RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: greyingrey on Sunday 11 April 21 15:56 BST (UK)
-
this is not really a question about family history, but it does touch on it.
I dont know the correct term, but I do know that until fairly recently you couldn't convert. to judaism...you were born into the religion.
does anyone have a rough idea of when that started....presumably there must have been new followers early on....ive read. Simon scharmas books, but can't find anything there, so you're my last hope before I email him.
and that will serve him right 8)
-
I believe that Reform Judaism accepts converts, but would doubt that Orthodox Judaism would. Some time 20th Century, possibly, although I've no evidence. Judaism is maternally traced - if Mum was Jewish, then children are, so I assume that in the event that Mum was not born Jewish, some arrangement had to be made.
-
Was Mr Google no help? Jewish family history societies?
Edit. I asked Mr. G.
"Converting to Judaism - Basics" (BBC, archived)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/beliefs/conversion.shtml
There's a current series on BBC 1 about faiths.
Wiki article "Who is Jewish?"
There's no simple answer to your question. It depends on which branch of Judaism.
-
You can convert to Judaism and becoming an Orthodox Jew is certainly one of the options.
There are requirements, of course, which include studying under the correct Orthodox rabbis.
The type, or level, of your conversion would matter under certain circumstances such as burial and making aliyah. If you were a woman who wanted to convert before marriage to an Orthodox man, and you wanted to be buried with him when the time came, you'd have to have an Orthodox conversion.
Jews don't proselytize but I think conversion has been permissible for thousands of years. The Bible contains the Book of Ruth, a woman who converted to Judaism (albeit with different requirements).
Regards,
Josephine
-
Yes, it was Ruth I was thinking of, I suspect, Josephine.
TY
-
That is a lovely story ,of Ruth remaining with her mother in law Naomi .
When Naomi told Ruth to go back to her people ,The Moabites ,Ruth said
The lovely words ,” Wither thou goest I will go ,thy people will be my people
and thy God my God “.
My parents had two lovely pictures,Ruth and Naomi and Boaz and Ruth .
Boaz was the owner of the field where Ruth and Naomi were gleaning .
Viktoria.
-
thank you...yes, thats a lovely story, Viktoria.
the first instance I knew of conversion to judaism was Elizabeth Taylor, who, I think, converted in the 1970s....I didn't know it had almost always been possible in some branches.
ive got a family where the jewish father is first seen in England in 1820, having come over from present day Poland....I know his grandchildren left the faith, but I dont know if his wife and daughters. in law were born jewish or converted....I can only see that one of his daughters in law was born in Portsea, where there was a. large jewish community, but the others were born in areas of England that were not noted for that and there are no clues in their families
-
Jewish genealogy is interesting,briefly the mother’s line is so important as Jewish people say,” You always know who your mother is ,your father——-?”
There is no little picture for the expressive shoulder shrug after such a “ one liner”.
Viktoria.
-
thank you...yes, thats a lovely story, Viktoria.
the first instance I knew of conversion to judaism was Elizabeth Taylor, who, I think, converted in the 1970s....I didn't know it had almost always been possible in some branches.
[/quote
Liz Taylor converted in 1959 according to wiki.
You might get some help from www.jewishgen.org.
-
ive got a family where the jewish father is first seen in England in 1820, having come over from present day Poland....I know his grandchildren left the faith, but I dont know if his wife and daughters. in law were born jewish or converted....I can only see that one of his daughters in law was born in Portsea, where there was a. large jewish community, but the others were born in areas of England that were not noted for that and there are no clues in their families
When you say there are no clues in their families, do you mean in the family stories that have been passed down to the present time, or do you mean in the research you've done into the family?
-
ive got a family where the jewish father is first seen in England in 1820, having come over from present day Poland....I know his grandchildren left the faith, but I dont know if his wife and daughters. in law were born jewish or converted....I can only see that one of his daughters in law was born in Portsea, where there was a. large jewish community, but the others were born in areas of England that were not noted for that and there are no clues in their families
Have you found their marriage. There should be some clues there surely. It could be that the father did not follow the faith either.
