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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Top-of-the-hill on Thursday 01 April 21 15:59 BST (UK)
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I have been trying to track the merchant navy career of George Collard, and have a few general queries.
Did all ships heading for India and Australia at that time cross to South America, then head back to the Cape?
I presume all information about a ship's whereabouts was carried by returning ships? Would any (reputable?) ship returning home pick up lists from all its ports of call? (I have spent a lot of time lately with the pages of Lloyd's List and it seems quite a complex system.)
With this man, I sometimes come across on documents the letters H C S. He seems to have been with East India Company for a time and I first thought these letters were a mistake for that, but I can't quite make the link.
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H.C.S. means Honourable (East India) Company’s Service
Tony
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Thanks, I thought it ought to be that, but it seemed rather an odd abbreviation.
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Did all ships heading for India and Australia at that time cross to South America, then head back to the Cape?
This is the Clipper Route for sailing ships of the time (too early for steam ships).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_route
Tony
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I searched the Mercantile Navy List from 1849 -1852. No record of him.
Have you searched the Alphabetical Register of Masters 1845-1854. National Archive series BT115
Available from FindMyPast?
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1735548
You are correct regarding the complex nature of Lloyd's List. I did a quick look see. A Captain Collard
came up on a regular basis as master of the London registered ship DUKE OF ROXBURGH. Have you researched this connection?
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Thanks again. I don't think these ships would be classed as clippers, they seem to have wandered around the Far East at times, and I am fairly sure they did not return via Cape Horn, apart from one trip, when they went from Sydney to Valparaiso. I am brushing up my geography (Where is Cuddalore/Cobija/Amoy? - I know now.)
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If you know the name of the ship or the captain, newspapers are often very useful in reporting the progress of voyages.
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Seaweed - Yes, The Duke of Roxburgh is the ship I have mainly been following, before that for a couple of years The Orwell.
The list you pointed me to only has a very short early record, which you helped me with earlier.
As well as the reports from overseas ports in Lloyds List, I have been loving the "ships spoken with" sections.
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Have you searched for DUKE OF ROXBURGH in the London Crew Agreements in the series BT98 at TNA?
1845 BT98/705
1846 BT98/998
1847 BT98/1311
1848 BT98/1666
It appears there are no records for 1849
1850 BT98/2234
You would need to visit Kew when they reopen.
There may be more information contained within which may confirm this Collard is your ancestor and further your research.
Also have you been in touch with London Metropolitan Archives to see if they have him in Lloyds Captains Register. The time line may be a little early but you never know.
I note from Lloyds Register that Collard was the owner of DUKE OF ROXBURGH As well as master. Unless of course it was another family member.
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I have had a hint before that he might have been the owner. Is Lloyds Register on line? There is not much likelihood of visiting Kew, I'm afraid.
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I have had a look at the newspapers and there are over 260 entries for the Duke of Roxburgh between 1840 and 1849. The captain or commander was George P. Collard.
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Yes, that is right - I was using Lloyds List to follow his voyages, I haven't checked any other newspapers.
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I have had a hint before that he might have been the owner. Is Lloyd's Register on line? There is not much likelihood of visiting Kew, I'm afraid.
Yes. Lloyd's Register is on line. Not totally complete though.
https://hec.lrfoundation.org.uk/archive-library/lloyds-register-of-ships-online
https://www.maritimearchives.co.uk/lloyds-register.html
details from 1849
https://archive.org/details/HECORS1849/page/n201/mode/2up
DUKE OF ROXBURGH appears in LR in 1855 when it appears she had new owners and a new master.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rT8SAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:0Ftz6zT302-gFzEJxA5c6C#v=onepage&q&f=false
Note that Lloyds Register can be 2 or 3 years out of date. Do not trust Lloyd's List to be totally accurate.
When? TNA reopens, I will attempt to take a look at the Crew Agreements of DUKE OF ROXBURGH for you. Just give me a nudge now and again. Memory is not what it used to be!
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I have been trying to track the merchant navy career of George Collard, and have a few general queries.
Did all ships heading for India and Australia at that time cross to South America, then head back to the Cape?
It was common practice for sailing ships leaving the UK to head for South America to pick up strong winds (known as the 'Roaring Forties') which the ship made use of as it turned around to make it's way eastwards towards India; Australia etc. This route was also used by convict ships as it reduced the journey time dramatically. The attached image shows the route involved.
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Thanks Allan, I hadn't actually registered before, that on that route, Tasmania comes before Sydney!
Seaweed - thanks for all those links. Archive.org is great, isn't it; I have the printed edition of our parish registers always to hand through it.
Another thought - how were sailing conditions coming home round the Cape of Good Hope and sailing North to England?
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Seaweed they were very useful links.
The maritime archives one initially gave me a computer safety warning of some sort but I checked it on another computer and it was quite safe.
Does merchant shipping refer to anything other than war shipping? I'm a bit confused about exactly what the Merchant Navy was. If a ship is owned by a syndicate of local businessman, and it trades internationally, in Victorian times, does that make it part of the Merchant Navy?
ZAPH
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The British Merchant fleet, commonly known as the Merchant Navy. Is the collective term for all British vessels which were/are involved in commercial trade. It covers, Cruise ships tankers, cargo ships of all descriptions, ferries, fishing Boats. tugs etc. In fact any vessel used in commercial service
The term Merchant Navy has only been in use since 1924 when the then monarch bestowed the term in recognition of the sacrifice made by the Merchant service in WW1. Previously it was known as the Merchant, or Mercantile Marine.
The very nature of Merchant seafaring makes it difficult to create a regimented structure of records. So, yes, they can be confusing to the first time researcher.
The records are not confined to wartime but cover all dates. Records go back as far as 1272 but of course the ravishes of time mean that many have been lost or destroyed.
In answer to your last question. Yes. The ship would be considered to be part of the merchant service. In fact it was common in Victorian times for vessels to be owned by a syndicate.
If you could explain what kind of records you are looking for? We may be able to direct you.
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Thanks Seaweed, that was basically what I needed. Nothing specific, I have many Victorian ancestors who fished and traded ip and down the east coast.
Zaph