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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: philipsearching on Thursday 01 April 21 20:52 BST (UK)
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This post could go into either DNA or Armed Forces - so I post it in The Common Room. :-\
I am wondering what it would cost (assuming CWGC would give permission!) to mount a project to exhume the graves of unnamed servicemen from the Great War and extract DNA. I think it is now CWGC practice to extract DNA from newly discovered remains, but I don't know how many graves exist where the names are unknown. It occurs to me that, with the continuing increase in the numbers of DNA results on family history websites, it should be possible to identify a significant percentage.
(NOTE - I think the "Unknown Soldier" is a national symbol and should remain unnamed).
What are your thoughts? Perhaps a petition or fundraising? Or should the unnamed dead be left undisturbed?
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There are 8,373 burials unidentified in Tyne Cot Cemetery.
There are also 4 German burials, 3 being unidentified.
Assuming a cost of £1000 to extract DNA from each grave.
Results in a cost of over 8 million pounds just for one cemetery.
Tony
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Leave them be I say. Let them rest in peace.
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Although I can understand your reasoning, I think it best to leave well alone.
The First World War ended over 100 years ago. No doubt the immediate family of those unknown will have long ago accepted that they weren't coming back.
I would imagine that most descendants today of First World War casualties are now going to be grandchildren and great grandchildren.
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If it was only a handful of graves then I think it would be nice for the person to have a name, but with the numbers involved and the astronomical cost the I think it is best to leave the graves as they are.
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It’s an interesting idea Philip.
Funny you should mention the Unknown Soldier, because fairly recently I was thinking about the possibility of taking his DNA. I think you are right though and he should remain ‘unknown’.
I think that there probably still aren’t enough people who have taken DNA tests, especially in the UK, to get enough matches, and therefore names. A lot of the fallen were young lads with no children, so I think the chance of finding matches with living people who have taken DNA tests will be slim in many cases. They would be great nieces or nephews or beyond. Once the DNA has been taken who will have the job of finding living relatives (if there are any) who may or may not know that they had a relative who took part in WW1, let alone know their name.
It would be a fascinating project though the logistics and cost would probably be too much.
A decent number of matches for this project:
https://fffaif.org.au/?p=12922
Descendants were called to submit their DNA so matching could be done.
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I saw a program recently where some body remains of a few soldiers (or was it just possessions)
were found and they traced at least two of their living descendants using possessions. Records. & DNA
then had a ceremony
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I was going to post the same as brigidmac.
A few days ago, here in New Zealand, they were playing repeats of Long Lost Family. They did a program on the Unknown Soldier.
They found remains, took DNA and traced family if they could. Reburied in CWGC cemeteries with full honours and family.
I am sure you could find the program on Youtube?
This appears to be an ongoing project.
Carol
not a techie person so can not put uplink. Only been on youtube once by mistake.
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First the whole point of the unknown soldier is that he had not been identified and could therefore symbolise the thousands of soldiers who could not be identified or whose bodies could not be found.
If his DNA taken and he was identified he would no longer stand for those others.
In a similar way if after all this time bodies were exhumed and their DNA taken that would be decisive as many of the fallen were literally blown apart and their body parts were collected and all buried together. These brave men all fell together and were all buried together with their comrades in arms. I believe to start separating them now would be to desecrate their memory.
There would be many whose DNA had been contaminated or had deteriorated too much to sample they would then be abandoned by their companions as those identified would be re-interred elsewhere.
In theory if every man lost could be identified and buried with their ancestors that would be worthwhile but as thousands would not be identified I feel it would be wrong to divide the fallen again, let them rest in peace.
Cheers
Guy
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The “unknown soldier” was deliberately unknown (I think they had three to choose from) and trying to identify him 100 years later would seem to defeat the object although I understand that, at the time, at least 400 mothers claimed to be certain that it was their son.
Testing remains from soldiers that have to be exhumed for other reasons may be worthwhile but I think exhumation for that particular purpose would be a non starter.
