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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: Vixen999 on Wednesday 07 April 21 21:57 BST (UK)

Title: Frank French
Post by: Vixen999 on Wednesday 07 April 21 21:57 BST (UK)
Hi everyone, Im a little stuck with a friends family tree with two people.  Any help anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Frank French was born Oct 1858, Lewes, sussex.  It appears I can only find information of his potential mother  Ann French.  I do know from information from the friend, he was born brighton/lewes but thats as much as she knew.  His mmn is not on his birth registration.  Frank married a Frances Emily Turner who is another enigma Im struggling to work out.  Frank had 9 children that I can find, one of whom is Winifred Emily French who is the great grandmother of the person Im doing the tree for.  Her mothers mmn is turner.  Frank French does not have a middle name on his birth record.  However a Frances Emily Turner married a frank francis french 1906, eastbourne.  I do know many of the relatives around this time of the person Im doing the tree for came from Eastbourne, or surrounding towns.  I cant find a birth record of a frank francis french.  However, I did find two birth records for a Frederick French, one born eastbourne 1856, one born brighton 1857.  On the 1911 census, frank claims to have been born Brighton but his birth year changes from 1858 to 1963. Lewes is close to brighton.  But there is also a Frederick French born brighton. 

Im slightly confused with the marriage record being for a Frank Francis French to a Francis Emily Turner and now am wondering if Ann was franks mother.  If she was, Ann French was born to a James French and Margaret Vaughan.  And again struggling for information on those parents.

Francis Emily Turner is also confusing me.  She claims on the 1911 census to be from Selmeston, Sussex born 1871/2 and is down as Emily.    On the 1911 census Winifred Emily French is listed.  So I know Frank and Francis Emily are the correct parents for winifred.  There is an 1891 census which has a Francis Turner born selmeston.  I cant find a birth record.  Also the only birth record I can find for a francis emily turner, doesnt come from Selmeston but from Dorset.    Any help working emily out would be appreciated including potential parents or siblings please.

Thanks all, hope this hasnt confused you too much
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 07 April 21 22:24 BST (UK)
Quote
Frank married a Frances Emily Turner

Does he name a father on the marriage? 
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Vixen999 on Wednesday 07 April 21 22:27 BST (UK)
No bans found, only a marriage registration. 

Quote
Frank married a Frances Emily Turner

Does he name a father on the marriage?
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 07 April 21 22:30 BST (UK)
1861 has

Ann French 42 pauper born Lewes
Frank French 3 pauper born Lewes

Frank born 14 Oct 1858

Quote
However a Frances Emily Turner married a frank francis french 1906, eastbourne.

If you look at the 1911 census for Frank father of Winifred Emily it gives the number of years married.
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 07 April 21 22:40 BST (UK)
I wonder if the oldest daughter Louisa May is

Louisa May Turner born Jun 1899 Eastbourne

Have you got the 1901 census for Frank or Emily?  Not finding Louisa at present.
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Vixen999 on Wednesday 07 April 21 22:41 BST (UK)

I dont know for sure if Ann is his mother.  There are two birth entries for eastbourne and brighton under the name of Frederick French and Im wondering if any of these records could be frank. Also the marriage record lists a frank francis french but there is no birth registration under this name that I can find.   

1861 has

Ann French 42 pauper born Lewes
Frank French 3 pauper born Lewes

Frank born 14 Oct 1858

Quote
However a Frances Emily Turner married a frank francis french 1906, eastbourne.

If you look at the 1911 census for Frank father of Winifred Emily it gives the number of years married.
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Vixen999 on Wednesday 07 April 21 22:43 BST (UK)
Says they are married 12yrs which doesnt fit with the marriage registration of 1906 so thats another mystery

1861 has

Ann French 42 pauper born Lewes
Frank French 3 pauper born Lewes

Frank born 14 Oct 1858

Quote
However a Frances Emily Turner married a frank francis french 1906, eastbourne.

