RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Chucky_60 on Thursday 01 April 21 06:13 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone
I'm trying to find some record of my 2 x great grandfather. My grandfather was William John Crocker (1903-1988) my great grandfather William John (1865-1932). George James Crocker (1843-) father died when he was 12 and his name was George. I have assumed that George junior may have gone by the name James as an adult. His wife is just as confusing, first name is Isabella, but I can't confirm a surname. It could be either Hogg or Short. Any help would be appreciated.
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Hi Chucky,
Can you just check the dates you have given for your grandfather, William John.
Sue
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Can you include locations please.
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Is this the death of your great grandfather -
VIC BDM death
232/1932 CROCKER William John parents Isabella HOGG / CROCKER James
age 67 @ Brunswick West
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Thanks and sorry dates fixed for grandfather, he was born in Brunswick and died in Killarney Vale NSW.
My research shows that George (1807-1856) arrived in VIC with his family in Feb 1855. If I have the right person George James went and worked in the gold fields near Maryborough in 1856 after his fathers death. This is where he meet and married Isabella Hogg in 1864. All of his children were born in the area. Thanks again
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George James CROCKER and Isabella SHORT had one child recorded.
George Crocker
AT Melbourne, Victoria
1868/ Reg 17740
Father George James Crocker
Mother Isabella Short
Their marriage notice 1866
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5782047
Isabella died in 1873
Isabella Crocker
Age:29
Father Short Hugh
Mother Hannah Rourke
1873 /10561
Death notice
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5874820
Sue
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Is this man your grandfather?
Ryerson Index
CROCKER William John (died) 27 Mar 1988 late of Killarney Vale, formerly of Dee Why Sydney Morning Herald 28 Mar 1988
107507/1988 BDM NSW death (26 Mar 1988)
CROKER William Thomas parents William Thomas / Annie
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The Argus 5 Aug 1932 p1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4466659?
CROCKER.—On the 4th August, at 48 Whitby Street, West Brunswick, William John, beloved
husband of Mabel, and fond father of Edward (Sydney), Belle (Mrs. SANDERS, Sale), Phyllis,
William (Sydney), Ethel (deceased), Gertrude, and Nell, aged 67 years.
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So this is possibly the marriage for CROCKER/HOGG.
James Crocker
Isabella (not given)
At Victoria
1864/417
There were a number of children in Maryborough area.
Isabella died-
Isabella Crocker
Birth Year: abt 1837
1873
Age 36
At Victoria
Father Hogg George
Mother Isabella
Reg 11328
Sue
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Is this your family?
VIC BDM birth
23604/1903 CROCKER Wm Jno parents Mabel Mary BROAD / Wm Jno
@ BRSWK
8519/1907 CROCKER Ethel Mabel parents Mabel Mary BROAD / Wm Jno
@ Brunswick
25068/1908 CROCKER Gerte Agusta parents Mabel Mary BROAD / Wm Jno
@ Brunswick
9296/1911 CROCKER Eleanor Grace parents Mabel Mary BROAD / Wm Jno
@ Brunswick
death
9101/1923 CROCKER Ethel Mabel parents Mabel Mary BROAD / CROCKER William John
age 16 died Brunswick
10790/1946 CROCKER Mabel Mary parents Marianne WISE / BROAD John
born Majorca died Brunswick West age 74
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my great grandfather William John (1865-1932).
So this death is the one you believe to be your great grandfather.
Wm Jno Crocker
abt 1865
Year 1932
At Brunswick,
Parents Jas, Isbla HOGG
Reg 232m
Sue
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Isabella (Short) Crocker
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/195113150/isabella-crocker
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Hi Sue
Yes I believe that WJC died on the 4 Aug 1932 at 48 Whitby Street, West Brunswick.
The challenge I'm having is determining who his parents were.
James Crocker & Isabella were married in Maryborough in 1864. Birth records of the 6 children states that their mother was Isabella Hogg. Yet the marriage record only shows Isabella no surname and the grooms name is James Crocker not George James Crocker.
The first born male was WJC (1865-1932).
To be honest at this stage I have excluded the marriage between James Crocker and Isabella Short in 1866.
I just have this gut feeling that George James decided to go by the name of James so he didn't have the same first name as his father.
Thanks
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I agree, your person did not marry Isabella SHORT.
You will need to download the marriage certificate for the CROCKER /(probably)HOGG marriage.
If correctly completed, it will give the bridegroom's parents.
Once you have that, you can proceed to the next generation.
Sue
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NSW BDM birth
102988/1988 CROCKER William John parents William John / Mabel Mary
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My research shows that George (1807-1856) arrived in VIC with his family in Feb 1855.
George Crocker death
Registration number 1905 / 1856
Family name:CROCKER
Given name(s) George
Mother's name, Sophia
Father's Name:, William
In the WILL of George Crocker who died in 1856, he is described as “gentleman”, formerly of Manchester, and a cotton commission agent of Clarendon Street, East Melbourne. His wife is named Elenaora.
