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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Evenmoresmiths on Monday 05 April 21 07:23 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am looking for direct relatives of a Scottish family called Smith who migrated to Ceylon in the 1800's to grow first tea and then coffee. John Arbuthnott Smith and Augusta Mary Isabel Griffin married in Ceylon in 1878. Alfred Cecil Arbuthnott Smith was the second of seven children all born in Ceylon. He moved to Queensland, Australia. One other brother, Charles Owen, came to Australia with him or followed him. Not sure which. Alfred pops up in Queensland in 1913 where he goes on to marry and have one child, a daughter. The daughter may or may not have been a product of the marriage and that is my mystery to solve. The daughter grew up, married, and went on to become my mother in law. The rest of the family left Ceylon probably after the father died in 1894. Augusta died in 1900. So now I am seeking anyone who may be related to this family and hold information, photographs, letters about the family, but particularly, Alfred and his daughter. Any contributions welcomed.
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Hi there,
Welcome. :D :D
I am in NSW, Australia and I have checked my SMITH records, just in case. Alas, none with the middle name of Arbuthnott.
I think you will get good help from the regulars at RootsChat's Australia board (currently your request has landed on the Graveyards and Gravestones board).
Do you have the Qld BDM issued birth registration for your mother in law? It should be quite detailed including information about her parents, their origins, ages, occupations ... As she was born more than 100 years ago, in Queensland, any member of the general public can purchase an image that birth registration and download it.
If you want your thread moved, just use the Report to Moderator button :)
JM
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There are a few mentions of an "Alfred C A SMITH" on trove that may be of interest:
https://trove.nla.gov.au
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article169781131
Wife and daughter travelling to England for marriage of wife's sister Joyce in 1929.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article172951895
Marriage in England of wife's niece Eileen in 1933.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article173195190
Alfred nominating someone for an election in 1935.
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Hi,
Albert Cecil Arbuthnot Smith pops up on the 1910 Queensland State Electoral Roll as a farmer at Mirani. Registered to vote on 19th Jan 1910.
Gerry
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Alfred Cecil Smith is next of kin on WW1 service record of Charles Owen Smith (born about 1880 Colombo Ceylon) in 1915. AC Smith living Miriani, Mackay QLD. C O Smith listed as living Brisbane, but he died in QLD, buried Melbourne and probate was granted in 1961 in Victoria.
Not sure it helps you.
shume australia
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I thought the name sounded familiar, there is a previous thread. Have never posted a link before so hope this works.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=545449.0
Regards
Jennaya
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http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article169781131
Wife and daughter travelling to England for marriage of wife's sister Joyce in 1929.
The marriage was between Robert A SAMMONS and Aileen L J WEBB (registered at Kensington June qtr 1929). An engagement notice reads:
"Mr. R. A Sammons and Miss Webb
The engagement is announced between Robert A Sammons , M.B., Ch.B., of Kingswood, Bristol, and Joy, only daughter of Captain and Mrs. Clement Webb, Fernwood, Ashford, Middlesex."
Tuesday, Oct. 2, 1928, The Times
Clement WEBB married Annie Florence PATTERSON registered at Shardlow, Derby in March qtr 1907 (their son Charles Fortescue WEBB mmn PATTERSON was born Derby Jun qtr 1908 - an engagement notice for him similar to that above appears in the Times on Thursday, Sept. 26, 1935.)
So Alfred's wife, Sarah Amelia PATTERSON, was not the sister of the Aileen Joy WEBB, but possible an Aunt. :-\
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I thought the name sounded familiar, there is a previous thread. Have never posted a link before so hope this works.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=545449.0
Regards
Jennaya
Agh, there's info there to be followed up :) Add, Well found Jennaya.
My fault, yetanothersmith, I thought you were able to receive my Personal Message as you showed 3 postings. Perhaps if you just acknowledge this, and your tally goes up to 4 I'll try again as you have all that data in the Bible and I can fill in the odd gap.
Yes, Charles Owen Smith was in the Peninsular War (Boer?) then in WW1 in an Australian Ambulance Corp and if we ignore the horrific scenes he must have had to deal with in France at the time, the worst that happened to him seemed to be mumps! There are 24 pages of his War Record (with born in Colombo in) in the Australian AIF. He appeared not to marry and died in Brisbane Australia in 1960.
Alfred Cecil (Arbuthnott) Smith arrived in Australia in 1913, on a ship ex New York, was a farmer in Mackay, Queensland, Australia, used as Next of Kin by brother Charles Owen during WW1. At some time he married Sarah Amelia Patterson, had one daughter Edna Joyce, and Alfred died in 1959, a year before Charles Owen.