If you look at the 1911 census for Frank father of Winifred Emily it gives the number of years married.
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Vixen999 on Wednesday 07 April 21 22:47 BST (UK)
I found all the other childrens birth registrations apart from Louisa's but there is this entry...am wondering if she changed her name

Name Gladys May French
Registration Year 1898 Registration QuarterOct-Nov-Dec
Registration district Eastbourne
Inferred County Sussex Volume 2b Page70

I wonder if the oldest daughter Louisa May is

Louisa May Turner born Jun 1899 Eastbourne

Have you got the 1901 census for Frank or Emily?  Not finding Louisa at present.
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Vixen999 on Wednesday 07 April 21 22:48 BST (UK)
No only found 1911

I found all the other childrens birth registrations apart from Louisa's but there is this entry...am wondering if she changed her name

Name Gladys May French
Registration Year 1898 Registration QuarterOct-Nov-Dec
Registration district Eastbourne
Inferred County Sussex Volume 2b Page70

I wonder if the oldest daughter Louisa May is

Louisa May Turner born Jun 1899 Eastbourne

Have you got the 1901 census for Frank or Emily?  Not finding Louisa at present.
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 07 April 21 22:50 BST (UK)
They could have already had some children before getting married and changed the number of years married to fit (although it doesn't quite fit the oldest child)

Gladys May has mothers name Freeman

I do think the Turner registration is more likely but where was she in 1901  :-\
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 07 April 21 22:58 BST (UK)
Winifred should be on 1901 as well but can't find her either  :-\
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Comberton on Wednesday 07 April 21 23:02 BST (UK)
Birth
Frank French
Dec 1858
Lewes
mmn French (on FindMyPast but not on GRO)

Baptism
Frank French
2nd January 1859
Lewes
mother Ann French
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Vixen999 on Wednesday 07 April 21 23:05 BST (UK)
As winifred was registered in Eastbourne, I would have assumed they could be found on the 1901 census.  These are some of the birth registrations which I know are correct. 

FRENCH, DOROTHY  AMY ETHEL    TURNER 
GRO Reference: 1906  D Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 59

FRENCH, FLORENCE  ROSA ELLEN    TURNER 
GRO Reference: 1904  D Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 59

FRENCH, WINIFRED  EMILY     TURNER 
GRO Reference: 1900  D Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 55

FRENCH, FRANK  ARTHUR HENRY    TURNER 
GRO Reference: 1902  M Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 70

Doris Alice French
Registration Year 1909
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district Eastbourne
Inferred CountySussex Volume 2b Page68

FRENCH, LILIAN  GLADYS IVY    TURNER 
GRO Reference: 1908  J Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 71

Beatrice I P French
Mother's Maiden Name Turner
Registration Year 1915
Registration QuarterJan-Feb-Mar
Registration district Eastbourne
Inferred County Sussex Volume 2b Page125

William R T French
Registration DateOct 1917
Registration QuarterOct-Nov-Dec
Registration districtEastbourne
Inferred County East Sussex
Mother's Maiden Name Turner Volume Number 2b Page number105

They could have already had some children before getting married and changed the number of years married to fit (although it doesn't quite fit the oldest child)

Gladys May has mothers name Freeman

I do think the Turner registration is more likely but where was she in 1901  :-\
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Vixen999 on Wednesday 07 April 21 23:10 BST (UK)
Thanks for this, this is what I had initially but because of Francis Emily Turner marrying a Frank Francis French, its thrown me and also the lack of records for both these people. I cant find any census's apart from 1911 for emily and frank.  The marriage record states 1906 they were married but the children were born some of them before then.  Also the 1911 census states they were married 12yrs but only married for 6 if married in 1906

Birth
Frank French
Dec 1858
Lewes
mmn French (on FindMyPast but not on GRO)

Baptism
Frank French
2nd January 1859
Lewes
mother Ann French
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Vixen999 on Wednesday 07 April 21 23:11 BST (UK)
Interestingly the children were born before they were married if the marriage registration for
Frank Francis French and Frances Emily Turner is correct. 

As winifred was registered in Eastbourne, I would have assumed they could be found on the 1901 census.  These are some of the birth registrations which I know are correct. 