You can download his will for free (after sign in) from here:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D111419
Death notice from the Melbourne Argus, 27/05/1856
On the 23rd inst., in his 49th year, Mr. George Crocker, formerly of Manchester, third son of the late William Crocker, Esq., of Bath, Somersetshire, England
George Crocker and family Emigration Nov 1854 - Feb 1855 onboard “Indian Queen”
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKW-2SNZ-B?cc=2778600
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George’s wife Eleanora died in 1859
Death Eleanora Crocker
Registration number 3691 / 1859
Family name: CROCKER , Eleanora
Mother's name, Elizabeth
Father's Name: Walter Liadlaw
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This is George and Eleanora Crocker in the 1851 England census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGPY-ZKB
and in the 1841 England census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQL4-6Y3
George and Eleanora marriage - 28 May 1839 St Ann’s, Manchester.
There is some useful information re Eleanor’s parents written on the marriage bond
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F1S7-G26
Their children, that I see so far:
Mary Anne 1840,
William 1841,
William 1842,
George James 1843,
Sophia 1845,
Nora 1847,
Fanny Oakes 1849,
William and Harry/ Henry Laidlaw 1851,
Eleanora 1854.
This is the baptism for the son George James (your direct ancestor)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMZT-VVM
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According to census data and info from death notice in the paper
here is George Crocker's baptism in 1808
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPT9-W5RV
George had older SIBLINGS born in Portsea:
William Urry Crocker 1802,
John Henry Crocker 1804,
Frederick Crocker 1808.
It is possible that the family moved and other children were born elsewhere
Marriage of William Crocker and Sophia Urry - 11 Feb 1802
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N24R-M2N
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The WILL for William Crocker, esquire, linen draper of Bath is here:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D92109
Possible burial for William Crocker in 1845 Bath (age 72 ; ie born abt 1773)
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5818d405e93790ec75ad3987/william-crocker-burial-somerset-bath-1845-03-31?locale=en
Burial for Sophie (Urry) Crocker, St. Michaels, Bath, Somerset, 4 Feb 1820, age 47 yrs
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The wife of George Crocker was
Eleanor LAIDLAW
christening 19 Nov 1820 Hevershem, Westmoreland
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NR83-D2R
Walter Laidlaw’s occupation was an Innkeeper / Victualler (on parish records of children’s baptisms)
Laidlaw children:
Elizabeth Laidlaw – 1815 Hevershem
Mary Laidlaw – 1816 Hevershem
Janet Laidlaw – 1818 Hevershem
Eleanor - 1820 Hevershem
Robert Charles Laidlaw -1826 Manchester
Catharine Laidlaw – 1824 Manchester
Walter Laidlaw burial 8 April 1832, age 41 or 49? (looks like 49 in parish register, and bishops transcript has written 41)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F3ZJ-M68
Elizabeth Laidlaw (widow) in 1841 census – looking at the original document she is a hotel keeper at Spring Gardens
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQLZ-H7B
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Yet the marriage record only shows Isabella no surname and the grooms name is James Crocker not George James Crocker.
It is not a marriage record, it is an index. It is quite possible that the bride's surname was simply illegible to the indexers. As Sue has said, you need to see the actual marriage record before you can continue.
I cannot see where you are getting the name 'George James' from?
Debra :)
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George James Crocker (1843-) father died when he was 12 and his name was George.
Post 1 and post 4
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The father of William John born 1865 was James and when he married he was James. I don't know where the 'George' comes from.
Debra :)
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Is this man your grandfather?
Ryerson Index
CROCKER William John (died) 27 Mar 1988 late of Killarney Vale, formerly of Dee Why Sydney Morning Herald 28 Mar 1988
107507/1988 BDM NSW death (26 Mar 1988)
CROKER William Thomas parents William Thomas / Annie
That man was born in Queensland, this is the correct death.
CROCKER, WILLIAM JOHN
102988/1988
WILLIAM JOHN
MABEL MARY
Debra :)
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Is this man your grandfather?
Ryerson Index
CROCKER William John (died) 27 Mar 1988 late of Killarney Vale, formerly of Dee Why Sydney Morning Herald 28 Mar 1988
107507/1988 BDM NSW death (26 Mar 1988)
CROKER William Thomas parents William Thomas / Annie
Death NSW in March
CROCKER William John
102988/1988
William John
Mabel Mary
He was married to Dorothy -
William J Crocker
Dorothy M MacGLINN
At North Sydney, New South Wales
1930/1464
Sue
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Sorry Debra. Slight double up there.
Sue
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This man might be worth keeping in mind when you have the parent names from the marriage cert.
Death
1894
CROCKER, Jas
Mother: Sarah RICHARDS
Father: Wm
Registered: S Y (South Yarra?)
Aged 60
14995/1894
He was a good sort of age to marry Isabella HOGG if she was born in 1837. This man had a sister Eliza in Victoria who died in 1903 and they were from Cornwall.
Death
1903
SEDMAN, Eliza
Mother: Sarah RICHARDS
Father: Wm CROCKER
Registered: S Y
Aged 66
7570/1903
I was wondering what happened to the surviving children when Isabella died as they were very young and I can't see any mention in the State ward records. George died in 1877 aged 9 so that death cert could have clues as to where and who he was living with at the time.
Debra :)
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Eliza SEDMAN/CROCKER had twins in 1870, her parents had twins in 1840 and I notice that James CROCKER and Isabella had two sets of twins. It will be interesting to see if they are related.
Debra :)
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Here is a death notice for the man who died in South Yarra in 1894
It's a bit odd as the given name is not stated!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190018688
"CROCKER at the residence of his son, 94 River Street South Yarra, father of William J. James T., T. Joseph And Isabella Crocker aged 60 years."
