Finland. Margaret gets recorded as same spelling as mother Marguerite.
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Had a try for a possible naturalisation certificate using Pow* at https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/naturalisation-british-citizenship/#8-naturalisations-1870-1948, but no obvious match.
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FindMyPast have marriage indexed under Kate McDuff/Martin Powhan
So does the GRO typed index and FreeBMD.
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Catherine McDuff's mother Marguerite from Scotland... her maiden-name is Brown
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
MCDUFF, CATHERINE BROWN
GRO Reference: 1883 D Quarter in MIDDLESBROUGH Volume 09D Page 555
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Because it is the only entry with those names I believe this is the marriage of Marguerite Brown.
MARGARET BROWN
TERENCE JOHN MCDUFF
1869
652/2 104
Old Monkland (Middle District)
This is very close to Coatbridge where Marguerite Brown is from.
I will continue to cross-reference and double-check. This would only make her 15 according to census age , but that could be out by some years.
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DNA may be helpful given potential for the surname to have been originally somewhat different from Powlam/Powlan/Powhan.
Some Finnish surnames starting P, in case it could be an anglicised version of one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Finnish-language_surnames&pagefrom=Metsola#mw-pages
http://www.americanlastnames.us/last-names/Finnish/P/P-1.html
Have you tried any of the resources listed at https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Finland_Online_Genealogy_Records ?
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Yes Alan that’s right Margaret’s surname is Brown. From census records I can see Terence was born in Ireland but again I just hit a dead end with him. Without any facts I would just be guessing which ancestors are mine. It’s so frustrating
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And yes Scotmum I am just waiting on my DNA results. Should hopefully only be 2 or 3 weeks now until they are ready.
I had a look at some of the Finnish resources and there were names that could fit Martin Powlam but again I would just be guessing or making them fit with no real facts to base them on
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So, with the details that Alan has mentioned (the family in 1891 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7RMF-Y3Z), your next step would be to look at the marriage reg for Terence and Margaret. You can view this online on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk Scottish marriage certs include the names of both parents for bride and groom.
Monica
Added: Welcome to RootsChat from me too :)
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Sarah, Terence died 1912? Wonder where he was for 1911 as he was not with wife Margaret by the look of it.
Monica
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Also listed under Catholic marriages 1869 on SP site
TERENCE JOHN MCDUFF
MARGARET BROWN
11/9/1869
Coatbridge, St Patrick's
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Thanks Monica I already have their marriage certificate and unfortunately as the time they got married the records weren’t great. There is no parent details.
It simply states on this day these two were married by me and present were Andrew Brown and Bridget Cooney but doesn’t tell me if they were parents or witnesses.
And both of those names wouldn’t help me either with Terence I’m afraid
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Unusual spelling of the surname for the early born children's birth regs, MCILDUFF:
James 1870 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQBC-752
Mary 1872 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQHL-W29
Julian Durnan 1874 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQHN-QX2
Terence is also AWOL for 1871:
Margaret B Mcduff 23 Head b. Gartshouse, Lanarkshire
James Mcduff 1 Son b. Coatbridge
Address: Reids Land Canal Bank Depot No 13 , Coatbridge
Monica
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Thanks Monica I already have their marriage certificate and unfortunately as the time they got married the records weren’t great. There is no parent details.
Sounds like you may have looked at the RC parish entry for the marriage rather than the statutory record for the marriage?
Monica
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If you sign in to SP site and go to this link...is this the file you already bought and checked?
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=People&surname=mcduff&forename=terence&forename_so=starts&from_year=&to_year=&surname_so=exact&record_type=stat_marriages
In 1869 Scottish marriages almost never list witnesses but almost always list parents. (not every time though).
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This is a clip from the statutory register for the 1869 marriage:
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Terence died as follows:
MCDUFF, TERENCE 63
GRO Reference: 1912 M Quarter in MIDDLESBROUGH Volume 09D Page 801
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This is so helpful I am stunned. I can’t thank you both enough. Can I be so cheeky and ask you if that would be the same with my other ancestors marriage ‘certificate’ that I have that has no details at all just their names and ages.
