RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: garlands on Tuesday 06 April 21 11:56 BST (UK)
-
On 10 May 1818, Lucy MARSH m Joseph DOWNER in Downton, Wilts.
I've failed to find the DOWNER family in 1841; in all later censuses, Lucy gives her birth as Guildford, 1797/8, but I cannot find her. There is a MARSH family in the area at that time, with parents James & Phoebe and children:-
Phoebe, 1798
Absalom, 1800
Jane, 1801
Parents James & Phoebe were still in the area in 1841.
Young Phoebe seems to vanish. I've not found a death or marriage for her. Did she mutate into Lucy?
Can anyone help, please?
-
Witnesses at their marriage are Mark Downer and Hannah Downer who signed
bride and groom made their mark
-
Thanks.
Joseph's father was named Mark, but his mother was Elizabeth, so I guess the witnesses were his brother and sister or sister-in-law.
Joseph & Lucy named their first daughter (in 1823) Phoebe so, after investigating all other options, I now believe that the Phoebe baptized in 1798 must have changed her name to Lucy, then passed her baptismal name (and her mother's) on to her daughter. There are too many co-incidences for this not to be the case, although I am open to correction.
I shall leave this thread open for a while longer just in case.
-
The Joseph / Lucy Downers were not that strict with their naming pattern.
If Josephs parents were Mark and Elizabeth they named a son Mark but no daughter Elizabeth, they called them Phoebe, Matilda & Harriet
If Lucys father was James they had several sons before finally naming one James in 1839, they also took their time to name one Joseph ;D.
Mark c1819
Mathew c1825
Luke c1828
John c1834
Charles c1837
James c1839
Joseph 1842
Have you traced the siblings of the Phoebe born to James & Phoebe after their baptisms - Absolom & Jane.
-
Joseph Downer was actually married before. He married Sarah Ansell 20 October 1814 witness William Ansell.
They had:
Eliza bap 24 November 1815- ?
Louisa bap 4 April 1817 buried 2 May 1817
His wife Sarah was buried 24 April 1817 age 29 wife of Joseph.
Sarah was the eldest daughter of William Ansell and Mary Musselwhite married 30 October 1786 at Britford, William was of Witherington in Downton.
Sarah Ansel bap 27 April 1788
William Ansell bap 22 November 1789
Betty Ancel bap 27 March 1791
George Ansel bap 28 September 1792 buried 19 June 1802 age 9
Mary Ansel bap 4 May 1794 buried 12 June 1812 age 17
Edward Ansel bap 10 April 1796 buried 13 April 1849
Edeth Ansel bap 29 July 1798
James Ansel born 1807? buried 10 October 1807 infant of William and Mary
Hanah Ansel born 1807? buried 22 November 1807 infant of William and Mary
-
Many thanks - you've been busy!
I haven't done the research mentioned in your earlier post, but I hope to do so later today.
-
Rosie
1. There are very few instances of the name Absolom MARSH in the early 19th century. No likely burial and only one possible marriage.
Absolom MARSH m Mary HOBBS, 22.03.1823 in Street, Somerset.
In 1841, this couple lived in Mere, Wilts
2. Jane MARSH much more common, but it looks as if she remained in the Guildford area
James BALCHIN m Jane MARSH, 31.12.1820 in Stoke next Guildford
In 1841, Jane BALCHIN lived in Godalming with her son, James (age 14), no husband listed
3. Phoebe MARSH (senior) appears to have died in 1847 in the Guildford area
-
Rosie
1. There are very few instances of the name Absolom MARSH in the early 19th century. No likely burial and only one possible marriage.
Absolom MARSH m Mary HOBBS, 22.03.1823 in Street, Somerset.
In 1841, this couple lived in Mere, Wilts
Possibly the Absalom that was baptised at Glastonbury in 1798
They baptised a daughter at Glastonbury 14 Nov 1823 and a son William 13 May 1832 at Ditcheat - fathers occ Shoe Maker.
I am only looking for them in case they give clues to that Phoebe :)
-
2. Jane MARSH much more common, but it looks as if she remained in the Guildford area
James BALCHIN m Jane MARSH, 31.12.1820 in Stoke next Guildford
In 1841, Jane BALCHIN lived in Godalming with her son, James (age 14), no husband listed
She is in Guildford in 1841,1851 & 1861 with her husband and lots of children, no other clues though.
