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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Jomot on Monday 29 March 21 21:56 BST (UK)
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Mat(t)hew Forbes was born c1793 Duns, Berwickshire - probably the son of William Forbes & Elizabeth Walkenshaw, although his death certificate names his father as Matthew, mother n/k.
I believe he married 3 times, all in Glasgow: in 1819 to Janet Steel, 1839 to Mary Nish, and 1848 to Sarah McNeil. The marriage records all state he was a tailor in Glasgow, but don’t say if any party was single or widowed. I don’t know when any of the wives died, and I can’t find any children being baptised. The salient census entries are:
1841 - Davidsons Land 89 Gallowgate St, Glasgow
Neil Macphee 50 Journeyman Tailor
John Graham 55 Journeyman Tailor
Mathew Forbes 50 Journeyman Tailor
--- Forbes (female) aged 30
1851 - 119 Great Easter Road, Camlachie, Lanarkshire
Matthew Forbes 55 Tailor b Dunse, Berwickshire
Sarah Mcneil 56 wife b Kinter, Argyllshire
Fanny/Fannel [probably Jannet] Forbes 17 daur b Greenock, Renfrewshire
William Hamilton 8 Nephew b Glasgow
Mary Mcneil 66 Aunt b Ireland
1861 - 17 Coalhill St, Glasgow Barony
Sarah Forbes 67 b Ireland
Janet Forbes 26 daur b Greenock, Renfrewshire
Robert McKenzie 4 Grandson b Glasgow
William Graham 1 Grandson b Lanarkshire
Margaret Johnson 66 Lodger
Matthew died 30 April 1860 at 17 Coalhill Street, aged 67, and was buried on 2 May at the Eastern Necropolis. He is recorded as the step-father of Mrs Wm Boyd, Foundry Open. Burial records here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH8-P971-Y?cat=1323530
and https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ9-K6YP?cat=1323530
Mrs Wm Boyd was formerly Margaret McKenzie, born Ireland c1821, who married William Boyd in Glasgow in 1836. One of their children was Malcolm Mcneil Boyd b1857, but I can’t for the life of me work out how Matthew Forbes was Margaret's step-father.
I also have no clue whether Fanny/Fannel/Janet Forbes is Matthew's daughter or step-daughter, or what happened to her after 1861.
I thought perhaps the Sarah McKenzie mentioned in the burial/lair book as having died in 1866 might be Sarah McNeil/Forbes, but she is identified only as the mother of Neil McKenzie: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSRF-K88X?i=272&cat=1323530
Any help in connecting any of these relationships would be greatly appreciated – I’ve been going round in circles for days & failing miserably!
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Hi Jomot
Just picking apart things a little to try to help you here.
1851 - 119 Great Easter Road, Camlachie, Lanarkshire
Matthew Forbes 55 Tailor b Dunse, Berwickshire
Sarah Mcneil 56 wife b Kinter, Argyllshire
Fanny/Fannel [probably Jannet] Forbes 17 daur b Greenock, Renfrewshire
William Hamilton 8 Nephew b Glasgow
Mary Mcneil 66 Aunt b Ireland
Have you found Sarah McNeil in the 1841 census? Likely Janet would be her daughter as no child shows in the household where Matthew is recorded in 1841.
You could try to follow up Janet to a marriage/death to confirm her parents' names perhaps. Added: See you mention that has been a problem so far.
Mary McNeil in 1851. Aunt to Sarah? If so, she should have shown as wife's aunt on the household entry as the releationship should always show in connection to the head of the household.
1861 - 17 Coalhill St, Glasgow Barony
Sarah Forbes 67 b Ireland
Janet Forbes 26 daur b Greenock, Renfrewshire
Robert McKenzie 4 Grandson b Glasgow
William Graham 1 Grandson b Lanarkshire
Margaret Johnson 66 Lodger
Have you found Sarah McNeil's death reg? Was she married to a McKenzie previously?
The death in 1866 shows as Sarah McNeil/McKenzie, aged 73. Mother's maiden name of Colvin. Death in High Church/Glasgow.
Have you had a look at this death on SP? Might be a good idea to check what it shows. The issue with surnames, it could well be that Sarah McNeil and Matthew Forbes were never married. So, Sarah's death would not show him as husband and Forbes surname would not be included on her registration.
Lots of references to the surname McKenzie aren't there. You have:
Mrs W Boyd, a Margaret McKenzie. If Sarah McNeil was her mother, no reason for simplicity for Matthew not to show as step father to her (although there may not have been a marriage). Have you thought of checking Margaret's death registration to see what it may show?
