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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: MsHistoryMystery on Thursday 01 April 21 16:59 BST (UK)
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Help please.
I'm only used to searching for my Irish family and all Irish records are free (Births, Death, Marriages, Census, Church records etc) Free to search and free to Download.
I have a gap in my ancestors who were from or lived in Scotland, so it's really disappointing to see the records so tied up in having to pay for them. I don't mind paying for copies but not for searches as there's too much potential for paying for the wrong thing (which I have done :-[ )
Are there ANY pre 1915 records that are free?
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Searching the indexes at Scotland's People is free.
Some (but not all) of the older records are indexed on Family Search but only up to 1874 or so. However there is little point using them for pre-1855 events because you get the same information as on SP, and SP is kept up to date with corrections if someone spots and reports them.
It is worth using Family Search for births and marriages between 1855 and 1874.
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Why don't you include some details here on where you are with your Scottish research (names, places and dates) and people may be able to provide you with some sources or info that could help.
Monica
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Also the newly available Kirk Session records are free to view and its quite easy to snip out/screen grab the portions you need so you can save it for later use...though don't tell SP that ;-)
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Searching the indexes at Scotland's People is free.
Some (but not all) of the older records are indexed on Family Search but only up to 1874 or so. However there is little point using them for pre-1855 events because you get the same information as on SP, and SP is kept up to date with corrections if someone spots and reports them.
It is worth using Family Search for births and marriages between 1855 and 1874.
Thanks, I will check Family Search and hopefully find something. The Indexes on Scotland's people aren't much use as you can find 6 or 10 people with the same name and birth year. Not great unless you already know very specific details, which I don't unfortunately :(
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Also the newly available Kirk Session records are free to view and its quite easy to snip out/screen grab the portions you need so you can save it for later use...though don't tell SP that ;-)
Oh what are the Kirk Session records? Are they Scottish Births / Deaths / Marriages / Census?
I have very little to go on
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Why don't you include some details here on where you are with your Scottish research (names, places and dates) and people may be able to provide you with some sources or info that could help.
Monica
Thanks Monica. My family lived in Port Glasgow. My Great Great Grandparents were Helen (or Ellen) McGurk and Hugh Cushnahan. They were married in St John's RC church in April 1876. I have their parents names from their marriage record but that's all the information I have. I would love to know if they were Scottish or Irish and more about the rest of their family.
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Oh what are the Kirk Session records? Are they Scottish Births / Deaths / Marriages / Census?
I have very little to go on
No. They are the records of the Kirk Sessions, which are the committees that run each church/congregation.
Until about the middle of the 19th century they devoted a lot of their time to attempts to stamp out 'sin' among their congregations. 'Sin' could take all sorts of forms, including drunkenness and profaning the sabbath, but by far the majority was fornication or occasionally adultery. Thus the KS records often contain a lot of information about people accused of 'sin'.
There is no alternative to Scotland's People if you want to see original birth, marriage and death certificates after the start of civil registration. This is exactly that same as in England, Australia, New Zealand and many other parts of the world, apart from the fact that the Scottish ones cost a fraction of what most others do. For example you get 4 Scottish certificates for the same as one English certificate - and they are more informative.
As for the census, transcriptions are widely available. They are of variable quality (FreeCEN is the most accurate and Ancestry the worst) and should always be checked by looking at the original.
If you go to a Latter Day Saints' Family History Library you can view microfilms of most of the pre-1855 Church of Scotland registers of baptisms and banns, and of the 1841 to 1891 (or is it 1901?) census. If the FHL you go to doesn't have the correct films in stock, you can arrange for them to get them for a small rental fee. I beieve that the LDS also have films of birth, marriage and death certificates from 1855 to 1874, and 1881 and 1891, but I have never attempted to see one of those.
If you have only needed to search in Ireland so far you are exceptionally lucky that the available records are free. However they don't include all the church records, and there are very few censuses before 1901 - just a handful from 1851, as far as I know.