Sue
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Awesome, so it is him!
Debra :)
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Amazing little digger you are ;D ;)
Sue
PS How much did you find on the Cornwall background?
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Digging around the edges usually works for me ;D
PS How much did you find on the Cornwall background?
Nothing really. There is a tree on Ancestry which looks sound but they don't know anything about James. When Eliza arrived in 1858 she said she had no relatives in the colony and I can't see any definitive arrival for James.
Debra :)
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It looks as if the son (of Jas CROCKER), William John CROCKER, of 74 River street South Yarra was possibly married to Eliza Aston
Wm Jno CROCKER
Eliza ASTON
At Victoria
1889 /7537
And she died in 1900 known a Lizzie
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9550362
Sue
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So William John's marriage to Mabel BROAD was after his first wife's death.
Mabel Mary BROAD
Wm Jno CROCKER
At Victoria
1901/6851
With his first wife, William John had several children including Isabella May- 1892 and James Edward-1891.
All living in Brunswick at 68 Whitby Street in 1914. On the electoral Roll
CROCKER, William John, a shipping clerk
Isabella May, a hand turner
James Edward, a clerk
Mabel Mary, home duties
Sue
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I hope someone will correct me if I have this wrong-
After much search and contribution we have this possible picture.
Your grandfather was William John Crocker
He was born in Brunswick, married to Dorothy in NSW and died in NSW in 1988.
His parents were William John Crocker and Mabel (nee Broad)
His father, your great grandfather was William John Crocker .
He was born in Maryborough . He married first Eliza Aston and second Mabel Broad. He died in 1932
His parents appear to be James Crocker and Isabella (nee Hogg)
Your great great grandfather, James Crocker was born in Cornwall.
He married Isabella Hogg in Victoria and died in 1894.
His parents were William Crocker and Sarah (possibly known as Sally) (nee Richards)
Sue
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Hi everyone
Thank you so much to all of you for all the "digging" it was a real surprise when I logged on tonight.
Sue your last post has the correct info for my grandfather and great grandfather.
Maybe I do have the wrong person in George "James" Crocker and will start to "dig" deeper for the James Crocker from Cornwell. Let's see where that takes me.
Thank you again
Chucky
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Hi everyone
I'm trying to find some record of my 2 x great grandfather. My grandfather was William John Crocker (1903-1988) my great grandfather William John (1865-1932). George James Crocker (1843-) father died when he was 12 and his name was George. I have assumed that George junior may have gone by the name James as an adult. His wife is just as confusing, first name is Isabella, but I can't confirm a surname. It could be either Hogg or Short. Any help would be appreciated.
I suspect this underlined part of your post is where your information has gone astray and left the accurate path.
As the man is your direct line and therefore the foundation stone of your family history which, of course,you would wish to be accurate, you would need to purchase the certificate of his marriage to Isabella HOGG.
It will confirm his parents as stated by himself at the time. Also the family details of his wife Isabella HOGG.
There is a cost of $20. Scroll down this page for how to order and immediately download after payment.
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history
The death certificate would also offer valuable family information, possibly including how long in the colonies if an immigrant as we suspect, place of birth etc.
Without this kind of verification, everything is 'maybe' ;)
Many here will be interested to hear of what you discover.!
Sue
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I whole-heartedly agree with Sue’s post above.
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May I also support Sue's post. Victoria's bdm records are perhaps among the most informative around the entire world. .... Better even than Scotland's... shhhhh .... yep better than Scotland's.... and that's a comment from my own ancient living rellies, including retired New South Wales bdm senior officers.
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Hi Sue & everyone
As a result of all your help I have solved the riddle of James Crocker, just a few points to sort out.
2 x great grand parents
James Crocker - B 1834 Gwennap, Cornwall, England - D 1894, St Kilda, Victoria
Isabella Hogg - B 1844 (location unknown) - D 1873, St Kilda, Victoria
Both of James parents died before he was 17, both he and his elder brother William worked in the mines in Cornwall. I have found a record of his younger sister Eliza coming to Australia as a single female in 1858 but I haven't been able to find a manifest for James yet. It would have most likely between during the 1850's as he married Elizabeth Hogg in 1864.
They were married in Maryborough, Victoria on the 18 March and their children were either born in Maryborough or Chinaman's Flat. They would have been there at the height of the gold rush. Two of the children are buried in the Timor Cemetery.
3 x great grandparents
William Crocker - B 1811 Gwennap, Cornwall, England - D 1846 Gwennap, Cornwall, England
Sarah Richards - 1810 Gwennap, Cornwall, England - D 1849 Gwennap, Cornwall, England
Married 2 Jun 1831 Gwennap, Cornwall, England
It appears as if Sarah's mother Sarah Prisk may have been living with or next door to her grandchildren following her daughters and son-in-law deaths. Shown on the 1851 census.
I have had no luck on the Isabella Hogg side other than her fathers name is George. Oh I did get a copy of the Birth Certificate which was helpful but as is the case so many times the hand writing was dreadful so I could not find out where Isabella was born.
I believe I read a post from someone that mentioned twins and it does appear as if James had twin sisters than unfortunately died aged 2 years.