GALBREATH, CHARLES (Old Parish Registers Marriages 565/ 20 190 Houston and Killellan) Page 190 of 366 20/01/1827
Does that mean there should be a record for the above that would tell me the parents?
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Yes, it's there also:
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&event=M&record_type%5B0%5D=opr_marriages&church_type=Old%20Parish%20Registers&dl_cat=church&dl_rec=church-banns-marriages&surname=galbraith&surname_so=syn&forename=charles&forename_so=starts&spouse_name_so=exact&from_year=1827&to_year=1827&record=Church%20of%20Scotland%20%28old%20parish%20registers%29%20Roman%20Catholic%20Church%20Other%20churches
Only records after 1855 have a high likelyhood of listing parents. Occasionally you get lucky with a father's name and occupation from pre-1855. Always worth a look for clues.
Lists his wife's name without having to buy it..
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Mmmmmm....no not really ::)
Official statutory registration began in Scotland later than England & Wales, from 1855. Before that you are reliant on parish registers. Unfortunately the info on these can be very scarse, very often no more than a line with just the names of bride and groom.
When you have a marriage pre 1855, I suggest you look for a death post 1855 if this applies. Scottish death certs from 1855 include the names of the deceased person's mother and father, if known to the informant.
Monica
Added: Sorry, Alan. See you have added more to your post now.
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Sorry...it's hard to cut and paste this kind of thing.
List of kids from Charles and Marion:
copyright image removed
Duly noted , sorry.
Catherine Galbraith
1827–1886
John Galbraith
1829–
Mary Galbraith
1831–
Marion Galbraith
1834–
Arthur Galbraith
1834–
Jean Galbraith
1835–
Charles Galbraith
1844–
angus Galbraith
1844–
Robert Galbraith
1848–
Malcolm Galbraith
1851–
Birth of Charles Galbreath:
CHARLES GALBRAITH
Parents:
JOHN GALBRAITH/MARION ADAM
M
12/05/1800
500/
20 166
New or East Kilpatrick
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Sarah, we seemed to have moved away from your original request for info on Martin Powham. I see now he died in Paisley, Scotland in 1950. Was his mother's name not known to the informant who reported his death?
With wife Kate McDuff, hopefully you have more details to follow up on. Looks like her ancestry will take you to Ireland on both her maternal (Brown) and paternal (McDuff) lines....
I see you have your tree on Ancestry. There are a number of trees on the family of Margaret Brown such as this one www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/19453904/person/823163758/facts These include death dates for Margaret's parents. As mentioned, their death certs should be on SP letting you work back to the next generation. In the main, Margaret's mother is showing as Julia Durnan (suggest with Durnan you search where possible with wilcards suchs as Dur* or Dor*).
On the McDuff side, we have now Terence's parents as James and Mary. Not sure yet on her maiden name.
Monica
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I was thinking if its Martin's brother then the doc could be checked for parentage. The Andrew Powlam mentioned earlier was born 1912 and this one 1884. Do we know who this Andrew is already?
ANDREW POWLAM
53
1964
573/1 824
Paisley
MARTIN POWLAM
64
1950
573/1 364
Paisley
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Andrew was his son. I am using my phone tonight but when I am back at work in the morning I am very excited to input all of this new information.
I truly can’t thank you all enough.
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Sorry I had a math failure leading me to think it was an 1880's birth. Oopsie. I'll make up for it by, umm, er...
Here's his address from 1930:
MARTIN POWLAM
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE 99 NEILSTON ROAD
PAISLEY
1930
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There are these old posts on the McDuff family by someone connected to the family www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=226972.0
Monica
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Was it discussed that Andrew married Mary McNiell?
ANDREW POWLAM
parent: MARTIN
MARY MCNIELL
1932
644/10 1742
Blythswood
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I think the Powlam family came to Scotland at some point after 1911 and the children went on to marry and make their lives there etc. If you search the surname on SP, it looks to be the only family with that surname on SP.
Monica
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On FS site I noticed there is an old Finnish name called Poläm (Polam).