A researcher at the Mackay, Queensland, Family History Society has been wonderful and has just sent me a photo of Alfred and Sarah's grave plus other details. She cannot find theri marriage in UK, Queensland or in New South Wales Australia. Nor the birth of their daughter!
So as son as I can finally PM you to swap email addresses, I am happy to pass on what I have if you would like it. I would love to know who you are descended from? Have been trying to work it out? Was it Robert Arthur?
Looking forward to hearing from you
Faith
So So I gather that its Alfred who married Sarah Amelia, and they had a daughter. This current thread is about that daughter.
JM
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In the 1911 census at Mansfield, Nottinghamshire is the family of Clement WEBB and visitor - Sarah A PATTERSON (21, single, born Plymouth).
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWS3-MGD
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Qld bdm online
Death
29 Dec 1938
Sarah Amelia Arbuthews SMITH, father as William PATTERSON
#1939/C/657
I wonder if there was an informal use of the surname as ARBUTHNOTT-SMITH ?
JM
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Clement WEBB married Annie Florence PATTERSON registered at Shardlow, Derby in March qtr 1907
They were married 12 Jan 1907 at St Giles, Normanton. Annie Florence's father is Edward PATTERSON, deceased. (Clement's father is George Fortescue WEBB, doctor of medicine.) Sarah PATTERSON is a witness.
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Sarah Amelia's funeral announcement
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/169399442? Daily Mercury 30 Dec 1938.
The funeral of the late Sarah Amelia Smith, dearly beloved wife of Alfred Cecil Smith, of Miranl,will move from Holy Trinity Church, Mackay, this day at 3.30 p.m. to the Mackay Cemetery.Friends will please accept this the only Intimation and invitation, ALEX. GRANT, Funeral Director.
ADD
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168826127 Daily Mercury 10 Jan 1939...
The death occurred last Friday of Sarah Amelia Smith, wife of Mr. A. C. Smith, of Mirani, after a short illness.The deceased lady was recently taken south to a specialist fortreatment, but without avail. A husband and daughter survive ...
JM
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Trying to work out when Sarah Amelia PATTERSON arrived in Oz -
A Clement WEBB travelled to Brisbane arriving on the Rimutaka on 24 Aug 1911. Then there is an arrival of Florence A WEBB and children Charlie and Joyce on 17 Jan 1914 on the Orama.
Modified to add:
Missed it - Sarah PATTERSON (aged 20) travelled on the Rimutaka arriving Brisbane 24 Aug 1911.
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Also, for interest, Sarah Amelia PATTERSON and (large) family including sister Annie Florence can be found in 1901 at the Normanton Barracks:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSJK-MKN
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Hi,
Albert Cecil Arbuthnot Smith pops up on the 1910 Queensland State Electoral Roll as a farmer at Mirani. Registered to vote on 19th Jan 1910.
Gerry
Qld Electoral Roll South Brisbane 1914
Sarah Amelia SMITH, confectioner's assistant, Russell St, Registered 19 August 1910 EDIT to strike though, unlikely to be the lass, see Maddy's post with possible arrival of Sarah PATTERSON in 1911.
Trying to work out when Sarah Amelia PATTERSON arrived in Oz -
A Clement WEBB travelled to Brisbane arriving on the Rimutaka on 24 Aug 1911. Then there is an arrival of Florence A WEBB and children Charlie and Joyce on 17 Jan 1914 on the Orama.
Modified to add:
Missed it - Sarah PATTERSON (aged 20) travelled on the Rimutaka arriving Brisbane 24 Aug 1911.
Qld ER MIRANI 1914
Alfred Cecil Arbuthnot SMITH, Mirani, farmer Registered 19 January 1910
Cecil Owen SMITH, Post Office, Mirani, farm labourer, Registered 12 July 1910
- none listed as Sarah Amelia Smith at Mirani.
Qld ER MacKay 1916 and 1917
Alfred Cecil SMITH, Arbuthnot, Mirani, farmer but NO Sarah Amelia SMITH for that polling place (it was not yet compulsory to enrol)
Qld ER MacKay 1922
Sarah Amelia SMITH, Arbuthnott, Mirani, home duties (yes, two 't')
Alfred Cecil, Arbuthnot, Mirani, farmer (yes, one 't')
JM
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Just confirming info with an image :)
Crew List 'of what nation' CEYLON
Alfred Cecil SMITH, aged 16, of Ceylon, Apprentice on the Barque - Edinburgh, from New York to Sydney, arriving Sydney NSW 13 January 1897.
http://marinersandships.com.au/1897/01/media/058edi.gif
JM
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FOUND MARRIAGE
Sarah Amelia HARWOOD married Alf Cecil Arbuthnott SMITH in Victoria in 1915. #505
Sarah Amelia PATTERSON had previously married Francis Pearcival Armstrong HARWOOD in Qld 4 January 1913.