Thank you again for everyone's help, back to work on the Hogg side and then onto my grandmother Dorothy May McGlinn another one I can find no record prior to marrying my grandfather.
Happy digging!
Chucky
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Chucky, thanks for the up-date. good to see progress.
On Isabella Hoggs death certificate, what information do you see about her place of birth, and time spent in the colony?
If you post the bits from the certificate that you cannot read, we will try to help.
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Just reposting Sue's advice for reference.
As the man is your direct line and therefore the foundation stone of your family history which, of course,you would wish to be accurate, you would need to purchase the certificate of his marriage to Isabella HOGG.
It will confirm his parents as stated by himself at the time. Also the family details of his wife Isabella HOGG.
Debra :)
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Chucky
If you haven't already been out to Timor it makes an interesting trip. The remnants of the Grand Duke mine arch are impressive and the cemetery is typical goldfields. Perhaps the local historical society could assist in locating those graves for you. My Cornish family were also Timor/Bowenvale residents during the rush and were married in the Wesleyan Chapel Tent at Alma in 1854!
bitzar.
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Thanks Bitzar
I was actually in the general area about 18 months ago, not realising of course the significance of the place. I think I could spend the rest of my life travelling and not scratch the surface of those places I would love to visit. At least I would not have to fly to go to Timor.
Cheers
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Hi Neale1961
I have attached a copy of the marriage certificate re Isabella's place of birth.
Cheers
Chucky
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Morpeth, Northumberland
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The witnesses seem to be John Telford and Jane Newman.
The consent of Isabella"s guardian was required and I am not sure if there is a signature for that person ?
Sue
PS
I'm taking a stab at Eleanor as Isabella's mother's given name. Maiden name not known.
ADDING
Under rank or profession for Isabella, it says "with guardians" I think ??
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It is possible that Jane Newman of Bowenvale , Maryborough, married in 1866.
She was the daughter of Thomas Newman.
This is a Golden Wedding Anniversary snip.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/90592397
Sue
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Yes place of birth is Morpeth Northumberland
Isabella was only 17 when married - under age (so born abt 1847)
Father George Hogg, a gardener
Mother Eleanor (maiden name unknown)
I am going to look at this as a possible birth for her
Name: HOGG, ISABELLA
Mother's Maiden Surname: DOBSON
GRO Reference: 1847 M Quarter in THE MORPETH UNION Volume 25 Page 340
1851 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG67-DZ3
(looks as if she might have lost her parents early)
ADDED: note the name John Telford on the census and on the marriage ( as witness).
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Maybe George Hogg in 1841 (with parents)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7WC-JDJ
and George Hogg in 1851 (with parents)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGXQ-7XQ
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I think Isabella arrived with her guardians, George and John Telford in 1862
George TELFORD
Ship Blanche MOORE
Geo Telford
Nationality English
Arrival Age 21
Birth Date abt 1841
Departure Place Liverpool
Arrival Date 30 Aug 1862
Arrival Place Melbourne, Australia
Also
Elizabeth Telford 27
John Telford 25
Isabella TELFORD 14
Sue
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That transcript for the above 1851 census is missing the top part of the family on the previous page
Here it is 1851 census
Thomas Telford 45, born Northumberland
Hannah Telford 50, born Durham (maiden name Hogg - Died 1852)
Isabell Telford, 22 daughter
John Telford, 16 son
George Telford, 11 son
Isabell Hogg, 4 niece
It appears that quite a few of the Telford family came to Victoria, Australia.
Must stop now to get the dinner ready!
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Just confirming on Neale's findings
The death of John Telford in Maryborough
Jno TELFORD
Age57
At Maryborough, Victoria
Father Thos
Mother HOGG Hannah
1893 /6669
and brother
Geo TELFORD
Age 66
At Hawthorn, Victoria
Father Telford Thos
Mother Hannah HOGG
1909 /1735
Sue
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Thank you so much everyone, now I have something to keep me up half the night. Cheers
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3 x great grandparents
William Crocker - B 1811 Gwennap, Cornwall, England - D 1846 Gwennap, Cornwall, England
Sarah Richards - 1810 Gwennap, Cornwall, England - D 1849 Gwennap, Cornwall, England
Married 2 Jun 1831 Gwennap, Cornwall, England
Chucky
Hi Chucky, A wet day here, so I did some more digging into the Cornish Crocker family for you. William and Sally (Sarah) had 10 children but lost many as infants. I am attaching here some family data. Hope my layout makes sense. :)
Also I am not sure you have the correct dates of birth for William or Sally - maybe take care when looking at trees on Ancestry where there are no supporting documents.
Further to this, I can see it is possible to follow quite a few of your Cornish family lines back many generations through the parish records - due to some rather unusual names, etc. If you want me to send you my notes, give me a PM with your email.
Cheers
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I've been looking at the guardians of your great great grandmother Isabella HOGG who assumed the surname TELFORD for a time and is seen under that name in 1861 census.
On that census she is nominated as a sister to the TELFORD brothers, and their sister Elizabeth
She entered Australia using TELFORD.
Elizabeth, the sister of John and George was actually married before she embarked on the voyage to Australia.
Marriages Jun 1862
TARBIT John
TELFORD Elizabeth
Belford
10b 475
This man is ticketed on the same number as the TELFORDS on their 1862 arrival voyage
John TARBITT. Ag Lab. b, 1833. He appears with them on the manifest.
