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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: EllieD1432 on Friday 02 April 21 13:35 BST (UK)
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Hello
RootsChat has been a saviour in regard to a prior mystery, this one might be a little tougher.
It appears that I am descended from British Loyalists in Canada - my 3 x Great Grandfather Frederick Danville (1830-1914) married Phoebe Carpenter (Golding, Shaw, Gerow and Merritt families)
I have found 3 children that I can confirm are Frederick and Phoebe's - Rebecca b:1856, Franklin b:1858, Victor Alexis b:1858. My DNA connection to my 2 x Great Grandfather, also Frederick, puts him as their first child (born between 1852 & 1854) but I can find no birth details anywhere. ??? His Merchant Navy records state that he is a 'Man of Colour' and born in St John, New Brunswick. I have a photograph of people I am assuming are his Aunts and Uncles, who are all white - The first place I can locate him is in the 1881 English Census in Falmouth, Cornwall. His death, as reported in an English newspaper in 1894, states that he was a black man. So many questions...is his colour a genetic anomaly? Did his mother have a child by someone of colour? I have been researching my Danville family for many years and this is where I get stuck.
Can anyone help please?
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"Man of Colour" means he was black and it depends on the parents genes.
There was television show not that many years ago of a chap in Hamilton, ON finding his fathers family in the Maritimes. They were black he wasn't.
Here is a list of UEL names.
http://www.uelac.org/Loyalist-Info/loyalist_list.php?letter=d
Don
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EllieD,
Have you been able to find any records that might list the race or skin colour of the three known children (Rebecca, Franklin and Victor)?
How have you connected your Frederick Danville (d. 1894) to Frederick Danville (d. 1914) and Phoebe Carpenter?
Regards,
Josephine
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Hello
The 1920 US State Census has Rebecca listed as white, none of the Canadian Census documents have skin colour though it does say Irish for Frederick (d.1914)
On Frederick's (d. 1894) maritime details (pic attached) it states his parents were George Frederick and Elizabeth who I have as his Grandparents who both died before he was born!
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New Brunswick archives show a marriage bond between a Frederick Danville and Phoebe Ann Carpenter in 1866. Doubt if you got the actual document it would have more than their names and their bondsman/witness whatever purpose the third party served.
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Hi Don - Thanks for the link, I hope that Archelaus Carpenter and Rebecca Golding are my 6 x Great Grandparents, definitely food for thought
Here is a list of UEL names.
http://www.uelac.org/Loyalist-Info/loyalist_list.php?letter=d
Don
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EllieD,
Just to clarify, what documentation do you have linking your Frederick (d. 1894) to Frederick (d. 1914) and Phoebe Carpenter?
Is it a DNA link that you are trying to prove?
Regards,
Josephine
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On Frederick's (d. 1894) maritime details (pic attached) it states his parents were George Frederick and Elizabeth who I have as his Grandparents who both died before he was born!
Did Frederick's (d. 1894) obit list his parents? Is there a tombstone on his grave and does it list his parents?
Was Frederick (d. 1894) married to your 2x-g-grandmother (or anyone else)? If yes, does his marriage record list his parent(s)?
I'm just trying to ascertain what other info might be out there.
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I don't have any documentation linking him to the Danville/Carpenter union.
After arriving in Falmouth, England in 1881, he married Eliza Benbow in the first quarter of that year. I am awaiting delivery of the certificate. He died of a heart attack on board his ship in Grimsby, Yorkshire. I don't know where he was buried, Eliza died the year before and 3 of his children were in the Seaman's Mission Workhouse in Hull, Yorkshire.My DNA connection with he and the Benbows are confirmed.
I know Ancestry DNA connections can be flaky at times, but the ThruLines indicate that my Danville heritage is the line from New Brunswick.
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The newspaper report of his death
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It's good to know your starting point.
I'm wondering if this query might have a better chance if it was moved to the DNA board? (I don't actually know, so it's just a thought.)
I've read that, in some places, the designation of a person being "coloured" or "of colour" could indicate that s/he had a mixed racial heritage. Would that have been the case in Frederick's (d. 1894) documentation, I wonder?
If so, given his approximate date of birth, and the date of the marriage bond for the senior Frederick (d. 1914) and Phoebe, it might be a question of which one of them was his parent.
It seems a bit odd that he didn't list the senior Frederick and Phoebe as his parents on his naval records, if Phoebe was his mother and Frederick was his step-father (for example). Hopefully the marriage record will be informative.
I can see him listing his grandparents as his parents if that's who raised him, but if they were dead before he was born, that seems odd.
Are the ThruLines saying that you are genetically related to Frederick Danville (d. 1914) and his wife Phoebe?
