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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: MiniFlick on Thursday 08 April 21 23:29 BST (UK)

Title: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: MiniFlick on Thursday 08 April 21 23:29 BST (UK)
Hi there!

I'm  new to all this but trying to trace a very illusive person/ family line!

I'm looking for help getting further back in the Morris family - and I'm not doing very well! I'm 2 generations back and would love any help!

At the moment I have only this information:

Charles Morris born 17th June 1909 in Richmond (?)

Married Lillian Watson (B:14 Mar 1912 Brentford, Middlesex, D:Sep 1992 Ealing, Middlesex, England)
on the 11th July 1931 in Brentford, Middlesex (See marriage cert attached)
 (http://<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/TXCK65C" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/TXCK65C"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>)

Address is listed as 3 Mersey Street, Nottinghill (Street no longer exists, but there are loads of Morris' listed on that street)

Father is listed as Charles Morris (helpful!) Florist.

They had one child: Jack Charles Morris (B:30 Nov 1931 London, England, D:22 Sep 2009)

The only other info i've got on him is that he was known as 'Wag' Morris - and we were told his name was Charles Jack Morris but I cant find any info to back this up. He was possibly in an armed force as I have a pic of him in uniform. He went on the QE2 (not helpful but just adding in some history!)

He was a bit of a 'gangster' - he went to prison - for smuggling I think -  and was a featured story in a book written by a police chief called 'They thought they got away with it!' for being caught smuggling.

He could possibly have had sisters called Rose and Irene (although these could be sisters in law)

He and Lil lived in Teddington in their later years.



I cant seem to find anything on him, or his father/mother/further back which is what I'm really looking for as I don't know anything about it and there is nobody left to ask.
Thankyou so so much (in advance!)

Flick  :-* x


Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 08 April 21 23:39 BST (UK)
In 1939 he is in prison in Chelmsford
Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: mckha489 on Friday 09 April 21 03:14 BST (UK)
In 1935 there is a Charles Morris, a street paviour. (=bricklayer??). In court for the robbery of a garage in Notting Hill.
Charles’ address is The Grove, Hammersmith. He is 29 so age is a bit out. They were discharged.

11 March 1938 Charles Morris a bricklayer of Churchfield Road, Acton acquitted of breaking and entering. Detective opposed bail as Morris had been on the run “since October last”

09 December 1938 - Acton Gazette
This is when he was sent to prison. (18 mths) For Receiving furs.  He is in league with people from The Grove Hammersmith. So suspect the first one I posted is him.
Address is 58 Beaumont road, Acton Green. Occ this time “wall pointer”. That’s a bricklaying job too.
He had previous conviction.
Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: mckha489 on Friday 09 April 21 06:37 BST (UK)
I am wondering about the occupation of his father. (And his name for that matter)
There are several Morrises in 1911 who are stonemasons, but none who are Florists.   I suppose, if he got too old/injured to carry bricks he could have taken selling flowers post 1911?
Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: MiniFlick on Friday 09 April 21 10:26 BST (UK)
Amazing! Thanks so much! Its so interesting to find a bit more context to his 'loveable gangster' persona!

How do I go about locating his father & mother?  or any of his family... I cant find anything on his birth...

tia
Flick xx
Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: mckha489 on Friday 09 April 21 11:37 BST (UK)
By hoping like anything that Irene and Rose really are his sisters

Use https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl. To try and narrow down some possibilities.

Then use  https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp#Results (You have to register but it’s free to search). To check maiden names of the mother as freeBMD doesn’t have them before 1911.

You are aiming to have a family of Morris children all with the same mother’s maiden name.

It is surprisingly common for people to have their year of birth incorrect so don’t get too hung up about 1909. However the day and month are likely to be correct.

I’ve been looking in the 1911 census but so far nothing that leaps out.
Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: Dundee on Friday 09 April 21 12:31 BST (UK)
Address is listed as 3 Mersey Street, Nottinghill (Street no longer exists, but there are loads of Morris' listed on that street)

Am I right in assuming that this is the same Mersey Street said to be in Hammersmith and Fulham district on electoral rolls in the 1920s/30s?

If so then one of the two families living there were this one shown in 1911...

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLZ-HLW

John Alfred MORRIS married Kate (Katherine) GREEN in 1903 in Hammersmith and he died in 1935.  If you have a look at the 1939 Register you will see that one of the sons has the same occupation as your Charles.