In connection to the 1866 death for a Sarah and reference to her being mother to a Neil McKenzie. Again, this could all connect to a possible previous marriage for Sarah.
Would be good to find Sarah and perhaps some Mckenzie children in 1841 (Janet in particular would still be young and should be with mother).
Monica
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Hi Monica, and thanks for the reply.
I've spent a small fortune with SP already, but have just taken the plunge and bought the death cert for Sarah McKenzie. She was the widow of Neil McKenzie, Labourer, and died at 15 Society Street aged 73. Her parents were John & Janet McNeil nee Colvin, both deceased. Informant Neil McKenzie, son.
I've gone down so many rabbit holes with all these surnames, but not found anything concrete for Sarah Forbes [McNeil] in 1841. The differing birth places for her in 1851 (Kinter, Argyllshire) and 1861 (Ireland) don't exactly help either.
I did find a Janet McKenzie in 1841 & 1851 born c1835 & Greenock & still living there, with a father possibly John McKenzie. But if that's her in 1851 then she can't also be Fanny/Fannel Forbes.
I suppose I should really buy Margaret Boyd's death certificate, but she's not listed on the lair record so I'm not immediately sure which death is her. Back to the search!
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There is this entry for example from 1841 for the McKenzie family perhaps?
www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14e8e6f4040b9d6eefe1f0/sarah-mckenzie-1841-lanarkshire-glasgow-1801-?locale=en
No Fanny/Janet :-\ But, we have a son Neil and a Robert. Margaret McKenzie Boyd also called one of her sons Neil McKenzie Boyd.
From 1861, we had a Robert living with grandmother Sarah Forbes - Robert McKenzie 4 Grandson b Glasgow. I thought this might be his entry www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F79H-D26 There may be others.
We also had in 1861 - William Graham 1 Grandson b Lanarkshire - can't see anything that stands out for his birth in Glasgow. Could also be registered as McKenzie maybe.
All work in progress for you ;)
Monica
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There were two possible deaths for a Margaret Boyd/m*ck*nz* with a birth year around 1821 +/- 3 yrs. Both in Dennistoun
1896 - age 75
1902 - age 82
I would say that if Margaret is Sarah's daughter, with Margaret showing an Irish birth, there is a good possibility that Sarah was Irish born too? The McNeil aunt in the household in 1851 was also born in Ireland.
Monica
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I found a small a/try tree which has Neil McKenzie and Sarah McNeil's son remarrying in 1866. Clip below. The marriage was in Bridgeton on 17 August. Mother Sarah shows as deceased. What was the date of death for Sarah from the DC you just looked at? Noticed that Robert is showing as a master tailor like Matthew Forbes:
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I found a small a/try tree which has Neil McKenzie and Sarah McNeil's son remarrying in 1866. Clip below. The marriage was in Bridgeton on 17 August. Mother Sarah shows as deceased. What was the date of death for Sarah from the DC you just looked at?
It was 24 April 1866.
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I plumped for the 1896 death for Margaret Boyd, and its the right one as the informant was her son Malcolm M Boyd, but she had remarried.
Margaret Houston widow of William Boyd, Weaver and wife/widow of Samuel Houston, Lamplighter.
I'm not 100% but I think it says her parents are Neil McKenzie & Sarah McKenzie maiden surname McNeil. Both deceased.
I'll need to double-check, but I noted an 1871 census that looked like her at 105 King Street, Calton, and gave her PoB as Ireland, castteblaney (Castleblayney).
Off to do more searching.......
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Have you got Margaret McKenzie and William Boyd on censuses? From 1861:
Wm Boyd 47 cotton weaver b. Ireland
Margaret Boyd 40 b. Ireland
Neil Boyd 19
Wm Boyd 15
John Boyd 11
Malcolm Boyd 3
Elizabeth Boyd 2 grandchild
Address: 7 Foundry Open, Glasgow/High Church
Address works well with your earlier comment [Matthew Forbes - He is recorded as the step-father of Mrs Wm Boyd, Foundry Open].
William and Margaret had a daughter Margaret born in 1855 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ3K-M9W Being an 1855 cert, the first year of statutory registration in Scotland, the entries on the register ran over 2 pages. For births it should tell you where parents were from, marriage, how many children they had (alive/deceased, boys/girls). It could give you clues as to where in Ireland they came from.