ADD the information on Victoria's BDM records is very very detailed. It will include information given by both Sarah and Alfred. Sarah will have been asked about her previous marriage and how it had ended (widowhood or divorce) and the date it ended, and if any children of that previous marriage.
See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=373754.0
The Vic BDM online site :
You can order and download immediately, using your plastic card. I think it is around $20
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history
JM
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Well done JM, I saw that HARWOOD marriage and wondered, but still couldn't find a HARWOOD/SMITH marriage. :D
Francis Percival Armstrong HARWOOD died 16 June 1913 (1913/C/1538)
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Thank yo
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article169781131
Wife and daughter travelling to England for marriage of wife's sister Joyce in 1929.
The marriage was between Robert A SAMMONS and Aileen L J WEBB (registered at Kensington June qtr 1929). An engagement notice reads:
"Mr. R. A Sammons and Miss Webb
The engagement is announced between Robert A Sammons , M.B., Ch.B., of Kingswood, Bristol, and Joy, only daughter of Captain and Mrs. Clement Webb, Fernwood, Ashford, Middlesex."
Tuesday, Oct. 2, 1928, The Times
Clement WEBB married Annie Florence PATTERSON registered at Shardlow, Derby in March qtr 1907 (their son Charles Fortescue WEBB mmn PATTERSON was born Derby Jun qtr 1908 - an engagement notice for him similar to that above appears in the Times on Thursday, Sept. 26, 1935.)
So Alfred's wife, Sarah Amelia PATTERSON, was not the sister of the Aileen Joy WEBB, but possible an Aunt. :
Thank you for this. Aileen Lucy Joyce Webb is Annie Florence Patterson's daughter. I knew about them. Any information is good information for me. So now I just have to find where Sarah and Alfred's daughter (my mother in law RIP) came from. May have been adopted or an intra family adoption. That is the mystery.
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So now I just have to find where Sarah and Alfred's daughter (my mother in law RIP) came from. May have been adopted or an intra family adoption. That is the mystery.
Do you know your mother-in-law's birth date? That may help to track down a birth certificate. I'm assuming she was Edna Joyce ?
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That is the $50,000 question. She had no birth certificate. She does not exist in BDM's for Qld, NSW, or Vic as Edna Joyce. Nor can I find her on UK Free BMD. I have 2 possible birth dates which have not panned out. This is why I think she was either adopted or an unwanted child from another part of the family in the UK. I have done a lot research looking for possibilities, so far, without success. She may have been Alfred Cecil Smith's daughter but I don't believe Sarah Amelia Patterson Harwood Smith is her birth mother. Never the less, Joyce loved Sarah. I saw another post about the corruption of Arbuthnott. Some typist had a bad day when Sarah Amelia's death certificate was produced. She is listed as Sarah Amelia Arbuthews Smith, which is a typo as far as I can tell.
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Hi,
From the 1915 marriage of Alfred and Sarah, .... any children noted on that Vic bdm marriage cert?
JM.
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No children listed on the marriage certificate, and absolutely no known reason for the marriage to have been solemnized in Melbourne. Long way to go when you are already living west of Mackay in Queensland. Her family as in her children are reasonably sure Edna Joyce was born in 1919 or 1920. Because of an event that happened to Joyce later in life, an earlier birthdate is not really feasible. I also have photos taken in 1926 so its almost certain she could not have been born before 1919 or 1920.
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Was Edna baptised and if so, were there Godparents .... sometimes drawn from extended family, but also from the close friends of the baby's parents. Perhaps seeking out descendants of Godparents may lead to contacting people who are stuck with a Qld birth from 1920s and cannot find what happened next.
Qld bdm marriage certs are not as informative as Vic bdm ones, but does Edna's qld marriage give :
Her then age,
Her place of birth
Her father's name and occupation
Her mother's name and former names including maiden names
And if she was not yet 21 when marrying, the m.c. May note who gave consent for her to be married and their relationship. For example, I have seen Qld marriage registration where the consent was noted as yyyy ZZZZ, foster mother of the groom gave written consent for...... That was for a lad aged 20 years to marry in 1943.