The other family is Charles Henry MORRIS and Sarah Ann.

Who witnessed the marriage between your Charles and Lillian?

Debra  :)

Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: Dundee on Friday 09 April 21 12:45 BST (UK)

If so then one of the two families living there were this one shown in 1911...

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLZ-HLW

Debra  :)


If you go back to the household before John and Katherine you will find Charles and 'Annie' and Charles is a flower seller. 

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLZ-HLS

Charles and Annie in 1901, Charles is a Florist.

Class: RG13; Piece: 24; Folio: 76; Page: 34

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: Dundee on Friday 09 April 21 13:25 BST (UK)

Charles Morris born 17th June 1909 in Richmond (?)



Clearly Charles was fibbing about Charles the florist being his father unless he is actually the George BROWN from 1911.  Just for interest, of the baptisms that I can see none of John and Katherine's sons were born on 17 June.  James was registered in the June quarter of 1908 but he was born 20 April.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: MiniFlick on Friday 09 April 21 17:46 BST (UK)
Quote
Who witnessed the marriage between your Charles and Lillian?

It looks like its 2 unrelated witnesses....  C. Holloway  &  A. J. Sparey / Sparry
M. R. Baines Registrar, E Hammersmith Superintendent Registrar

This is all I can read so it might be completely wrong!
Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: MiniFlick on Friday 09 April 21 18:17 BST (UK)
Again thankyou so much for the help! I literally have no idea what I'm doing so this is incredible!



Is there any explanation for this household setup?

Charles Morris      Male         41      London Hampstead, London
Annie Morris      Female    38   Wilton, Wiltshire
Annie Bruce      Female    13   London Kensington, London
George Brown      Male         1        Kensington, London

And is it really realistic that 'George Brown' could be my Charles Morris?!
Or is it more likely that this is just another Charles Morris family?

(and the Katherine Green family is the best bet? )


Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: mckha489 on Friday 09 April 21 21:25 BST (UK)
I wonder if there is any significance to the place of birth for George Brown that has been crossed out.

Marloes Rd, Kensington.

Lots of servants....
Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 10 April 21 03:21 BST (UK)
The Kensington workhouse was in Marloes Road.


And is it really realistic that 'George Brown' could be my Charles Morris?!


I don't see why not, but unfortunate if it is.  I would wait for the 1921 census which isn't too far away to see who is in Charles and Annie's household.

Is there any explanation for this household setup?

Charles Morris      Male         41      London Hampstead, London
Annie Morris      Female    38   Wilton, Wiltshire
Annie Bruce      Female    13   London Kensington, London
George Brown      Male         1        Kensington, London


Charles and Annie had no children of their own so it looks like they fostered instead.  Annie BRUCE was born Martha Ann BRUCE in 1898 to Robert BRUCE and Maria EDWARDS.  She had three siblings, two died in infancy but her brother Robert reached adulthood.  A likely scenario is that the mother died and the children were fostered out.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 10 April 21 03:46 BST (UK)

Or is it more likely that this is just another Charles Morris family?


Charles and Annie are at the same address as John and Katherine in 1911 and going forward on electoral rolls and the 1939 register they are all at 3 Mersey Street, including Martha Ann (Annie) BRUCE.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 10 April 21 13:31 BST (UK)
In 1935 there is a Charles Morris, a street paviour. (=bricklayer??). In court for the robbery of a garage in Notting Hill.

Charles’ address is The Grove, Hammersmith. He is 29 so age is a bit out. They were discharged.

This one is Charles the son of John and Katherine who was born in 1906. He was living at The Grove with his wife Regina. There are a number of the MORRIS family mentioned in criminal news reports.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Help! ??? Charles Morris b1909 m1931 d1982 Brentford/Middlesex/Nottinghill
Post by: MiniFlick on Monday 19 April 21 20:15 BST (UK)
Thankyou so much for helping me with this! I'm loving seeing all the info!

I'm still really in a pickle on how to know who Charles Morris' parents are or how to go about tracing the family! I've set up trees for both of these possibilities on Ancestry - and after a DNA test I was hoping a match from that side of the family would also have a tree - or someone would be able to help me connect the dots - but so far there is nothing!

If i cant do any more with the information I have, (or with lovely people like you volunteering!) How else would I go about tracing his line?

F xx