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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Byles1978 on Sunday 04 April 21 23:13 BST (UK)
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Hello, I am intrigued by this post as I am trying to figure out who my Great Grandmothers Family were. Her name was Isabella Smith born circa 1873/1874 in Edinburgh according to the info I have. By all accounts she also had a younger brother named Charles Smith who used to write to Isabella and her daughter (my Grandmother) also Isabella in Pretoria while he was on the front fighting the war. I believe Charles did marry as I have my Grandmother's address book but he may have died shortly after the war. Now this is why this post caught my eye, my Grandmother used to write to a Mrs Chas Smith, Briarlea, Barry nr Carnoustie, Angus. Another address was c/o Mrs H Short, 55 Struan Street, Perth , c/o Mrs Goodsin, Methilhill Farm House, Methilhill and then Cameron Bridge Hospital, Ward 3, Windygates, Fife. As I say I know nothing about the Smith's nor who Isabella and Charles parents were and I would love to know. I also don't know the name of Mrs Chas Smith as Chas is obviously Charles. My assumption is that she died before 1978 before my Grandmother died but after 1965 when she gifted my parents a table cloth for their wedding. The address in Briarlea was mentioned in this thread in 2017 and I am hoping that the authors read this and get back to me please. Many thanks
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The indexes at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk do not have any records of anyone named Goodsin after 1905. Are you sure it's Goodsin?
According to the Valuation Rolls, the proprietor and occupier of Briarlea, Station Road, parish of Barry, from about 1915 to 1940 was John Watson Petrie. He died in Carnoustie in 1942, aged 77, so he is probably the one born in Dundee in 1865 and married to Margaret Ann White in 1898. I wondered if perhaps Mrs Chas was his daughter, but there is only one marriage of a Charles Smith to a Petrie: Margaret Emslie Petrie, born Aberdeen 1927, married 1949, died 1999 in Aberdeen, mother's maiden surname also Smith.
When, where and whom did your great-grandmother marry? Or, at least, what was your great-grandfather's name?
And when you say 'the war', which war? South African War, First World War, Second World War?
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Hello, I am intrigued by this post as I am trying to figure out who my Great Grandmothers Family were. Her name was Isabella Smith born circa 1873/1874 in Edinburgh according to the info I have. By all accounts she also had a younger brother named Charles Smith who used to write to Isabella and her daughter (my Grandmother) also Isabella in Pretoria while he was on the front fighting the war. I believe Charles did marry as I have my Grandmother's address book but he may have died shortly after the war. Now this is why this post caught my eye, my Grandmother used to write to a Mrs Chas Smith, Briarlea, Barry nr Carnoustie, Angus. Another address was c/o Mrs H Short, 55 Struan Street, Perth , c/o Mrs Goodsin, Methilhill Farm House, Methilhill and then Cameron Bridge Hospital, Ward 3, Windygates, Fife. As I say I know nothing about the Smith's nor who Isabella and Charles parents were and I would love to know. I also don't know the name of Mrs Chas Smith as Chas is obviously Charles. My assumption is that she died before 1978 before my Grandmother died but after 1965 when she gifted my parents a table cloth for their wedding. The address in Briarlea was mentioned in this thread in 2017 and I am hoping that the authors read this and get back to me please. Many thanks
Hello, and welcome to Rootschat.
Unfortunately, I don't believe your query connects to my family tree. The family living at Briarlea, Barry, in the 1891 and 1901 census were William Nicoll (Blacksmith) and my 3x great-aunt Isabella Smith Gibson. Her middle name Smith was her maternal grandmother's surname.
They did have a daughter named Isabella Gibson Nicoll, born in 1873 in Dundee, but she died unmarried in August 1903 at Briarlea of a mitral valve heart condition. Her mother, Isabella Smith Gibson, also died in 1903. William Nicoll died in June 1904 at Briarlea.
As Forfarian mentioned, in 1905, John Watson Petrie lived at Briarlea. In July 1904, not long after William Nicoll died, it was put up for sale. So the house did not remain in the Nicoll family. There was an article in The Dundee Courier on the 5th July 1904 advertising it for sale.
Sorry I could not be of any more help. Good luck with your searches.