Do you have obits for the senior Frederick (d. 1914) and Phoebe? If so, are their children listed?
Have you found obits for the three known children of the senior Frederick and Phoebe, in case their siblings are listed?
I'm just trying to think of other sources that might list relationships.
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His death, as reported in an English newspaper in 1894, states that he was a black man.
The only reports I could find say that he was coloured, not black.
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'Are the ThruLines saying that you are genetically related to Frederick Danville (d. 1914) and his wife Phoebe?'
Yes they are, which makes this even more confusing. I think in this instance he may be of mixed race, but I can find nobody in the preceding generations that may also be mixed race.
'Do you have obits for the senior Frederick (d. 1914) and Phoebe? If so, are their children listed?'
I can't find any obituaries, not sure where to look tbh. I only have British newspapers access and Ancestry collections but can't find anything
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Just to add to the confusion, I see that Frederick was George Frederick in both the 1881 census and the 1881 marriage.
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Just to add to the confusion, I see that Frederick was George Frederick in both the 1881 census and the 1881 marriage.
Yes, and then Frederick on his maritime records and death details ( ::)
Ny Grandfather is Frederick Thomas, and my Father is Brian Frederick....no imagination eh? ;D
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'Do you have obits for the senior Frederick (d. 1914) and Phoebe? If so, are their children listed?'
I can't find any obituaries, not sure where to look tbh. I only have British newspapers access and Ancestry collections but can't find anything
When and where did the senior Frederick and Phoebe die?
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Gravestone for both Frederick and Phoebe
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Do you know if he (Frederick senior) was the same Frederick E. Danville whose wife Rebecca died in 1861, per the following from the Daniel F. Johnson collection on the Provincial Archives of New Brunswick (PANB) website?
New Brunswick Courier (Saint John), Sept. 28, 1861
"d. Indian Town (St. John), Wednesday 25th inst., Rebecca E. DANVILLE w/o Frederick E. DANVILLE and d/o Thomas GOLDING of Long Island (Queens Co.), MN: Funeral Saturday 11 o'clock"
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Do you know if he (Frederick senior) was the same Frederick E. Danville whose wife Rebecca died in 1861, per the following from the Daniel F. Johnson collection on the Provincial Archives of New Brunswick (PANB) website?
Errrrrrrr No! I have her in my tree but no spouse listed :o
Could he have been married before? There are 2 branches of Carpenters that have intermarried in places, this has probably caused me to miss some things
New Brunswick Courier (Saint John), Sept. 28, 1861
"d. Indian Town (St. John), Wednesday 25th inst., Rebecca E. DANVILLE w/o Frederick E. DANVILLE and d/o Thomas GOLDING of Long Island (Queens Co.), MN: Funeral Saturday 11 o'clock"
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That would Rebecca Golding Frederick (1852-4), Rebecca Ella and possibly Franklin's mother
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Do you know if he (Frederick senior) was the same Frederick E. Danville whose wife Rebecca died in 1861, per the following from the Daniel F. Johnson collection on the Provincial Archives of New Brunswick (PANB) website?
Errrrrrrr No! I have her in my tree but no spouse listed :o
Could he have been married before? There are 2 branches of Carpenters that have intermarried in places, this has probably caused me to miss some things
New Brunswick Courier (Saint John), Sept. 28, 1861
"d. Indian Town (St. John), Wednesday 25th inst., Rebecca E. DANVILLE w/o Frederick E. DANVILLE and d/o Thomas GOLDING of Long Island (Queens Co.), MN: Funeral Saturday 11 o'clock"
It's possible that he was married before.
I'm wondering if Rebecca's middle name might have been Elizabeth.
I think it's probably worth your while to go through everything again, starting with questioning all of your assumptions, and looking at the reasons why you made them. You've got DNA connections but no paper trail, so it's probably safest not to make too many assumptions.
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That would Rebecca Golding Frederick (1852-4), Rebecca Ella and possibly Franklin's mother
Potentially. You'd need to try to find documentation to prove it.
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I'm really grateful for your time, thanks very much!
I'm off to do a bit more research
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You're welcome, EllieD. Let us know if you find any leads. It would be great if you could solve your mystery!
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Hello
I have found 3 children that I can confirm are Frederick and Phoebe's - Rebecca b:1856, Franklin b:1858, Victor Alexis b:1858.
Can you please confirm those birth dates?
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At Falmouth, April 18. Mr George Frederick Danville, mariner, to Miss Elizabeth Ann Benbow, both of Falmouth
(29 April 1881 - Royal Cornwall Gazette, and also Cornubian and Redruth Times)