-
thanks....when I. say wife, I can't find. a marriage...there was maybe an informal jewish ceremony...they lived in Nottingham and there was an address where these took place.
sadly, my branch of the family kept quiet about their jewish heritage...indeed they made jewish so called jokes.
but my grandfather...from the jewish line...gave my grandmother one of those agreements when they became engaged that states what he would bring into the marriage...sorrry, I can't remember the correct name.
other descendants have been told by their families that the grandchildren's generation...ie my. great grandparents....officially left the faith....but how far their parents and grandparents had followed it, I dont know.
apart from the clue that one daughter in law was born in Portsea, the daughters and. son in law and the wife or partner were all born in England and , as far back as I can see, their families had always lived in England and in parts of England where there weren't particularly large jewish populations.
by the way, jewish posters might be interested to know that there is reasonably strong...but, unfortunately not conclusive, evidence that a nobleman who lived at nottm castle had his life saved by a jew protected a group of jews in the city from expulsion and they masqueraded as a breakaway christian sect who celebrated on the jewish sabbath...they lived very near to the castle...we know that they existed but there remains the question as to whether they were really unorthodox. christians...it seems highly unlikely, but we have no proof
-
If Jewish people do say ” You always know who your mother is ,your father——-?” then, again it seems to be yet another sweeping statement about paternity and can be quite hurtful.
-
It's a legitimate point and that's why men are so touchy about it.
-
thanks....when I. say wife, I can't find. a marriage...there was maybe an informal jewish ceremony...they lived in Nottingham and there was an address where these took place.
I'm not aware of an informal Jewish wedding ceremony. If such a thing exists, I hope someone will chime in and confirm.
If you haven't been able to find a marriage, it's possible they weren't married. That happened with some of my ancestors (one Jewish/Christian couple and one Protestant/Catholic couple, both in the 1800s).
Places you could look for clues (if the records still exist):
Burial records, funeral home records and obits. Were they buried in a Jewish or Christian cemetery?
Synagogue records. Are any of your relatives mentioned? Perhaps one was the president of his synagogue for a time.
Church records. It can be useful to check for baptisms, in addition to marriages and burials. Children of mixed-faith marriages were sometimes baptized; sometimes they weren't, but one might have been baptized as an adult, which could be a clue.
but my grandfather...from the jewish line...gave my grandmother one of those agreements when they became engaged that states what he would bring into the marriage...sorrry, I can't remember the correct name.
Was it a ketubah? If so, this would suggest that your grandparents were married in a synagogue.
other descendants have been told by their families that the grandchildren's generation...ie my. great grandparents....officially left the faith....but how far their parents and grandparents had followed it, I dont know.
Even if a Jewish person doesn't believe in God, or if s/he believes in God but isn't particularly religious, s/he is still a Jew, and therefore can still be married in a synagogue and buried in a Jewish cemetery. So your grandfather, for example, might not have been religious, but it sounds like he was Jewish, if he had a ketubah and was presumably married in a synagogue.
Regards,
Josephine
-
If Jewish people do say ” You always know who your mother is ,your father——-?” then, again it seems to be yet another sweeping statement about paternity and can be quite hurtful.
Lots of people say that because, hurtful or not, it's true.
The wisdom behind the decision to follow matrilineal descent, which was made more than 3000 years ago, is borne out in the many TV shows we see today about DNA discoveries and family secrets.
-
As I mentioned quite early in this, if the mother is Jewish, that's clear. If the mother is not Jewish, then usually I'd think at least a conversion and the proper, formal marriage ceremonies would be needed.
-How sure are that your ancestors actually are Jewish? you seem to be having difficulty finding evidence of any Jewish links, so far.
good luck with your hunt.
TY
-
If Jewish people do say ” You always know who your mother is ,your father——-?” then, again it seems to be yet another sweeping statement about paternity and can be quite hurtful.
Lots of people say that because, hurtful or not, it's true.
The wisdom behind the decision to follow matrilineal descent, which was made more than 3000 years ago, is borne out in the many TV shows we see today about DNA discoveries and family secrets.
Yes I know it is true, but out of 100% it is estimated that only about 2 to 5% of such cases occurred. So about 1 in 20 of your male ancestors may not be a blood ancestor, that sounds right, so the chances the ones you have traced are actual ancestors is still very high.
Anyway, I always thought anyone could convert to any religion they wanted to, and that anyone could be a Jew if they wished.
-
Anyway, I always thought anyone could convert to any religion they wanted to, and that anyone could be a Jew if they wished.
IIRC, that hasn't always been the case with the LDS church, but they've changed their rules in recent years/decades.