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My Great Great Grandparents were Helen (or Ellen) McGurk and Hugh Cushnahan. They were married in St John's RC church in April 1876. I have their parents names from their marriage record but that's all the information I have. I would love to know if they were Scottish or Irish and more about the rest of their family.
Look them up in the LDS transcription of the 1881 census which is available free of charge on Scotland's People.
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My family lived in Port Glasgow.
My Great Great Grandparents were Helen (or Ellen) McGurk and Hugh Cushnahan.
They were married in St John's RC church in April 1876.
I have their parents names from their marriage record but that's all the information I have.
I would love to know if they were Scottish or Irish and more about the rest of their family.
Is this the same family?
Mary Jane Cashman [Cushnahan]
Baptism 10 Feb 1877 Ireland, Clonoe, Tyrone Diocese: Armagh
Father: Hugh Cashman Mother: Ellen McGurk
1901 census in Ireland
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Mountjoy/Derrytresk/1737038/
Hugh Cushnahan 45 bn Co Tyrone Head of Family (Head) Occ Carpenter
Elen Cushnahan 45 Wife
Mary Cushnahan 23 Daughter
Joseph Cushnahan 18 Son
Hugh Cushnahan 17 Son
Catherine Cushnahan 15 Daughter
Edward Cushnahan 14 Son
Eliza Cushnahan 12 Daughter
Bridget Cushnahan 8 Daughter
Thomas J Cushnahan 4 Son
What are the parents names of Hugh & Ellen from their marriage
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Oh what are the Kirk Session records? Are they Scottish Births / Deaths / Marriages / Census?
I have very little to go on
No. They are the records of the Kirk Sessions, which are the committees that run each church/congregation.
Until about the middle of the 19th century they devoted a lot of their time to attempts to stamp out 'sin' among their congregations. 'Sin' could take all sorts of forms, including drunkenness and profaning the sabbath, but by far the majority was fornication or occasionally adultery. Thus the KS records often contain a lot of information about people accused of 'sin'.
There is no alternative to Scotland's People if you want to see original birth, marriage and death certificates after the start of civil registration. This is exactly that same as in England, Australia, New Zealand and many other parts of the world, apart from the fact that the Scottish ones cost a fraction of what most others do. For example you get 4 Scottish certificates for the same as one English certificate - and they are more informative.
As for the census, transcriptions are widely available. They are of variable quality (FreeCEN is the most accurate and Ancestry the worst) and should always be checked by looking at the original.
If you go to a Latter Day Saints' Family History Library you can view microfilms of most of the pre-1855 Church of Scotland registers of baptisms and banns, and of the 1841 to 1891 (or is it 1901?) census. If the FHL you go to doesn't have the correct films in stock, you can arrange for them to get them for a small rental fee. I beieve that the LDS also have films of birth, marriage and death certificates from 1855 to 1874, and 1881 and 1891, but I have never attempted to see one of those.
If you have only needed to search in Ireland so far you are exceptionally lucky that the available records are free. However they don't include all the church records, and there are very few censuses before 1901 - just a handful from 1851, as far as I know.
That's all very helpful, thank you. The Kirk Sessions sound like a great read! The Scottish records definitely have a lot more information on them than the Irish ones which is great. Unfortunately they are much poorer quality / harder to read.
I'll do a bit more trawling on your suggestions to nail down this Scottish lot. I guess I am lucky to be Irish and have access to so much for free ;D
Most Irish Church records are free online. The Catholic Parish registers up to 1880 are free to view on the National Library of Ireland Website, however, they aren't indexed by name, only by date. There are further church records free to view on irishgenealogy.ie
It's unfortunate that most of our Census returns were destroyed. They would probably help me to get another generation on my tree
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Is this the same family?