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With mention of Martin's father having been a Karl, and given the chance Powlam and variations were shortened form of actual surname, here is an 1872 marriage in Finland to keep in mind in case some day you can connect it to Powlam:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F8RX-ZXX
Karl Mattsson Peolamaki to Ida Sofia Michelsdotter Makela
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There are Ellis Island arrivals from Finland with names like: Sigrud Palum , parents , Kaarlo Palum
Karl Powlam / Kaarlo Palum .... hmmm
It seems that name variation is related.
Top entry:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?q.givenName=karl&q.surname=powlam&q.birthLikePlace=finland&q.otherSurname=powlam&count=20&offset=0&m.defaultFacets=on&m.queryRequireDefault=on&m.facetNestCollectionInCategory=on
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Martin was sailor on 1911 census, was this the same occ. as on his marriage in 1909 & what was the occ. of his father Karl & was he deceased?
Annie
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There are a number of trees on the family of Margaret Brown such as this one www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/19453904/person/823163758/facts These include death dates for Margaret's parents. As mentioned, their death certs should be on SP letting you work back to the next generation. In the main, Margaret's mother is showing as Julia Durnan (suggest with Durnan you search where possible with wilcards suchs as Dur* or Dor*).
Monica
I'm confused...On the marriage cert. for Margaret in 1869 the surname of mother Judy looks like Jamieson :-\
Annie
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On his death cert it says that Martin was a boiler fixerman. His father Karl a seaman.
They spell Martin's surname Powlam (underlined L) and Karl Powham (underlined H)
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Martin's occ. looks like Boiler Fireman?
Pity it's not much help with mother not named.
Annie
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They spell Martin's surname Powlam (underlined L) and Karl Powham (underlined H)
Recorded under both spellings...
POWHAN MARTIN 64 - 1950 - 573/1 364 Paisley
POWLAM MARTIN 64 - 1950 - 573/1 364 Paisley
Annie
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In the Scottish record there are fishermen and then there are seaman... the latter being military in nature,
Do you think that is the case with Karl Powlam?
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I'm sure any I've found as 'Seaman' have been either RN or MN otherwise as you say 'Fisherman'.
Annie
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I did not recall us discussing a Julia Powlam but I see she was present and marked as daughter. Not in the GRO because she was born in Paisley Scotland 1918...
JULIA POWLAM
F
1918
573/1 1471
Paisley
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Yes Martin was listed as a sailor on his marriage certificate and his father a seaman.
Julia was his daughter she moved to New York after Martin and Kate died and she died there. My Gran had gone out to join her and they were working for the church.
Annie yes I found those names as you say ones to keep in mind should I get any further information.
Would anyone know if when my DNA results come in they would help with this?
Thank you
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When you look at those names it seems like Hinnon/Hinson or similar and Jamieson ... but when you look close its not so clear-cut. It could be other. We do have a hand-writing deciphering department here at this amazing site..
There is no Judy Jamieson on the SP record ...it's possible that Thomas Brown and Judy are from Ireland.
Sarah do you know for sure that name is Jamieson?
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Would anyone know if when my DNA results come in they would help with this?
Nobody can answer to that as it all depends on others who've done the test.
If you've tested with ancestry you can also upload to other sites but if you've tested elsewhere you can't upload to ancestry.
However, you may be lucky to find out a bit on ethnicity but again I believe it's all down to who else has tested?
Annie
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Ah I see. I’ve done the test through ancestry and now just patiently (impatiently) waiting on results
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I asked the hand-writing gods for judgement on those maiden names. ;D
Will report back.
Back already with a repose from the hand-writing deciphering volunteer department here!
Early analysis:
Hinnon
Jennion
Both names that occur a little wee bit in Scotland, another wee bit in Ireland but mostly by volume in England. Preliminary searches for a Judith/Judy Jennion have come up empty for me so far.
This is early in the analysis ... either or both could turn out to be other.
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Terence is also AWOL for 1871:
Possibly because he had 'done a runner' in February 1871.