FRENCH, DOROTHY  AMY ETHEL    TURNER 
GRO Reference: 1906  D Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 59

FRENCH, FLORENCE  ROSA ELLEN    TURNER 
GRO Reference: 1904  D Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 59

FRENCH, WINIFRED  EMILY     TURNER 
GRO Reference: 1900  D Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 55

FRENCH, FRANK  ARTHUR HENRY    TURNER 
GRO Reference: 1902  M Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 70

FRENCH, DOROTHY  AMY ETHEL    TURNER 
GRO Reference: 1906  D Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 59

FRENCH, LILIAN  GLADYS IVY    TURNER 
GRO Reference: 1908  J Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 71



They could have already had some children before getting married and changed the number of years married to fit (although it doesn't quite fit the oldest child)

Gladys May has mothers name Freeman

I do think the Turner registration is more likely but where was she in 1901  :-\
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 08 April 21 00:09 BST (UK)
Not having much luck finding them on 1901 either ???

1922 Immigration Louie May French 23 nearest relative Aunt Mrs Turner, Eastbourne
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JNJX-HZ7

Miss Louise May French
Residence Place:   1208 Watchung Ave Nue , This City
Marriage Date:   Abt 1924
Father:   Frank French
Mother:   French
Spouse:   William Gallo (Mair)
U.S., Newspapers.com Marriage Index, 1800s-1999

Louise M Mair Age:   84
Death Date:   29 Aug 1982
Death Place:   Plainfield, Union, New Jersey, USA

William G. Mair Age:   72
Residence Place:   Scotch Plains
Death Date:   1969
Death Place:   1141 Raritan Road
Burial Place:   Plainfield
Obituary Date:   6 Nov 1969
Obituary Place:   Bridgewater, New Jersey, United States of America
Spouse:   Louise French Mair
U.S., Newspapers.com Obituary Index, 1800s-current

US census Louise Mair
1930 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4N4-XC4 - cousin Reginald Turner
1940 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K4YD-43D

1931 Immigration Louise May Mair
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24NZ-7DV

Edit to add

Louise’s cousin Reginald Turner with wife Margery and their children on 1940 US census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K4YW-7L5

Reginald Turner’s death 1994, born 21 April 1904
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K4YW-7L5

Possible birth entry / parents marriage entry

Reginald TURNER  mmn HENTY 
1904  J Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 72

Dec 1896   Eastbourne    2b   148   
Names on same page
Henty    Kate       
Turner    William       

1901 census Piece:   884 Folio:   18 Page Number:   27
William Turner   36 Selmeston, Sussex, bricklayer
Kate Turner   28
Alice R Turner   4 (middle name Rosa mmn Henly)
Harry Turner   2 (mmn Henty)

Could this be William with sister Fanny Turner

1881 Piece:   1072 Folio:   57 Page Number:   7
Henry Turner   60
Phebe Turner   66
William Turner   15 Selmeston, Sussex
Jane Turner   13
Fanny Turner   6 Selmeston, Sussex

Added

William TURNER mmn GUY
1865  J Quarter in LEWES  Volume 02B  Page 162   

Fanny TURNER mmn   GUY 
1873  J Quarter in LEWES  Volume 02B  Page 161

Fanny Turner
Christening 22 Jun 1873 Selmeston, Sussex
Father:   Henry Turner Mother:   Phoebe

William & Kate Turner’s address 19 Bexhill Rd Eastbourne
on Louise May French’s 1922 immigration record nearest relative 
Aunt Mrs Turner address 19 Bushill Road Eastbourne

















Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Annette7 on Thursday 08 April 21 04:18 BST (UK)
Frank married as Frank Francis French but his death reg'd as Francis Frank French - from only census you've found him on (1911) his birthplace given as Brighton and  aged at death 69 in Mar.qtr.1927 indicates a birth in 1857/8.

I do not believe that he is the Frank born Lewes 1858, illeg. son of Ann.

I believe 'your' man is the Francis French bp.12/7/1857 Brighton, son of Henry and Mary (birth regn. gives mmn as Weller).    On 1861 census he is listed as Francis, in 1871 with married sister 'Bett' (birth reg'd as Betsy, 1861 census as Elizabeth and married as Bet) and her husband Richard Goldsmith (married 1870) in Eastbourne as Frank and both census give birthplace as Brighton as in 1911. 