Mary Jane Cashman [Cushnahan]
Baptism 10 Feb 1877 Ireland, Clonoe, Tyrone Diocese: Armagh
Father: Hugh Cashman Mother: Ellen McGurk
1901 census in Ireland
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Mountjoy/Derrytresk/1737038/
Hugh Cushnahan 45 bn Co Tyrone Head of Family (Head) Occ Carpenter
Elen Cushnahan 45 Wife
Mary Cushnahan 23 Daughter
Joseph Cushnahan 18 Son
Hugh Cushnahan 17 Son
Catherine Cushnahan 15 Daughter
Edward Cushnahan 14 Son
Eliza Cushnahan 12 Daughter
Bridget Cushnahan 8 Daughter
Thomas J Cushnahan 4 Son
What are the parents names of Hugh & Ellen from their marriage
Yes, that's the same Family. Mary Jane B:1877 is my great Grandmother's sister.
That's their 1901 Census.
Hugh Cushnahan & Ellen(Helen) McGurk, married in Port Glasgow 24.04.1876
Hugh's Parents were Thomas Cushnahan & Jane McKenna
Ellen(Helen's parents were Edward McGurk & Bridget Mallon
I have no older information than the 1876 marriage record of Hugh & Ellen(Helen) But they seemed to travel back and forth between Port Glasgow & Tyrone Ireland. My own grandfather was born in Port Glasgow. It's strange.
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My Great Great Grandparents were Helen (or Ellen) McGurk and Hugh Cushnahan. They were married in St John's RC church in April 1876. I have their parents names from their marriage record but that's all the information I have. I would love to know if they were Scottish or Irish and more about the rest of their family.
Look them up in the LDS transcription of the 1881 census which is available free of charge on Scotland's People.
Unfortunately, my GG Grandparents were back in Ireland in 1881 and unfortunately, I couldn't find their parents on that Census. The seemed to move back and forth between Ireland & Scotland for generations which is really unhelpful of them :D
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Indeed. Most unhelpful :(
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My family lived in Port Glasgow. My Great Great Grandparents were Helen (or Ellen) McGurk and Hugh Cushnahan. They were married in St John's RC church in April 1876. I have their parents names from their marriage record but that's all the information I have.
The marriage cert. should give the address of each at the time which is another little snippet of their lives.
Then names of witnesses might be helpful, possibly related?
Is this Hugh on VRs (Valuation Rolls)?
CASHMAN HUGH Tenant Occupier
HOUSE SCOTTS LANE, PORT GLASGOW
1876
VR007100014-
CUSHNAHAN HUGH Tenant Occupier
HOUSE DARDANELLES CLOSE, PORT GLASGOW
1895
VR007100018-
Might these 2 entries be father & son?
CUSHNAHAN HUGH Tenant Occupier
HOUSE DOOR 13 10 ASHGROVE LANE, PORT GLASGOW
1905
VR007100028-
CUSHNAHAN HUGH Tenant Occupier
HOUSE 2 LYONS LANE, PORT GLASGOW
1905
VR007100028-
Ditto above 1915 right through until 1941
I only searched for Hugh, I didn't search for others.
Often (not always) the VRs give occupations which may help to determine whether or not he's your Hugh.
You don't say what his occ. was on his marriage or any other record?
"The Indexes on Scotland's people aren't much use as you can find 6 or 10 people with the same name and birth year. Not great unless you already know very specific details, which I don't unfortunately"
I'm sure we all have the same problem with our Scottish people who moved around...it took me 10 attempts (£10.50) to find the death of one of my relatives with a common name but he also had a middle name which wasn't on his BC!
If he'd died in England or elsewhere, I dread to think of the cost (£100 +) i.e. he'd still be on my 'missing' list.
It's a hobby like any other i.e. it's expected to cost us at times, the difference being we have the docs. & info. to pass on to others for future.
I know of many hobbies which would cost me an awful lot more than my genealogy does.
Annie
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The marriage cert. should give the address of each at the time which is another little snippet of their lives.
Then names of witnesses might be helpful, possibly related?
Is this Hugh on VRs (Valuation Rolls)?
CASHMAN HUGH Tenant Occupier
HOUSE SCOTTS LANE, PORT GLASGOW
1876
VR007100014-
CUSHNAHAN HUGH Tenant Occupier
HOUSE 2 LYONS LANE, PORT GLASGOW
1905
VR007100028-
Ditto above 1915 right through until 1941
I only searched for Hugh, I didn't search for others.