-
Many thanks for all your efforts.
Do you think I need to change my hypothesis that the 'Phoebe' of 1798 and the 'Lucy' of 1818 et seq are one-and-the-same?
I think we might be in Sherlock Holmes territory, having eliminated all possibilities so what we're left with must be the answer.
-
As we can't find Absalom either maybe there are some records that are not online.
-
Agreed. I'm sure that there are blocks of records missing, but individual records within a block? According to FreeReg, we seem to have access to all the Guildford area parish records, and there is no sign of Lucy MARSH in their records; neither does she appear in FindMyPast or Anc.
If, say, a page from the Register is missing, where, chronologically, would it fit? Lucy consistently reports her age which corresponds with a birth year of 1798, so would it be possible to fit her into the timeline of the the other MARSH children? As I mentioned earlier, there is no other MARSH family in the locality.
You've got to let me have her. Pretty please????
-
There is always the possibility she was not baptised. Maybe she was illegitimate ;D.
I would agree that Stoke and Worplesdon records are the obvious records for Slyfield Green but 'Guildford' could cover a large area.
This looks like the same James Marsh -
In 1851 James Marsh (born Worplesdon) is in Chertsey Street, Guildford as father in law to John Voller - wife Charlotte bn c1805 Worplesdon. Chertsey Street changes into Stoke Road as it goes towards Slyfield Green. The church is in Stoke Road.
Marriage as Valler at Stoke - Charlotte Marsh 19 Oct 1828. So there are other children out there :)
ADDED
Charlotte Marsh
Baptism 27 Jan 1805
Worplesdon, St Mary,
Parents James & Phoebe
-
Other baptism James & Phoebe at Worplesdon - These are transcripts from familysearch
Mary 18 Sep 1803
Milly Marsh 9 Nov 1806
James 24 Jun 1810
George 26 Jan 1812
John Marsh & Mary are also baptising children in Worplesdon around that time
John 2 Jan 1803
Martha January 1804
William Oct 1805
Henry 13 Sep 1807
-
The only Surrey marriage of John MARSH and Mary is in Southwark in 1803, which is too late for Lucy, and there appears to be no space to fit her in.
The additional MARSH children in Worplesdon are interesting - thank you.
I think you're reinforcing my hypothesis! Go-on, let me have Phoebe/Lucy!
-
There was also a baptism at 'Stoke' in 1801 - Mary, parents John & Mary.
I don't think that you should 'Morph' Phoebe into Lucy but perhaps just add her to the rest of the family and see what else you can find. Shame that James did not leave a will.
Worplesdon is close to the county boundary with Hampshire.
-
Does that mean I can assume that Lucy's parents are Phoebe & James? If so, that's fine by me as it enables me to see if I can get any further back.
-
I wouldn't do that. You can't go back on a false premise.
Have tried a DNA test?
Try looking in Hampshire she may have stated the closest large town.
I do people know the name of the town but not the small village I am from.
-
OK. I'll see what Hants has to offer.
-
I've searched Hants 1794-1804 and found only one baptism of Lucy MARSH - 1801 in Farley Chamberlayne, which is over 40 miles from Guildford. I think she can be ruled out on the grounds of age and geography.
-
Does that mean I can assume that Lucy's parents are Phoebe & James? If so, that's fine by me as it enables me to see if I can get any further back.
No. :'(. It was just a suggestion that as we could not locate her baptism it might be worth researching the rest of the family in case something linked her to them.
If she was part of that family it is strange that she is not baptised as they appear to 'do' the other children.
-
There is an Absolem Marsh buried 29 May 1850 age 51 from Stoke next to Guildford. I cannot see him in 1841, the whole family seem to have been missed.
-
James Marsh and John Marsh could be brothers.
Henry Marsh married Ann Wheatley 1 November 1764 at Worpleston
children found so far
*Mary bap 6 January 1765
Henry bap 10 April 1767
*Sarah bap 17 March 1769
*Hannah bap 27 January 1771
James bap 22 August 1773
William buried 1776 infant possible
John bap 24 August 1777
*Ann bap 6 February 1780
*Elizabeth bap 31 August 1783
Martha bap 6 November 1785 buried age 10 1796
With the exception of Martha, Lucy could be the daughter of one of their sisters.