Why did Elizabeth travel under her maiden name? Maybe for appearances, to look like the mother of Isabella?
The first TARBIT / TELFORD child was born in Maryborough in 1863 and others followed.
John TARBIT died in St Arnaud in 1902 /7402 aged 69
Eliz. Jane TARBIT died in St Arnaud in 1923/12635 aged 90 .
Her parents were Thos TELFORD and Hannah HOGG.
Sue
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Again Neale and Sue thank you so much you would make great PI's. Maybe there is Netflix series just waiting to be made, just need to think of a catchy name. WOW, so much for me to try and absorb I should get to it. Oh FYI Neale it rained here all day too.
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Hi Diggers
Can you please tell where I should look for a birth certificate for my very annoying Isabella Hogg. Born in 1847 in Morpeth, Northumberland. Fathers name George. I just can't seem to get an accurate fix on her mother.
Thanks
Chucky
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The early records for Isabella are indeed difficult to ascertain.
The birth name of the mother of her guardian family (that is George, John and Elizabeth TELFORD) was Hannah HOGG.
Isabella HOGG may have been
Hannah's brother's child (named George one assumes)
A relative of another line (eg niece) who shared the name HOGG.
I would suggest at marriage Isabella did not quite know who her mother was.
At her marriage she states Eleanor even though her guardians were present. And at death is recorded as Isabella.
Obviously the family cared a great deal for her and carried through their guardianship faithfully.
Sue
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I am going to look at this as a possible birth for her
Name: HOGG, ISABELLA
Mother's Maiden Surname: DOBSON
GRO Reference: 1847 M Quarter in THE MORPETH UNION Volume 25 Page 340
This girl had older siblings - Isabella (1838), died 1838, Elizabeth (1839), Isabel (1841) died 1841, Mary (1842), Margaret (1844) died 1847. Deaths are only possibles, I don't know for certain, and these are only within civil registration, there may be more children earlier.
Possibly the mother's death:
HOGG, ANN
Aged 34
GRO Reference: 1847 M Quarter in THE MORPETH UNION Volume 25 Page 303
This is the same quarter as Isabella's birth so the death may have been childbirth related.
I can see baptisms in Morpeth for Mary and Margaret, parents named as George and Ann.
1851 census
George HOGG, aged 43, Gardener born Carham, Northumberland.
Elizabeth HOGG, dau, aged 11, born Morpeth
Mary HOGG, dau, aged 8 born Morpeth
Class: HO107; Piece: 2418; Folio: 269; Page: 2
George is, I think, supposed to be a widower but it looks more like a U for unmarried.
Thomas and Elizabeth DOBSON are living next door, aged 66 and 67 so possibly the in-laws.
George and the two girls are still together in Morpeth in 1861/1871/1881/1891.
Debra :)
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It looks like George and Ann were married in Newcastle just one month before civil registration began.
George HOGG
Marriage Date: 03 Jun 1837
Marriage Place: Saint John's Parish, Newcastle Upon Tyne, England
Spouse: Ann DOBSON
FHL Film Number: 847920
Reference ID: p62
Debra :)
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1841 census, Hillgate, Morpeth, Northumberland
George Hogg 35 gardener, born in county
Ann Hogg 28, born in county
Elizabeth Hogg 2, born in county
This transcript for the Hogg-Dobson marriage in 1837 gives witness names – of interest a Margaret Dobson (mother? Or sister?)
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/58182928e93790eb7f486660/ann-dobson-george-hogg-marriage-northumberland-newcastle-upon-tyne-1837-06-03?locale=en
Ann (Dobson) Hogg - Death in 1847 at age 34 gives birth at about 1812 - 1813
and age at 1841 Census suggests similar birth year.
There are a few baptisms of interest -
* This Ann Dobson has parents Thomas and Elizabeth (perhaps the couple living next door to Hogg family in 1851):
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5f93485af493fdb860abe589/ann-dobson-baptism-northumberland-widdrington-1812-11-30?locale=en
Also these parents have a daughter named Margaret baptised 1815
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5f93485ef493fdb860abe5e0/margaret-dobson-baptism-northumberland-widdrington-1815-02-10?locale=en
* This one is for Ann Dobson born in Morpeth:
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5818ca9ee93790ec8b2c7a6b/ann-dobson-baptism-northumberland-morpeth-1813-06-01?locale=en
* This Ann Dobson has a mother named Margaret, but bapt year is a little later than ideal:
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5fb776b7f493fd9e92565257/ann-dobson-baptism-northumberland-hexham-1817-09-24?locale=en
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Regarding George HOGG.
He was buried 10 Nov 1891 Morpeth, age 87.
His place of birth is different on the various census records, but his age remains constant and would suggest birth around 1804-1805.
I believe George’s baptism may have been in Alnwick in Nov 1804 (born 16 Nov 1804) to parents Isabella and James Hogg (a labourer). I suspect the mother’s name on the baptism record has been written as “Ann” in error – I believe it should be Isabella. The name “Isabella” of course was used for George’s third daughter.
James Hogg and Isabella marriage was in Alnwick in 1795.