Monica
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I feel I am encouraging you to spend money on SP ;D
Monica
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I have 12 credits left.... I must choose wisely ;D
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I think I've got enough to conclude that Margaret Boyd was Sarah McNeil's daughter, and therefore step-daughter to Matthew Forbes per the lair register. But what I was really trying to establish is whether Matthew had any children of his own. I was particularly intrigued by the daughter using the Forbes surname when Sarah was using the surname Neil..... and I've made a breakthrough.
The daughter was born Greenock c1834, and as Matthew's first wife was Janet Steel this family looked interesting: https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a15488df4040b9d6e5a55d6/jane-forbes-1841-renfrewshire-greenock-1834-?locale=en
I bought the 1868 death certificate for Henry (as Henry Steel Forbes), and it names his parents as Matthew Forbes, Tailor (deceased), and Janet Steel (deceased) ;D
So Fanny/Fannel/Janet Forbes may actually be Jane. I wonder if she headed back to Greenock?
Time to buy more credits I think!
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Hey, well done with that!
Also, re-reading, you have got a marriage in the OPRs for Matthew F and Sarah McNeil in 1848. Wonder why there is no mention of Matthew on her death cert in 1866. Maybe son Neil McKenzie didn't like him!
Did Margaret McKenzie Boyd show father Neil on her death cert?
Monica
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Did Margaret McKenzie Boyd show father Neil on her death cert?
The writing is a bit awful, but yes, I'm pretty sure it says Neil McKenzie.
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I don't think that Henry F and wife Ann Dow had any (living) children?
Ancestry have them indexed below for 1851 with an interesting spin on Forbes ::) Note the birth place for Henry (fits with his 1841 entry when he shows as born outside of Renfrewshire):
Henry Jubes 24 journeyman tailor b. Glasgow
Ann Jubes 24 b Paisley
Address: Jameson's Land Church Street, Lochwinnoch
1861 still without children:
Henry S Forbes 34 Tailor And Clothier Employing 6 Men & 2 Boys b. Paisley
Ann Forbes 35 b Paisley
Ann Dow 60 Mother-in-law
Ann B Forbes 8 Niece - wonder who parents are (brother to Henry or a sister)?
James Mcintyre 5 Nephew b. Alloa www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYBF-JXH
Address: 8 High St , Paisley
I can't see a will for him on SP which would have helped maybe if he had left bequests etc for his family members.
Monica
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I hadn't found that 1851, so thank you for that :)
I started looking for Ann B Forbes last night but without much luck, so I think I need to add everyone into my FH program and then try again more methodically.
I'm really quite excited by all of this, as the Forbes side of the family had been a bit of a mystery for years, and I only recently confirmed the connection between Matthew's father & my direct line.
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Sometimes step children or grandchildren especially if illegitimacy involved are referred to as neice nephew on Scottish census
I have an example.of 3 siblings who alternate surnames between birth mother's respective birth father's step father and even step grandfather's !
Very complicated
I hope you unravel your relations in less time
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You do get re-energised and enthused for sure ;)
I am going to add another research target for your growing list...
I came across a William Forbes on the 1851 census (born c 1827 in Glasgow). He is lodging in the Gilmour household in Helensburgh, Dumbartonshire. His occupation shows as a tailor.
Roll on 10 yrs to 1861, William has married a Gilmour girl, Janet. Their entry from 1861 below:
Catherine Gilmour 62 Head
Mary Gilmour 32 Daughter
Janet Forbes 30 Daughter
William Forbes 37 Son-in-law tailor b. Glasgow
Thomas Forbes 8 Grandson
Henry Forbes 7 Grandson
Matthew Forbes 2 Grandson
Jessie Gilmour 9 Granddaughter
Address: Clyde St Mcfarland Land, Helensborough
The occupation of William and a son called Matthew is what got me looking!
Monica
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Yes, I stumbled across William late last night and have literally just added him to my 'work in progress' tree to see what else it threw up.
Matthew's father was named William, as was his brother (currently still missing), so the combination of the c1827 William Forbes being born in Glasgow, being a tailor, and naming a son Matthew made him a very likely candidate.
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::) I think this is William's death index entry:
William FORBES
Age 37
Mother's maiden name STEEL
1861
ref 503/ 88
Row or Rhu
It adds to your view that Matthew Snr was the son of a William perhaps...
Monica
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Willam, Matthew's son, had a first marriage in Greenock to a Grace McKenzie (same surnames keep on popping up). They married on 10 Jul 1842 in West Or Old Parish,Greenock.