-
Many thanks; the MARSH tree is expanding at a great rate!
If Lucy was the illegitimate child of one of the MARSH sisters, why was she not registered either as such or as the daughter of her grandparents, Ann & HENRY? The MARSH families made frequent use of the Church's Baptismal services so surely would not have omitted a new family member, even though they might have ascribed her to her grandparents rather than her natural mother?
Unfortunately, the sites I use provide only transcripts of the Registers. An examination of the original might clear-up some of the apparent anomalies.
-
Many thanks; the MARSH tree is expanding at a great rate!
If Lucy was the illegitimate child of one of the MARSH sisters, why was she not registered either as such or as the daughter of her grandparents, Ann & HENRY?
Baptism was not compulsory
-
True, and, if that's what happened here, Lucy's parentage will forever remain a mystery.
Where did her name originate, and why was her first daughter named Phoebe?
A Phoebe MARSH died in Q3, 1847 in Guildford; which one is she? The 1841 has James (aged 65) and Phoebe (aged 60) living in Stoke next Guildford.
In 1851, James is a widower, living with his daughter, Charlotte, in Stoke next Guildford, which leads me to believe that the Phoebe who died in 1847 was his wife, not his daughter.
-
If you use the GRO index to look up the death it gives the age as 70
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
MARSH, PHOEBE 70
GRO Reference: 1847 Sept Quarter in GUILDFORD UNION Volume 04 Page 131
-
True, and, if that's what happened here, Lucy's parentage will forever remain a mystery.
Where did her name originate, and why was her first daughter named Phoebe?
As I mentioned in reply 3 The Downer family did not seem to follow any naming pattern rules
-
Rosie
Thanks. That confirms that this death is that of James's wife.
I am still unable to find either the death or marriage of their daughter, Phoebe.
-
The trouble is that not all parish records are online and Phoebe could have moved anywhere. We cannot just assume that because we cannot locate a burial or marriage that she has morphed into Lucy as much as we would like to. :'(
I suspect it is a case of just chipping away at it, Sorry.
You are not alone. I have a female grandparent born around the same time as Lucy and I cannot locate a baptism for her. Like Lucy she married before 1837 but I am possibly lucky as there is a flourishing signature of a possible father (he was a schoolmaster). I have set up a separate tree for this possible father and his children / wife etc and she would fit nicely in a gap but all of the others were baptised. I have been firmly stuck with her since the mid 1990's ::)
-
Lucy DOWNER (nee MARSH) baptized her first daughter Phoebe, in 1823.
In 1823, there were approximately 1 500 000 baptisms in England, of which just under half were of girls, say 700 000. Of these, about 1500 were named Phoebe, so the chance of a girl being randomly named Phoebe were some 470:1. Statistically, these odds are highly significant, and imply that there must have been a very strong reason for choosing that name. In all probability, therefore, there must have been a very strong familial connection between Lucy and an elder Phoebe, probably Lucy's mother.
The only elder Phoebe we have come across is the wife of James. If James & Phoebe are Lucy's parents, why was she not baptized as such, and how can another daughter, allegedly born in 1798, be fitted into the family?
-
If you mean lot wont let me merge Phoebe and Lucy into one, I thought I'd be greedy and have 'em both anyway, viz:-
James MARSH (bachelor) married Phoebe SLAUGHTER (spinster) on 19 Feb 1798 at Stoke next Guildford.
First witness: Lucy SLAUGHTER
Phoebe bap 13 Jul 1777 to James & Ann SLAUGHTER in Worplesdon
No sign of Lucy as yet.
-
Great! Now I have 2 untraceable Lucys !
The only baptism of a Lucy SLAUGHTER I can find in England is 17.07.1767 in St Sepulchre (London), to Timothy & Mary, so obviously not Phoebe's sister and, anyway, she married in 1792, so could not be the witness to Phoebe's marriage in 1798 even if she were a cousin.
I have been unable to find a marriage between Lucy ???? and a groom named SLAUGHTER anywhere in England. Also, Phoebe appears to have had only one brother, James, who died in infancy.