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5de2b06ff493fd85a0aff3e7/isabella-richardson-james-hogg-marriage-northumberland-alnwick-1795-08-11?locale=en
The 4 children of James and Isabella HOGG were baptised in Alnwick: James in 1798, Ann in 1801, William in 1802, and George in 1804
Death for George’s mother - Isabella Hogg in 1810
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5e69168cf493fd38df376887/isabella-hogg-burial-northumberland-earsdon-1810-06-10?locale=en
Likely death for George’s father – James Hogg in 1826
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/581871a2e93790ec752d7f56/james-hogg-burial-northumberland-earsdon-1826-08-05?locale=en
Isabella was a widow (Richardson) on her marriage to James Hogg. It looks like she had other children. There are 2 children born in Alnwick to Robert and Isabella Richardson: Isabella Margarita in 1789, Collingwood Augustus Hamilton in 1791.
Robert Richardson was an attorney at law – he died 12 Sept 1792 in Alnwick.
Robert and Isabella married 1787 in Alnwick (her maiden name was Purvis, her father was James), (Robert was a widower):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6SJS-N81?i=572&cc=1675690
OR
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5de2b035f493fd85a0afeacf/isabella-purvis-robert-richardson-marriage-northumberland-alnwick-1787-10-09?locale=en
Chucky - All these records in Northumberland can be found on https://www.freereg.org.uk/freereg_contents/new?locale=en
I hope I have this info all correct – someone will come and correct if not.
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Thank you so much Neale1961
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A bit more about Isabella HOGG – She was baptised 7 Feb 1847, Morpeth
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5818cac2e93790ec8b2cbd27/isabella-hogg-baptism-northumberland-morpeth-1847-02-07?locale=en
& 10 days later, her mother Anne (Dobson) Hogg was buried. (Anne’s age on the burial record is not correct, and does not match the death registration)
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/581873dce93790ec75301c30/anne-hogg-burial-northumberland-morpeth-1847-02-17?locale=en
I think it is most likely that Ann’s parents were Thomas and Elizabeth DOBSON who lived next door to the family in 1851.
I find it interesting and unusual at this time in history that George never re-married. Although he would not have been able to care for a new-born baby Isabella, he still managed to raise 2 other children – he must have had help from his in-laws. Other relations stepped in to help to raise baby Isabella.
Marriage for Thomas DOBSON and Elizabeth CHILTON in Ulgham 6 Nov 1811.
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/581829f8e93790eb7f499ab1/elisabeth-chilton-thomas-dobson-marriage-northumberland-ulgham-1811-11-06?locale=en
Elizabeth (Chilton) DOBSON, age 71 – burial 22 Aug 1854, Morpeth
According to 1851 census, Elizabeth born about 1784 in Fenham (Newcastle upon Tyne)
Likely baptism for Elizabeth CHILTON 21 Sept 1783, Newcastle upon Tyne to parents Thomas CHILTON (occup - pitman) and Ann
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5818ce52e93790ec8b33655d/elizabeth-chilton-baptism-northumberland-newcastle-upon-tyne-1783-09-21?locale=en
Thomas DOBSON, age 70 - burial 3 Sep 1854, Morpeth
According to 1851 census, Thomas born about 1785 in Widdrington
Likely baptism for Thomas DOBSON 24 Sept 1786 Widdrington to parents Jonathon DOBSON and Mary
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5f934824f493fdb860abe1c9/thomas-dobson-baptism-northumberland-widdrington-1786-09-24?locale=en
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I must say what great work from especially Neale and Debra in moving this search forward for Chucky. ;D
A question from me.
Neale in Reply # 63 lists the children of George James and Isabella HOGG and includes Ann b. 1801.
The 4 children of James and Isabella HOGG were baptised in Alnwick: James in 1798, Ann in 1801, William in 1802, and George in 1804
I see on census 1841 Hannah TELFORD with husband and family, it suggests Hannah TELFORD (nee HOGG) was born in Carham. A birth year given of 1801.
In reply #60 from Debra, gives us the 1851 census including George HOGG , born Carham.
George HOGG, aged 43, Gardener born Carham, Northumberland.
Elizabeth HOGG, dau, aged 11, born Morpeth
Mary HOGG, dau, aged 8 born Morpeth
Debra :)
Given the general flexibility in ages given on the 1841 census (often a few years out), do we think Ann and Hannah are the same person ? Hannah, Anna , Ann all being derivatives.
So Ann/Hannah is George HOGG’s sister?
Sue
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I agree Sue,
Debra / Dundee really “cracked the nut” with her reply #60 and allowed things to progress.
Given the general flexibility in ages given on the 1841 census (often a few years out), do we think Ann and Hannah are the same person ? Hannah, Anna , Ann all being derivatives.
So Ann/Hannah is George HOGG’s sister?
I think your suggestion about Hannah being Ann, George’s sister is a very good thought, especially since the Telford’s first daughter was named Isabella (named after her grandmother?)
I have tried to move forward on the connection between Hannah (Hogg) Telford and George Hogg, but without success. Every time I think of a new avenue to pursue, it leads me to a dead end. I cannot even find a marriage record for Hannah (or Ann) Hogg to Thomas Telford. Perhaps they did not marry. I cannot find any baptisms for the children listed in the census either. I even went on a trip to Scotland :) in case things happened over the border - nothing.
I am running out of ideas.