They must have gone to England for a while. Whilst there, they had a daughter, Janet Steel Forbes, in Liverpool (vol 20/pg 485). Janet died in Glasgow in December 1909 (indexed as Janet Steele Forbes). Half brother Thomas Gilmour Forbes registered her death.
4 yr old Janet shows back in Glasgow for 1851, staying with aunt and uncle, Isabella (McKenzie) and husband John McLauchlin.
Monica
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Blimey... they're coming at me from everywhere now!
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;D....can I add a few more pls ::)
JEAN HASTIE FORBES - MATTHEW FORBES/JANET STEEL
b. 8 OCTOBER 1832
chr. 28 OCTOBER 1832
GREENOCK ASSOCIATE....this must be Jane that we already have thinking about it...or Janet?
ELIZABETH WALKINGSHAW FORBES - MATTHEW FORBES/JANET STEEL
b. 16 JUNE 1834
chr. 6 JULY 1834
GREENOCK ASSOCIATE...and this is the one that really helps to firm up Mathew's origins I would say :)
Monica
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Do the children's names including middle names match up with the relevant grandparents as per traditional Scots naming system
For example is Janet steel Forbes the second girl in family so named after paternal grandmother
In same way as Margaret Mackenzie Boyd named after her paternal grandmother was it her second son who she named Neil makensie BOYD after her own father .
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;D....can I add a few more pls ::)
JEAN HASTIE FORBES - MATTHEW FORBES/JANET STEEL
b. 8 OCTOBER 1832
chr. 28 OCTOBER 1832
GREENOCK ASSOCIATE....this must be Jane that we already have thinking about it...or Janet?
ELIZABETH WALKINGSHAW FORBES - MATTHEW FORBES/JANET STEEL
b. 16 JUNE 1834
chr. 6 JULY 1834
GREENOCK ASSOCIATE...and this is the one that really helps to firm up Mathew's origins I would say :)
Monica
Brilliant - thank you! I thought I'd checked other churches, but I must have limited it to Glasgow - lesson learned ::)
I suspected there'd be an Elizabeth, and her middle name is extremely helpful indeed ;D
Once we go back to Duns the records are a little patchy, but Matthew's possible paternal grandparents were either:
a) Matthew Forbes & Wilhelmina Hately who married in Coldstream in 1764, baptised a daughter (Ann) in Edinburgh in 1765 & then vanish - OR -
b) Matthew Forbes & Janet Henderson who are noted in the 1774 Kirk records in Longformacus: "11 Dec 1774 To Mathew Forbes in the parish of Edrom & Janet Henderson in this parish matrimonially contracted - 1 shilling" CH2/250/3, image 303
Both Matthew's were tailors, or perhaps they were the same man - this is what I've been struggling to piece together. I have:
1793 Duns Matthew Forbes s/o William Forbes & Elizabeth Walkingshaw. The witness names were James Walkingshaw & John Ford, although it appears to have been written up some years later as the page is headed 1807 and the entries jump around from 1790's to early 1800's
1795 Duns James Forbes s/o William Forbes & Elizabeth Walkingshaw. The page is again headed 1807, same scattered dates, and the same witnesses.
1799 Duns - burial of Elizabeth Walkinshaw wife of William Forbes, tailor of Duns, aged 48
1800 Duns - marriage of William Forbes tailor of Duns & Janet Anderson of Highlaw. Witnesses were James Walkenshaw & John Anderson. Same marriage noted 2 weeks earlier in Edrom but with no witness details. Janet died January 1840 aged 74, so born c1766.
1801 Duns John Forbes s/o William Forbes & Janet Anderson. This is written immediately after the 1795 baptism of James, with the same witnesses.
Their other children were Janet 1805 & Wilhelmina ("William Mina") 1808.
1804 Duns - marriage of Thomas Wilson of Broomhouse & Jean Forbes d/o Matthew Forbes tailor of Duns. Wits William Forbes & Mary White. Jean died in 1838, aged 56, so born c1782.
1809 Coldingham/Coldstream - irregular marriage of John Ford of Coldingham and Isobel Forbes d/o Matthew Forbes tailor of Duns. Married at Coldstream, confirmed at Coldingham. No further trace after this.
My 4x Great Grandmother was Wilhelmina Forbes d/o Matthew Forbes, tailor , born in Duns around 1780. Although I can't find a baptism or a marriage for her, the baptisms of her children confirm she was native of Duns & that her father was Matthew Forbes, tailor. She died in 1832.