According to various newspapers of timescale, a Terence M'Ilduff, of the Depot, Coatbridge, "belted", and has not been heard of since
He had apparently returned home in the early hours from a drinking bout and his wife pointed out the foolishness of his conduct. He didn't relish this advice and put her out of the house then locked it. He then proceeded to smash every piece of furniture and put the fragments on the fire.
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Some police forces still hold copies of Aliens Registers, which commencd in 1914. Whilst there is no indication if any of the registers survive for North Yorkshire, it looks as if North Yorkshire police records are not held by the police and instead are held as follows, and so it might be worth conacting them to ask (assuming, but you would need to check, it also included aliens who had arrived before 1914):
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Scotmum oh wow!! Should i be horrified or amused ??? ;D
He was back in the household in 1891 and was a witness at the wedding of Martin Powlam and Kate McDuff in 1909
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Scotmum oh wow!! Should i be horrified or amused ??? ;D
Such is life ;D. It's stories like this that 'adds meat to the bones' of family history research. We obviously have no influence over what or ancestors did or didn't do in their lifetime, and whilst we might not always approve of it, we need to acknowledge the bad with the good, otherwise we only complete part of the picture that forms the rich tapestry of their life.
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Scotmum oh wow!! Should i be horrified or amused ??? ;D
He was back in the household in 1891 and was a witness at the wedding of Martin Powlam and Kate McDuff in 1909
Hi
I have some information of Terence McDuff. I'm researching my McIlduff ancestors and as its unusual I keep a record of anything that I might find relevent.
Terence John McIlduff (thats his surname on christening record) christened 13th August 1842 in Armagh Ireland son of James McIlduff and Mary Heenan (various spellings of mothers surname)
I've been able to find 8 children for Terence and Margaret Brown including Kate/Catherine.
Also have 6 children for James and Mary Heenan. Family from Portadown area of Armagh - as are my own McIlduffs so assume somewhere down the line they're connected. Don't have much info on this family but what i have I can send to you if you're interested
Fiona
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Fiona please yes that would be fantastic! Many thanks for this!
I will look over what I know tomorrow and will add this on.
Much appreciated :)
Sarah
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Fiona please yes that would be fantastic! Many thanks for this!
I will look over what I know tomorrow and will add this on.
Much appreciated :)
Sarah
Hi Sarah
Pm me your email and I’ll send what I have :)
Fiona
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Fiona please yes that would be fantastic! Many thanks for this!
I will look over what I know tomorrow and will add this on.
Much appreciated :)
Sarah
Hi Sarah
Did you get email I sent ?
Fiona
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Update - I finally got my DNA results and in there I found I had 10% Baltic DNA.
I found records in the poor law indexes in Paisley which Martin Powlam has completed claiming benefit relief in 1927. On there he has written he was born in Riga, Russia. Just to confuse me further!
He has also written his parents were Edward Powlam, Seaman and Julia ?? So he mustn’t have known her surname?
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...or his father's forename - so how reliable is his mother's? Your first post gave his father as Karl Powlam...and latest post says Edward.
Anyhow, now you have your DNA results, it might be worth attempting some colour clustering - see https://www.danaleeds.com/dna-color-clustering-the-leeds-method-for-easily-visualizing-matches/.
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Update - I finally got my DNA results and in there I found I had 10% Baltic DNA.
I found records in the poor law indexes in Paisley which Martin Powlam has completed claiming benefit relief in 1927. On there he has written he was born in Riga, Russia. Just to confuse me further!
He has also written his parents were Edward Powlam, Seaman and Julia ?? So he mustn’t have known her surname?
Riga is now in Latvia.
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...
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Do you know the circumstances of his arrival in the UK? Did he jump ship?
This is a Family Search record for a Frank Alexander Palum who went to the US via London ( I thought but now cannot find it now, in 1909). He was born in Finland Russia in 1887.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPRT-CR41
I think if you could recall anything in family tales about the arrival it may help......
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Have you tried doing the location search option for your DNA matches
There is often confusion about locations
I have a great grandfather from Riga
Its worth trying latvia. russia + finland as options to see if any of your matches have ancestors recorded from any of those places.
If you do a surname search I recommend you put in each spelling option separately .dont use the similar spelling option as it throws up total wild comparisons !