Often (not always) the VRs give occupations which may help to determine whether or not he's your Hugh.
You don't say what his occ. was on his marriage or any other record?
Annie
Thanks so much for your reply. I think the 1876 VR VR007100014 could be my Hugh as Scott's Lane is his address on his marriage Cert. I don't think the others are as they were living in Ireland up until the late 1890s and he died in 1906.
Occupation is hard to read on the Marriage record but it looks to me like 'Joiner's Apprentice'. On subsequent documents he gives his occupation as Carpenter so that makes sense.
The McGurk's address on the Marriage Cert was 'Sinclairs Place, Bay Street', so I was able to find Edward McGurk (under many, many different spellings :D on the VR also, so thank you for that.
I don't recognise the Witness names unfortunately.
It must be an expensive hobby for sure. But a very interesting one!
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Hugh Cushnahan & Ellen(Helen) McGurk, married in Port Glasgow 24.04.1876
Hugh's Parents were Thomas Cushnahan & Jane McKenna
Ellen(Helen's parents were Edward McGurk & Bridget Mallon
As the father of Hugh was named Thomas, might this be a brother of Hugh?
CUSHNAHAN THOMAS & MULLIGAN ANNIE 22/6/1874 Glasgow, St Joseph's
Have you managed to trace all 8 siblings?
Annie
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Hugh Cushnahan & Ellen(Helen) McGurk, married in Port Glasgow 24.04.1876
Hugh's Parents were Thomas Cushnahan & Jane McKenna
Ellen(Helen's parents were Edward McGurk & Bridget Mallon
As the father of Hugh was named Thomas, might this be a brother of Hugh?
CUSHNAHAN THOMAS & MULLIGAN ANNIE 22/6/1874 Glasgow, St Joseph's
Have you managed to trace all 8 siblings?
Annie
Yes, it could be! I haven't traced any of his siblings as I'd have to pay a fortune and there are just too many spelling variations of Cushnahan. How did you know he had 8 siblings? I've no idea how many he had.
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Have you managed to trace all 8 siblings?
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I haven't traced any of his siblings as I'd have to pay a fortune and there are just too many spelling variations of Cushnahan. How did you know he had 8 siblings? I've no idea how many he had.
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Sorry, my wording wasn't too obvious as I was referring to the children of Hugh & Ellen, the 8 siblings listed on the 1901 census at Reply #9
Often, if you can find descendants, they can have extra info. we don't have.
Annie
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Sorry, my wording wasn't too obvious as I was referring to the children of Hugh & Ellen, the 8 siblings listed on the 1901 census at Reply #9
Often, if you can find descendants, they can have extra info. we don't have.
Annie
Ah I see, yes, they had 9 Children (that I'm aware of), 1 died between 1879 and 1893 although I wasn't able to find her death record. I was able to find the civil records of 7 of their births, in Ireland. And church records for 2 of those 7. So 2 are missing info. No more knowledge was gained from those records.
I did think it was unusual that most of the children on the Census were listed as "Farmer's Daughter" or "Farmer's Son" when neither parent was a Farmer...
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There's a tree on ancestry for this family, is it your tree?
Edit...I don't think it is your tree...
There are 7 siblings for Hugh Cushnahan with a variant on surname of mother Jane McKenna being McCann & 12 siblings for Ellen McGurk.
Who was the informant on the death of Ellen McGurk/Cushnahan which may hold a few other clues?
Annie
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There's a tree on ancestry for this family, is it your tree?
Edit...I don't think it is your tree...
There are 7 siblings for Hugh Cushnahan with a variant on surname of mother Jane McKenna being McCann & 12 siblings for Ellen McGurk.
Who was the informant on the death of Ellen McGurk/Cushnahan which may hold a few other clues?