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A relative of mine is remembered only by his name on a wall tablet at a CWGC cemetery and the accompanying notes in the remembrance book at the cemetery. His body was never found, so it is not clear exactly where he died, but it seems likely from his unit's WW2 records that it was somewhere near Arnhem. Would it help to find his remains through DNA testing now? He still has living children who might derive some comfort from that, since they were too young to have any memories of him in life. Personally I would let him lie with his comrades, if that is where he is now.
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There are 8,373 burials unidentified in Tyne Cot Cemetery.
There are also 4 German burials, 3 being unidentified.
Assuming a cost of £1000 to extract DNA from each grave.
Results in a cost of over 8 million pounds just for one cemetery.
Tony
Not just the cost of extracting DNA either. Suppose they didn't find any living matches what would they do then? Suppose they did find matches but those people weren't interested in taking this forward? Would these cases be seen as unnecessary cost?
Pheno
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I am sure a huge percentage of the "unknown soldier" graves are cenotaphs either dedicated to a number of them or a cenotaph for each soldier, and as Guy said, their bodies were never found, so their remains are somewhere else.
The ones whose remains were found but they were never identified should just remain buried in the ground and be able to rest in peace forever.
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An interesting idea but one fraught with issues as other have commented on.
My uncle was killed on 27 May 1918 aged 19 near Soissons, he has no know grave but is recorded on the CWGC cenotaph there. My grand parents only knew he been killed, not when or where, my grandfather wrote to everyone he could think of to no result. It was a 'comfort' to him and my grandmother when the grave of the unknown soldier was set up, they had the thought like very many other grieving parents/siblings/wives/children that it might be their son etc.
I found out soon after the CWGC site was set up on-line where and when he died and where he was commemorated, that was a great comfort to my father and the other remaining siblings. I was able to download photos of the cenotaph to show them together with a map of the area. What I did not tell them was that my uncle was killed in a feint designed to disguise the true location of an upcoming attempt to gain some ground. The Feint had no real target or aim apart from confusing the Germans and I know that that would have shattered my father and his siblings if they'd known that. I think they were regarded as 'acceptable casualties' by the generals miles back from the front as in Blackadder. The main push also disastrously failed so basically his death/life was rendered worthless and valueless.
Personally I'd leave the poor guys in peace among their comrades. OK if 'new' remains are found then trying to trace their relatives I can see the point of especially for the re-burial in a CWGC cemetery but I'd prefer those already buried in a CWGC cemetery or other known cemetery site to remain undisturbed.
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Around 60% of the 1,000,000 + British & Commonwealth war dead
are unknown meaning every cemetery would become an archaeological
dig site for decades to come.
It's not going to happen even if enough money was raised which would run into
100's of 1,000,000's.
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An appalling idea and wrong on so many levels.
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I suspect much more would be accomplished if
we all became living memorials of those who died.
Fight against discrimination violence and cruelty.
Support those fleeing war.
Welcome refugees.
Look after the poor and weak
the widowed and the orphaned
support Legacy and the UNHCR
the wounded and the maimed
the powerless and the poor
those damaged by war.
Fight the spread of weapons and of hate.
Clear mines, revegetate , do not let the wealthy steal from the poor.
Be kind to others,
Do not base one's own worth on being better or of better status than others.
Then we might truly honour the dead and those who mourned them.
And those who lived or maybe still live with dreadful wounds.
If too controversial I'm truly sorry
pH
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My husbands great uncle is remembered on the Loos addendum,we we have no idea where he is buried,but he’s remembered in our family histories.
Barb
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Pheno
I totally support that
Lovely philosophy
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I have a relative, Jim, whose death I know quite a lot about because the Tank Corps battle sheet and Australian unit war diary (his tank battalion was supporting the AIF) detail the action. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Vis-en-Artois memorial to the missing. He probably took a direct hit in his tank, which then burned.
So many soldiers suffered a similar fate, obliterated by shellfire, to say nothing of those who literally disappeared in the mud (or at sea, etc). I think that one should simply visit the memorial to mourn such soldiers if physical presence is wanted. My great aunt was engaged to Jim (her cousin). I know she went to the continent after the war but I’m not sure if she visited the memorial. I probably know more about Jim’s fate than she did, thanks to modern access to these records. I think we should leave the dead to their rest and be thankful that we can learn so much about them.
Dave