The 1841 census for Duns has:
William Forbes 66 tailor
John Forbes 41 tailor
Wilhelmina Forbes 13 - she was the illegitimate d/o Janet born 1805.
ADDED: William died in 1845, aged 70.
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"Forbes Tailoring on the Square", in Glasgow, still at it apparently! ;D
Skoosh.
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Jomot, you have set that generation out really clearly and I am able to follow it through what you have found. I think you have squeezed out everything that seems to be there on the family. I can't easily see anything further to what you have.
I can see why you think the two Matthew Forbes from Duns are likely the same man. When you look at the early censuses, there are actually very few Forbes showing with a connection to Berwickshire which make me often think it is potentially one main family group.
Not sure how you can prove it with certainty though :-\
You have been thorough so guessing that you have looked at burial registers and memorial incriptions in the past for the family? Available material to check here http://www.bordersfhs.org.uk/duns.asp
Monica
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The MI's from the Borders fhs will be the next purchase, once I've chased down & written up all of the Glasgow/Greenock connections.
I had hoped that finding William b1793 might also lead to James b1795 - and possibly some further clues - but he seems to be another one who vanishes.
Still, I've made more progress in the last couple of weeks than I ever thought I would, so I can't grumble :)
Many thanks for your help.
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Well hello everyone!! ;D
How pleased am I to have come across this forum after all this time and to find you guys talking about my line and with even reading through your entries filling in some blanks for me.
If I follow the trail William Forbes married to Elizabeth Walkingshaw would be my 5th Great-Grandfather...just WOW!!!
So here goes....My lineage...
William Forbes + Elizabeth Walkingshaw = 5th Great-Grandparents
Matthew Forbes (So William Forbes) + Janet Steel = 4th Great-Grandparents
William Forbes (So Matthew Forbes) + Janet Gray Gilmour = 3rd Great-Grandparents
Henry Steel Forbes (So William Forbes) + Helen Morton = 2nd Great-Grandparents
Henry Steel Forbes (So Henry Steel Forbes) + Daisy Leah Sedgwick = Great-Grandparents
Annie Louisa Forbes (Do Henry Steel Forbes) + William Thomas Thomas = Grandparents
Barbara Ann Thomas (Do Annie Louisa Forbes) + Douglas John Eldridge = Parents
And then there's me. ;D
Following the Forbes line down from Henry Steel Forbes (So William Forbes) they all passed away in Australia which is where I am from. The only exceptions are Helen Morton wife of Henry Steel Forbes who died in Helensburgh in Scotland and my mother who is still alive but lives in Australia.
I would be keen to share information if anyone were interested...cheers
PS...My first time on RootsChat so I hope I've done this right...lol
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Welcome to rootschat Trinkabell
The lineage is well set out .
I wonder if any descendants of William FORBES have done DNA tests
Which confirms links to 5x ggparents
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Hi Trinkabell
After this flurry of research last year I had to park the Forbes again for various reasons, so my tree still isn't as tidy as it should be, but I felt that William (husband to Elizabeth W) was probably brother to my 4xG Grandmother, Wilhelmina.
I did find James b 1795 though (son of William Forbes & Elizabeth W) - he's named on the same headstone as William's second wife, Janet/Jennet Anderson.
I also tried to get hold of a document about their son Matthew (your 4xG Grandfather) held at National Records of Scotland, but at the time they couldn't help due to covid, so that's still on my 'to do' list: https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rir/
The line comes through my father's side, and he's just done a DNA test for me. I sent it back a week ago but it's still not showing as received, so I hope it hasn't got lost!
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Jomot DNA tests are often slow
I have some distant Forbes Steel Anderson connections maybe your dad will match DNA with my aunt !
You've done excellent work .
Btw although ancestry has awful transcriptions occasionally it has a record which is hard to find on SP and before you spend lots of money looking paying for records might be worth looking there .I have worldwide subs if you want me to look for any you haven't found .
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Thanks for this. I've just checked and its finally showing as received, so now its just a case of sit & wait. Who knows, maybe we are (very) distantly related ;D
Thanks for the offer of looking for records, but I have subs to both Ancestry & FindMyPast so I've done lots of searches on both of those as well as on Scotlands People, so unless there's something tucked away in the kirk records that I haven't found, then I think I've pretty much got everything there is to be had.
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"Forbes Tailoring on the Square"
Skoosh.
Good name that is Skoosh! ;D
Annie