Information from the census is conflicting regarding birth date and place for Hannah:
1841 census in Carham, Northumberland
• Thomas Telford 35 , ag lab, born in county
• Hannah Telford 35 born in county (maiden name Hogg)
• Isabella 10 born in county
• Elizabeth 5 born in county
• John 5 born in county
• George 1 born in county
1851 census in Carham, Northumberland
• Thomas Telford 45, born Northumberland
• Hannah Telford 50, born Cornhill?, Durham (maiden name Hogg - Died 1852, registered death age 54)
I believe the transcipt is incorrect and it possibly reads Carham
• Isabell , 22 daughter, born Carham 1829
• Elizabeth, 18 daughter, born ? 1833 (cannot read place name)
• John, 16 son, born ? 1835 (cannot read place name)
• George, 11 son, born Carham 1840
• Isabell Hogg, 4 niece, born Morpeth 1847
I found a Hannah Hogg born 1802 in Durham to William Hogg and wife Hannah. Maybe this William is a brother to James Hogg (George’s father)?? ???
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Curious things – in looking for Baptisms for Telford children I have come across these 2 for the youngest George.
There is this birth registration:
TELFORD, GEORGE Mother: FLETCHER
GRO Reference: 1839 D Quarter in THE MORPETH UNION Volume 25 Page 270
There is this baptism:
George HOGG bapt. Longbenton 16 Feb 1840 to mother Hannah Hogg (a Spinster)
I wonder if the children listed with surname Telford on the census were in fact illegitimate children of either Thomas or Hannah, or children from previous marriages, or fostered kids picked up here and there. Puzzling. I am beginning to suspect Thomas and Hannah were not married.
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Please see the attached, thank you Chucky.
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1851 census in Carham, Northumberland
• Thomas Telford 45, born Northumberland
• Hannah Telford 50, born Cornhill?, Durham (maiden name Hogg - Died 1852, registered death age 54)
I believe the transcipt is incorrect and it possibly reads Carham
• Isabell , 22 daughter, born Carham 1829
• Elizabeth, 18 daughter, born ? 1833 (cannot read place name)
• John, 16 son, born ? 1835 (cannot read place name)
• George, 11 son, born Carham 1840
• Isabell Hogg, 4 niece, born Morpeth 1847
I found a Hannah Hogg born 1802 in Durham to William Hogg and wife Hannah. Maybe this William is a brother to James Hogg (George’s father)?? ???
I think it might be COWSHILL Edit CORNHILL as originally stated for Hannah's birthplace. ( IMO ;D)
It is not far from BRANXTON which I think might be the hard- to- read birthplace of her daughter Elizabeth and son John on the same census.
In county would apply as it seems Cowshill EDITCornhill was brought into the county of Northumberland from Durham earlier in the century.
Chucky, fun picture!! ;D
Sue
edit with apologies
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Thanks for those place names Sue. Looking again, I think your interpretation of the "scrawl" is correct.
Maybe that Hannah Hogg born 1802 in Durham to William Hogg is the one to look at further.
Thanks for the "awesome" vote Chucky - not feeling very awesome going around in circles at the moment. :) Thank goodness Sue keeps me on track!
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There is this birth registration:
TELFORD, GEORGE Mother: FLETCHER
GRO Reference: 1839 D Quarter in THE MORPETH UNION Volume 25 Page 270
No baptism found for this child. However there was a marriage between a Thomas Telford and an Isabella Fletcher in 1829 Durham. Looking for a death for Isabella Telford – nothing yet. I wonder if this is the Thomas Telford family we see in the Carham census?
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This girl had older siblings - Isabella (1838), died 1838, Elizabeth (1839), Isabel (1841) died 1841, Mary (1842), Margaret (1844) died 1847. Deaths are only possibles, I don't know for certain, and these are only within civil registration, there may be more children earlier.
Debra :)
Sorry, I meant to add this yesterday:
Children of George and Ann HOGG
• Isabella Hogg burial (2 weeks old) - 16 May 1838, St Mary the Virgin, Morpeth
• Elizabeth Hogg (no bapt found) Birth Registration GRO reference 1839 J Quarter in THE MORPETH UNION Volume 25 Page 314
Elizabeth Died 1898 Morpeth (58 yrs)
• Isabella Hogg burial (5 days old) - 7 May 1841, St Mary the Virgin, Morpeth
• Mary Hogg baptised 24 Jul 1842, St Mary the Virgin, Morpeth. Abode: Morpeth Rectory; father’s occupation: Hind.
Mary Died 1914 Morpeth (71 yrs)
• Margaret Hogg baptised 26 Oct 1844, St Mary the Virgin, Morpeth. Abode: High Church; father’s occupation: Gardener
Margaret Burial (2 yr 6 mth) 21 Feb 1847, St Mary the Virgin, Morpeth. Abode: High Church
• Isabella Hogg baptised 7 Feb 1847, St Mary the Virgin, Morpeth. Abode: High Church; father’s occupation: Gardener
Isabella died 1873 Victoria, Aust.
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Looking for a death for Isabella Telford – nothing yet. I wonder if this is the Thomas Telford family we see in the Carham census?
Although it seems Thomas had 'moved on'
In 1861 Thomas TELFORD aged 51 , a steward/shepherd born Kyloe Northumberland (same as shown in 1851) is with a woman nominated as wife aged 36. Her name is Jane
With them is Thomas' stepson, Henry MATHER aged 11, at school and Robert TELFORD a son, aged 2 years.