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Hi, thanks for getting back to me, so my great grandmother Isabella Smith married John James Leggett in Pretoria, South Africa on the 9th January 1905. Isabella died in South Africa in Umtata on the 10th October 1944. Unfortunately I cannot find any immigration records for her going to South Africa. I have done the DNA test along with my Sister, cousins and Mum and my sister, myself and my cousin's come out at 15 percent average. We have ruled out my Mum's Family as none of them have the DNA and nor do the Leggett's so we think it must come from the Smith side. Reading my grandmother's handwriting it looks like Goodsin or Goodsir. Mr H Short I have found it Mr James H Short. The postcards were written during the first world war.
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My Mum has just come to me with the following little snippet. Hopefully you can advise?
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Hi Byles1978
There is this possible 1881 census entry as a maybe:
Charles Smith 45 stone mason b. Abbey, Haddington
Jeanie F Smith 32
Thos Smith 17
Isabella Smith 8
Wilhemina Smith 6
Charles Smith 4
Robt Smith 2
Address: 13 Home St No , Edinburgh
Jeanie Fraser Blackie and Charles Smith were married in Edinburgh on 7 Jun 1867.
Added: Not the right family. This Isabella married to a Fowler I think. Her burial details www.findagrave.com/memorial/174804620/isabella-hope-fowler
Will have another look...
Monica
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My Mum has just come to me with the following little snippet. Hopefully you can advise?
It would probably be more fruitful for you to create a new thread in relation to your query. That way people will see the relevant names and dates on the title, as there isn't a connection to my Gibsons/Stronners of St Vigeans.
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I will add here and hopefully the mods will transfer posts to a new thread.
You have on the paper notes: Mrs C Smith, 2 Tayside Terrace, E. Newport Dundee.
East Newport is not in Dundee. Newport is located in the north of Fife but not far (opposite and across the River Tay) from Dundee.
Searching the Valuation Rolls on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk which go up to 1940 at present online, there is in 1940:
Charles SMITH
Tenant
HOUSE AND GARDEN 2 TAY TERRACE EAST NEWPORT
FORGAN
I wonder how and if he connects to the family you are researching. See here for further info
www.newportarchive.co.uk/property.php?ID=115700 As you can see, Charles Smith is listed up to 1956. He died in 1957 at the age of 75. His wife Mary is listed thereafter.
Do you have any approx dates when your grandmother was writing to Mrs C Charles at 2 Tay Terrace?
Monica
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Below is a clip from the 1957 death of the Charles Smith we have been looking at above. His wife was Mary Carmichael. From this registration, his birth looks to be illegitimate, mother Euphemia Smith, a dressmaker. Mary Small Carmichael and Charles Smith married in Forgan in 1933.
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Why do you think that your Isabella was born in Edinburgh?
There is this birth:
Isabella Smith, mother Euphemia Smith. Born 11 Dec 1872 in Nairn, Nairnshire. Image of birth reg available to view on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk From the familysearch birth index www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQM1-5JD
I think this is Euphemia and daughter Isabella on the 1881 Census:
Euphemia Smith 24 dressmaker b. Ardersier, Inverness-Shire
Isabella Smith 8 Daughter b. Nairn
Address: 4 Church Street, Nairn
And then on to 1891:
Euphemia Smith 35 Dressmaker
Isabella Smith 17 Daughter, Assistant Dressmaker
Charles Smith 8 Son b. Nairn
Address: 16 Douglas Street, Nairn
1901:
Euphemia Smith 44 Dressmaker
Charles Smith 18 Son Booksellers Assistant
Address: 2a Water Lane, Nairn
Two possible entries for Isabella in 1901. First, lodging in Inverness at a McLeod household at 8 Shuttle Lane. No occupation showing for her. And the other entry could have her working in England www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSX1-FN8
So it would be from here that she would have left not too long after for SA before her wedding in 1905?
Monica
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... My assumption is that she died before 1978 before my Grandmother died but after 1965 when she gifted my parents a table cloth for their wedding.
Mary Small Carmichael/Smith died in 1970 at the age of 75 at Newport on Tay, Fife. She was born in 1895 in St Clements, Dundee. You can view the image for her death reg on SP (Scotlands People).
Monica
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I think this may be Mary with her family in 1901:
John Carmichael 40 Mill & Factory Blacksmith b. Strathmiglo, fifeshire
Margaret Carmichael 41b. Inverarity, Forfarshire
Mary Carmichael 5 b. Dundee
Jane Carmichael 3 b. Dundee
Margaret Carmichael 1 b. Dundee
Address: 157 Strathmartine Rd Cluny Place, St Clement/Dundee
You can check the marriage or death cert to confirm her parents' names as this information is included on these registrations.