Annie
Yes, I have a tree on there, as do 3 / 4 other people (Distant relatives I assume ???). Those details seem right. Jane was only McKenna on Scottish records, she was McCann on Irish records. Since I started this post, found Thomas Cushnaghan (another variant)& Jane McCann's marriage in 1850 in Ireland. I've only found 3 siblings for Hugh and 4 for Ellen McGurk
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I've noticed with my own Scottish/Irish folk, names can vary a lot, probably because of the accent e.g. Mellon - Mallon - Mallin
It appears an 'e' can sound like an 'a' in an Irish accent which I found helpful for my own research.
The DC for Ellen could be a good help, do you have it to see who the informant was & addresses?
Annie
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The McGurk family are at 10 Wood Lane, Port Glasgow in 1881 - you need to be signed in to SP to open the link (free LDS entry)...
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/view-image/nrs_census_lds/1857447?return_row=1
Annie
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Deaths...
MCGURK (Mallen) BRIDGET 48 - MCGRADY (mms) - 1888 - 574/ 26 Port Glasgow
MCGURK EDWARD 54 - MCGURK (mms) - 1894 - 574/ 42 Port Glasgow
CUSHNAHAN (McGurk) ELLEN - 76 - 1932 - 574/ 27 Port Glasgow (to late for mms to be indexed yet)
Bridget (Cushnahan) Quinn - 16 Aug 1951...
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/160001320/bridget-quinn
Annie
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The DC for Ellen could be a good help, do you have it to see who the informant was & addresses?
Annie
I haven't been able to find Ellen's Death Record in Irish Records. I didn't check the Scottish ones though
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The McGurk family are at 10 Wood Lane, Port Glasgow in 1881 - you need to be signed in to SP to open the link (free LDS entry)...
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/view-image/nrs_census_lds/1857447?return_row=1
Annie
Oh wow! That's fantastic, thank you. I didn't find that when I searched. Very helpful, thank you!
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Did you see my reply #24
This is for Thomas Cushnahan, son of Joseph Cushnahan, grandson of Hugh & Ellen...
https://www.magherafeltwardead.co.uk/persondepth.asp?cas_id=896nie
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/15226178/thomas-cushnahan
Annie
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Deaths...
MCGURK (Mallen) BRIDGET 48 - MCGRADY (mms) - 1888 - 574/ 26 Port Glasgow
MCGURK EDWARD 54 - MCGURK (mms) - 1894 - 574/ 42 Port Glasgow
CUSHNAHAN (McGurk) ELLEN - 76 - 1932 - 574/ 27 Port Glasgow (to late for mms to be indexed yet)
Annie
Thank you! Where did you find these?
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Deaths...
MCGURK (Mallen) BRIDGET 48 - MCGRADY (mms) - 1888 - 574/ 26 Port Glasgow
MCGURK EDWARD 54 - MCGURK (mms) - 1894 - 574/ 42 Port Glasgow
CUSHNAHAN (McGurk) ELLEN - 76 - 1932 - 574/ 27 Port Glasgow (to late for mms to be indexed yet)
Annie
Thank you! Where did you find these?
They're on SP exactly as I've posted although the info. in brackets are my additions, which have a corresponding Ref. no. for the surname in CAPITALS :)
Annie
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You may find these useful as many (some not downloadable) give dates of birth which will help you but to download any which are free you need to be logged in - free to join!...
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=cushnahan
Annie
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Thank you! Where did you find these?
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They're on SP exactly as I've posted although the info. in brackets are my additions, which have a corresponding Ref. no. for the surname in CAPITALS :)
Annie
[/quote]
Great! I can't seem to find anything on SP...
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You may find these useful as many (some not downloadable) give dates of birth which will help you but to download any which are free you need to be logged in - free to join!...
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=cushnahan
Annie
Thank you so much, very helpful! I've lots to look at now!
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If you use the exact spelling (the ones in capitals) on SP for each which I've posted with the year & Renfrew & Port Glasgow, they should be easy to find.
Annie
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If you use the exact spelling (the ones in capitals) on SP for each which I've posted with the year & Renfrew & Port Glasgow, they should be easy to find.
Annie
Thanks so much!