He is at Carham in what seems to be the same hamlet as his record in 1851.
I have not seen a marriage for this couple.
Sue
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Afternoon peoples,
Firstly thank you again I think I pretty much have the now "James" Crocker & Isabella Hogg issue sorted out. Just a couple of dates to find but all in all fantastic!
I'm not sure I know how RootsChat really works, but shouldn't you be helping someone else? :) It seems like I'm "hogging" all of your time.
Even so and yes I am reluctant to ask, but I would love some help with a few other names when time permits.
Cheers
Chucky
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Hi Sue
I can't keep up with you :)
Yes he did remarry in 1858 to a lady called Jane, still working on the last name. It seems as if this and for what ever other reasons that Isabella Hogg was raised by the Telfords has resulted in Isabella severing ties with her father and sisters and moving to Australia.
Chucky
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Presumably MATHER.Here is the birth of the son Robert and stepson Henry.
TELFORD, ROBERT mother's maiden surname MATHER
GRO 1858 S Quarter in GLENDALE
Volume 10B Page 301
MATHER, HENRY - null
GRO 1849 J Quarter in GLENDALE UNION
Volume 25 Page 304
Sue
PS I like your "HOGGING" joke
And, No, helping who and when is an individual's choice in the forum.
Just depends what grabs your interest I suppose ;D
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I am about to put a spanner in the works. :'(
I have had a look again at Ann Hogg – who I “thought” was George’s sister. Working through it all, I see that it is not possible.
Ann HOGG born 8 June 1801 in Alnwick, daughter of James and Isabella Hogg, died 10 weeks old, on 20 Aug 1801. Parents are both named. James’ occupation is a grocer.
James HOGG born 13 Sept 1798, son of James and Isabella Hogg, died 2 June 1802 Alnwick. Parents are both named. James’ occupation is a grocer - deceased.
The father James Hogg, a grocer, died 25 May 1802 Alnwick, age 50
So George Hogg born 16 Nov 1804 to James and Ann cannot be from the same father.
George was baptised in a Presbyterian church – they may have come from Scotland.
Back to the drawing board, Chucky!
PS. Some of us on Rootschat like a challenge! ;)
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Challenge you said, hows this one?
Dorothy M. McGlinn - B 1908 Sydney D 2000 Sydney. I have a birth index and a death notice, so all good there. But, other than the first name of her mother "Ellen" that's it nothing on parents or before I can't find a shred of evidence. But then I'm no expert.
And yes she was married to a Crocker, William John 1903 - 1988, born in Brunswick, VIC. They lived a large portion of their lives in Killarney Vale on the central coast of NSW.
So if the Hogg challenge becomes to much of a pig sty and you need something fresh go for it.
Chucky
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Hi Neale1961
In response to your bad news about Ann Hogg, I have kicked her out of the family. This is how I have that part of the circus setup and mind you its not even interval yet.
Parents
James Hogg B1770 - D1881 & Isabella (maybe called Ann) Atkinson B ???? - D Abt 1810. I have a marriage record but that's about it at this stage.
So the kids popped out this way
James 1798 - 1881
Hannah 1801 - 1852
William 1802 -
George 1804 - 1891
The last of the litter George married Ann Dobson 1812-1847, on 3 Jun 1837. Apparently it was a grand affair.
They decide not to watch Netflix on no less than six occasions with the following results
Isabella 1838-1838
Elizabeth 1839-1898
Isabella 1841 - 1841
Mary 1843 - 1914
Margaret 1844 - 1847
Isabella 1847 - 1873
Now someone with a sick sense of human might say third time lucky for good little Isabella BUT you see her good luck was her mothers bad with Ann must likely dying in child birth.
So dear little Isabella was given to her aunt Hannah Telford (Hogg) 1801-1850 to raise before she herself died just 5 years later. I hope that had funeral insurance.
Not sure what happened next, a lot of pealing potatoes and scrubbing floors for little Isabella. I'm sure she jumped for joy when she climbed on a ship for good old OZ, that happened in 1862 when she was 15.
Yes she travelled with her step brothers so to speak John & George and sis Lizzy Telford who was married to John Tarbett.
I think!!!!
Chucky
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Dorothy M. McGlinn - B 1908 Sydney D 2000 Sydney. I have a birth index and a death notice, so all good there. But, other than the first name of her mother "Ellen" that's it nothing on parents or before I can't find a shred of evidence. But then I'm no expert.
And yes she was married to a Crocker, William John 1903 - 1988, born in Brunswick, VIC. They lived a large portion of their lives in Killarney Vale on the central coast of NSW.
Chucky, you need to get some basic information. Once you get the marriage certificate for Dorothy and William John, then start a new topic on the Australia board. You need to get the marriage cert. first though.
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So the kids popped out this way
James 1798 - 1881
Hannah 1801 - 1852
William 1802 -
George 1804 - 1891
Chucky, can you re-read my post #78. I fear I have confused you.
Your George is NOT a sibling to James 1798, Ann/Hannah 1801, and William 1802. They belong to a different family.
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HI Chucky
As you continue to look into your HOGG family, you may wish to consider the information I have complied in the attached, regarding the problems with being sure of George Hogg's background.
All the best with your research.
Neale