ADD the bride was already 22, so she gave her own consent simply by her own signature on the documentation. :)
JM
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That is the $50,000 question. She had no birth certificate. She does not exist in BDM's for Qld, NSW, or Vic as Edna Joyce. Nor can I find her on UK Free BMD. I have 2 possible birth dates which have not panned out.
Yes, I didn't think you knew exactly when, just wondered if you had an approximate date, such as did you celebrate her birthday on a particular day? That may help in tracking down a birth. (Although I know these things are flexible! My mil celebrates her birthday seemingly on a different date every year, and OH found out just a couple of years ago that he is actually a year older than we all thought.)
Have looked for a travel record of Sarah Amelia and daughter in 1929, hoping it may have age and place of birth, but no luck so far ...
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One of the more recent features of Qld BDM online website allows for some wildcard searches .... so if you 'know' someone's likely day and month birthdate, but are unsure of year, it can be worthwhile 'trawling', if their marriage cert (most Australian States give then age and place of birth of the bride and the groom) gives their then age when marrying ...
For example,
entering Edna Joy* or just Edna for given name and *S or just * for surname and then selecting Births and the option of years ... so 1915 to 1924 1921 (oops, 100 year rule !) and then trawl, remembering to keep on scrolling when you get to the option to 'show more results' .... reason .... the Qld bdm online index displays the day and month as well as the year ;D ;D ;D and 'Edna Joy*' gives Edna and Joy/Joyce whereever they occur as given names within that 1915-1924 (oops, 100 year rule) parameter.... not just in that sequence, and could be middle names :)
But if you knew for example that she was born 25 December, but not sure of the year .... wow ... or if you knew from her marriage certificate that she was 19 when married ... that is helpful in further restricting the years ....
Also, have you considered DNA for extended members of your husband's line ?
JM EDITED, I ... yep ME .... I forgot the 100 year rule :-[ :-[ :-[ I am in hot water from my rellies, including both the NSW BDM retired Senior Officers .. ... :-X :-X ::) ::) :-[ :-[ :-[
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Hi, thanks for the ideas. I have tried all of your suggestions several times, searching various ways. I even tried going through every female born the the birth dates we know about. No joy whatsoever. I have the marriage certificate which states Edna Joyce was 21 when she married, and her Dad did agree to the marriage. However, I have also found lots of anomalies with the information provided by dear old Dad. I believe her Dad was very good at hiding the real deal. I also tried to find her baptism certificate. Found out from the relevant Anglican Diocese, coincidentally where I used to work, that the records from the period I was interested in were not kept by the Diocese but by the priest who would have done the baptism. He entered the details in a book which he kept and took with him to his next posting, so stymied again. Waiting on a response from Anglican Diocese of Melbourne about the marriage records and whether Banns were read etc. Might jag something there.
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There's an online tree that gives her date of birth as 17 August 1920, and place as Melbourne Victoria. It also has her death as 15 May 1999, Mackay, Queensland and her marriage and various children (marked as private). Sarah is there with two 'tt' in her maiden name, both marriages. Alfred too, with his ancestors and arrived as 13 January 1897... and the tree owner last signed in '3-11 months ago'.
So perhaps there's a starting point for some fresh eyes to look for a birth in Victoria BDM ... 1920 is more than 100 years ago ... :)
Add, Qld BDM online index have the marriage as 6 September 1941 so I can understand why her father had given permission for her to marry. .... Banns, three consectutive Sundays ... so close to her 17 August 1920 + 21 years... so I see nothing amiss there. Plus the CoE clergy ought to have submitted his baptisms to the Diocese, but some were remiss ... however, have you looked for his next postings ... here's a good link to help with some biographical details and postings about each CofE Reverend. http://anglicanhistory.org/aus/cci/ (cable index ... scroll down !)
I am very NSW centric, so I am not much chop with Vic BDM searchings. Sorry.
JM
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That tree belongs to my sister in law. She had a little dabble quite some time ago using Ancestry. However, some of the information on the tree is incorrect. The birth date is quoted is the one the family used for all of Joyce's life. However, I recently found information to dispute the date. Once, again, if she was born in Victoria, it was not as Edna Joyce or Joy. The marriage date is correct, and I am sitting beside one of the products of that marriage as I type. You have just confirmed what I vaguely remembered about Banns being 3 consecutive Sundays. I want to look at passenger lists for coastal sailings because Alfred would have had to sail from Mackay to Melbourne. I believe Find My Past has the rights to that information. I will look at the link you sent relating to C of E. Thank you