Monica
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Hi Monica, if it were possible I would climb through this mobile phone and give you a massive hug and a good old tango. You know, I was going on the Euphemia line a few years ago but a cousin thought it may be wrong as we had a paper with Isabella's details on it saying she was born in Edinburgh written on by my Aunt, so I relented but I was on the right track. My Mum used to write Christmas cards to Mary Smith at 2 Tay Terrace on behalf of my Dad from when they were married but Mum cannot remember when it ended saying it was before I was born in 1978. Monica, I am bouncing on my sofa. You are a legend and a star. The next question I have is how would I find out who Isabella's Dad was and possibly Charles Dad? A few years ago I saw on a birth certificate or something for her it was James Ritchie I think his name was. If I remember correctly he took responsibility through the court.
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I was curious about the company address you have noted under Mrs C Charles.
Harley & Cox is still ongoing I think. It is a stationers and printers. I found this for its history https://scottishprintarchive.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Harley-and-Cox1.pdf
Numerous references to Charles Smith. The Charles Smith we have looked at was a master printer so likely this was where he worked. Got on a boat and would go to work in Dundee!
Monica
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...The next question I have is how would I find out who Isabella's Dad was and possibly Charles Dad? A few years ago I saw on a birth certificate or something for her it was James Ritchie I think his name was. If I remember correctly he took responsibility through the court.
I wonder where this was that you saw the name of James Ritchie. Isabella's birth cert looks to just have mother's name. Father needs to attend the Registrar to register birth with mother in order for his name to be used.
I have checked here www.oldscottish.com/sheriff-court-paternity-decrees-shepherd-stevenson.html but nothing shows under Euphemia Smith's name.
Monica
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This looks like Euphemia with her family in 1861. Everyone showing as born in b. Ardersier, Invernessshire :
John Smith 42 shoemaker
Caroline Smith 43
May Smith 10
Euphemia Smith 6 b. Ardersier, invernessshire
Thomas Smith 2
Address: 27 High St, Campbeltown, Ardersier Inverness
By 1871 I think her mother may have died and family have moved to Nairn:
John Smith 51 Boot shoemaker
Euphemia Smith 15 servant
Thomas Smith 12
Address: Tradespark, Nairn Burgh
And 1881 we have her following the birth of Isabella and living with her in Nairn.
Monica
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Euphemia's mother Caroline had the maiden name of Grant. Some birth details here:
Euphemia in 1854 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBMP-CZZ
Thomas in 1859 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYB1-HGZ
This looks to be Caroline's death entry:
Caroline SMITH
Age 40
Mother's maiden name GRANT
1867
123/ 58
Nairn
Monica
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My last one for tonight! Something called work gets in the way...boo
This is the most obvious death for Euphemia:
Euphemia SMITH
Age 59
1916
123/ 4
Nairn
Monica :)
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Thank you Monica, this is amazing stuff. I will get onto this line this weekend.
Goodnight.
Quentin
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Hi Quentin
Just adding some more details from the tabs I still had open from yesterday.
Marriage notice for Euphemia Smith's parents shows on page 8 here www.morayandnairnfhs.co.uk/pdfs/news201802.pdf
29 Dec 1849 -At Campbelltown, on the 21stinst., Mr John Smith, Shoemaker to Caroline Grant, daughter of Mr Thomas Grant, Tailor there.
Good to have their marriage details from this notice as I can't easily see an entry for it in the Old Parish Registers. Only the Banns show on SP on 14 Dec 1849.
Thomas Grant with family must be this one from 1851 www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14cc81f4040b9d6ed04d8d/may-grant-1851-inverness-shire-ardersier-1791-?locale=en
Caroline with husband John, also in 1851 www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14cc80f4040b9d6ed04ce7/caroline-smith-1851-inverness-shire-ardersier-1818-?locale=en
I think mum May is likely a May Munro, looking at this entry here www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBMP-Z4C
Monica
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Quentin, is it you or another family member who has a family tree for Isabella Smith on A/try? If you, have a look at this Grant tree here www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/162893020/person/162122999420/facts
The 1861 and 1871 census are showing some Smith grandchildren living with grandmother May Grant. Caroline and John's children...or did a sister also marry a Smith?
Monica
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"Another address was c/o Mrs H Short, 55 Struan Street, Perth"
This would be Struan Road, Letham, Perth.
It faces onto Our Lady's R.C. School (built 1960s), the houses are the original built & still there today.
The name 'Goodsin' I think would be Goodsir which is a name I knew of, a married woman I worked with & possibly from the Methilhill/Leven area.
Annie