Henry French died in 1864 Brighton and by 1871 his widow Mary is a housekeeper to a Benjamin Goldsmith in Eastbourne.   Their youngest child - Henry T. bc.1860 - on 1861 census would appear to be an illeg. grandson rather than son (born as Thomas Henry Dec.1859).   In 1871 is with his now married mother 'Nancy' and her husband James Packham (married Jun.1861 Brighton, her full name being Ann Elizabeth French).   By 1881 this young man is back to being Henry again and is in Eastbourne with a Harry Goldsmith.

Be he Francis or Frank I cannot find him in 1881, 1891 or 1901.  Certainly, 1861 and 1871 agree with 1911 that he was born in Brighton (not Lewes).

Frank's wife married as Frances Emily Turner and in 1911, as you already know, she is 'Emily' bc.1872 Selmeston, Sussex.  There were only 2 Turner families in Selmeston at the relevant time and I believe that she was reg'd as Fanny Turner in Jun.1873 Lewes, mmn Guy.  Parents being Henry Turner and Phebe Guy married Dec.1862 Lewes.  Phebe shown 66 in 1881 which is an error - think it was supposed to be 46 - various census and death entry (1890) suggest born mid 1830's in Chiddingly.

However, whilst I believe the above is correct you really need to get details of the 1906 marriage of Frank to confirm their respective fathers names.

Annette
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 08 April 21 08:06 BST (UK)

Louise M Mair Age:   84
Death 29 Aug 1982
Death Place:   Plainfield, Union, New Jersey, USA


Death of Louise Mair 1982 New Jersey gives her dob 26th February 1898
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JRQY-8WR

Not found her birth entry March qtr. 1898

same as millipede posted this is the only entry Eastbourne Louisa May but not right surname/qtr or year  :-\
mother's maiden name left blank

TURNER, LOUISA  MAY     - 
1899  J Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 62

1931 Naturalization May Louise Mair
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6C1P-N8KS
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 08 April 21 08:53 BST (UK)

I found all the other childrens birth registrations apart from Louisa's but there is this entry...am wondering if she changed her name

Name Gladys May French
Registration Year 1898 Registration QuarterOct-Nov-Dec
Registration district Eastbourne
Inferred County Sussex Volume 2b Page70

I wonder if the oldest daughter Louisa May is

Louisa May Turner born Jun 1899 Eastbourne

Have you got the 1901 census for Frank or Emily?  Not finding Louisa at present.

I don't think the birth entry for Gladys May French is your Louisa May French
I believe she belongs to this family and Gladys May can be found with her family on  1911c

1901 c Piece:   882 Folio:   56 Page Number:   10
Luther French   44
Louisa E French   36
Sydney French   18
Emily A French   7
Ella D French   5
Gladdis M French   2
Benjamin P French   11
Uphert French   11
Gwendoline L French   13 (I think perhaps her age should be 13 mths not 13)

FRENCH, ELLA  DAISY     mmn FREEMAN 
GRO Reference: 1896  M Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 78

FRENCH, GLADYS  MAY  mmn   FREEMAN 
GRO Reference: 1898  D Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 70

FRENCH, GWENDOLEN  LOUISE  mmn    FREEMAN 
GRO Reference: 1900  M Quarter in EASTBOURNE  Volume 02B  Page 79
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 08 April 21 11:13 BST (UK)
Louisa May French age 23, domestic
Port of Departure:   New York
Arrival 12 Jun 1922
Port of Arrival:   Southampton
Ship Name:   Mauretania
Proposed address in UK 19 Bexhill Road, Eastbourne

Reginald TURNER age 21
address 19 Bexhill Road Eastbourne
Departure Date:   10 Feb 1926
Port of Departure:   Southampton, England
Destination Port:   New York, USA
Ship Name:   Aquitania

This address links Louise May FRENCH to William TURNER & Kate (nee HENTY) as previously mentioned the Turner's are living at that address and they have a son named Reginald TURNER born c1904

Louisa had a daughter named Winifred Emily Mair

Miss Winifred Emily MAIR
Residence Place:   425 Summit Ave. , Westfield
Employer:   Plainf Ield-Union Water Company
School:   Scotch Plains High School
Marriage    16 Apr 1955
Marriage Place:   Westfield, New Jersey, USA
Father:    William G. Mair Mother:    Mair
Spouse:   G T Seemon

Winifred E Seemon Age:   74
Birth 21 Jun 1933 Plainfield, New Jersey, USA
Death 13 Mar 2008 New Jersey, USA

and a daughter Lillian

Louise MAIR 32 & Lillian MAIR 2
last address in UK 19 Bexhill Road Eastbourne
Departure 30 May 1931 Southampton
Destination Port:   New York, USA
Ship Name:   Mauretania

Miss Lillian MAIR
School:   Scotch Plains High School
Marriage 24 Dec 1946 Cranford, New Jersey, USA
Father:   William Mair Mother:    Mair
Spouse:    J E Gohring

Lillian A. Gohring Birth 21 Jul 1928
Last Residence:   07076, Scotch Plains, Union, New Jersey
Death 26 Jan 2010
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/79396615/lillian-a.-gohring
Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Ladyhawk on Thursday 08 April 21 12:37 BST (UK)
This FRENCH family are proving very elusive in 1901  ??? I've tried as many variations as I could think of but have still drawn a blank  ???

Frank Francis French born c1858 Brighton Sussex
died 1927 Eastbourne

Fanny Emily French  born c 1872 Selmston Sussex
 died ?

Louisa May French?  born c 1898 Eastbourne
died 1982 US married surname (MAIR) born 26 Feb 1898

Winifred Emily French (mmn Turner) born c 1900 Eastbourne
died 1981 Eastbourne married surname (SPOONER) born 15 Aug 1900

Are either of these Fanny’s death entry? Or did she remarry?

Mar 1919   Eastbourne   2b 134            
Fanny French   age 49      
   
Mar 1939   Eastbourne   2b 148            
Fanny French   age 64

The only reason I can think of as to why Frank F French would not be on the 1901 census is perhaps he was serving in the Army  :-\ Or were the family abroad at the time of 1901 census but their son Frank Jnr. was born 1902 Eastbourne, perhaps they have just been missed or their surname very badly transcribed  ???

As previously mentioned the marriage certificate would be helpful in confirming father's names, occupation etc....obtaining Winifred (1900) or Frank (1902) birth certificates would give you their fathers occupation perhaps different from 1911c and their address in Eastbourne either side of 1901 census then you could check Electoral Register or try searching 1901c using that address.


Title: Re: Frank French
Post by: Vixen999 on Friday 09 April 21 11:32 BST (UK)
Winifred did marry a Spooner and died in Eastbourne.  And Louisa did marry a Mair and moved to the States.

This FRENCH family are proving very elusive in 1901  ??? I've tried as many variations as I could think of but have still drawn a blank  ???

Frank Francis French born c1858 Brighton Sussex
died 1927 Eastbourne

Fanny Emily French  born c 1872 Selmston Sussex
 died ?

Louisa May French?  born c 1898 Eastbourne
died 1982 US married surname (MAIR) born 26 Feb 1898

Winifred Emily French (mmn Turner) born c 1900 Eastbourne
died 1981 Eastbourne married surname (SPOONER) born 15 Aug 1900

Are either of these Fanny’s death entry? Or did she remarry?

Mar 1919   Eastbourne   2b 134            
Fanny French   age 49      
   
Mar 1939   Eastbourne   2b 148            
Fanny French   age 64

The only reason I can think of as to why Frank F French would not be on the 1901 census is perhaps he was serving in the Army  :-\ Or were the family abroad at the time of 1901 census but their son Frank Jnr. was born 1902 Eastbourne, perhaps they have just been missed or their surname very badly transcribed  ???

As previously mentioned the marriage certificate would be helpful in confirming father's names, occupation etc....obtaining Winifred (1900) or Frank (1902) birth certificates would give you their fathers occupation perhaps different from 1911c and their address in Eastbourne either side of 1901 census then you could check Electoral Register or try searching 1901c using that address.