-
ive got a family where the jewish father is first seen in England in 1820, having come over from present day Poland....I know his grandchildren left the faith, but I dont know if his wife and daughters. in law were born jewish or converted....I can only see that one of his daughters in law was born in Portsea, where there was a. large jewish community, but the others were born in areas of England that were not noted for that and there are no clues in their families
Are you referring to Lyon Asher?
If I'm right it might be useful if you could post links to your various threads about him so that folks here can get an idea of the searches you've already undertaken and will be more able to help you :)
-
Anyway, I always thought anyone could convert to any religion they wanted to, and that anyone could be a Jew if they wished.
IIRC, that hasn't always been the case with the LDS church, but they've changed their rules in recent years/decades.
OK thanks, that is interesting about the LDS church.
-
If Jewish people do say ” You always know who your mother is ,your father——-?” then, again it seems to be yet another sweeping statement about paternity and can be quite hurtful.
Coombs that statement was said to me in Manchester’s beautiful Spanish and Portuguese Synagogue on Cheetham Hill Road , now a museum to the life of the many immigrants who had fled the pogroms etc in 19C Europe.
As they prospered they moved out of central M/c to suburbs like Whitefield and Prestwich where there is an invisible cordon, for Orthodox Jews to conduct their lives according to the strict Mosaic laws.
I was enquiring about searching for the Jewish family after whose little girl I got my name with its unusual spelling.
She and I were born the same day ,her father wanted to commemorate the event and asked that I be named after his baby.
There was supposed to be an endowment but I could imagine there most probably wasn’t as his business was mainly with his German Jewish family
in Germany.
I had no wish to pursue that aspect but was just curious as to their second name ,and so asked a guide at the museum.A Jewish lady.
It was she who said the mother’s line is so important and said what I put in my post.
I did find who she was but left it at that.
No idea what happened to them.Hope in 1937 they did not go to Germany!
A newspaper cutting from the time was lost after my Dad died and the house was cleared.
If you have never looked at “ Old Jews telling Jewish jokes” , well you have missed hilarious jokes said in a special way and laughing at them until you feel exhausted.
All directed at themselves and their culture .
I was at school with many Jewish girls in North Manchester.
My quote was not in any way meant to be derogatory ,to Jewish people nor was it misanthropic ,meaning specifically men rather than mankind .
Wish you well with your research.
And if you have bought any new clothes recently I wish you well to wear them.
Viktoria.
-
oh, thank you for all your interesting replies
well, all I know about informal jewish weddings is that ive been told they took place...and there is a council plaque in Nottingham which states that these and other informal jewish worship and ceremonies took place on that site...on the other hand, their christian church in nottm would. have been the. mother church there....st Marys...and I believe there are still lots of records. to be gone through or missing...there wasn't a synagogue or. a jewish graveyard in the area at that time...I know they were buried under the auspices of st Marys.
my ggg grandfathers arrival in nottm...on the census records it says born in Germany....coincided with the recruitment by a David Cohen of jews from modern day Poland to work either directly in the nottm lace trade or as hawkers of lace....my ancestor was a hawker and, when he. first arrived, he lived in a tenement with other arrivals with names that seem mainly jewish..I know names are are not conclusive, but the evidence does seem pretty strong here...and his own children were given what we think of as jewish names.
subsequent generations were married and buried in christian rites.
an intriguing factor is my direct ancestor...great grandfather...who was of the generation ive been told officially left the jewish faith...his name. was Joseph...I know thats not a particularly jewish name...he was. the oldest son of Jacob, and, just before his marriage, he changed his name to James, thereby following the. native tradition of the oldest son being given the same name...albeit anglicised...as his father.
unfortunately, they weren't prominent enough to feature in local life.
the. document I have is legally bound and executed, but my grandparents married in a christian church...my grandmother was. anglican to the point of casting aspersions on non conformists, but maybe that was an exaggeration as a defence.
id guess that they were nominally jewish at first and kept up a cultural tradition later
-
If Jewish people do say ” You always know who your mother is ,your father——-?” then, again it seems to be yet another sweeping statement about paternity and can be quite hurtful.
Coombs that statement was said to me in Manchester’s beautiful Spanish and Portuguese Synagogue on Cheetham Hill Road , now a museum to the life of the many immigrants who had fled the pogroms etc in 19C Europe.
As they prospered they moved out of central M/c to suburbs like Whitefield and Prestwich where there is an invisible cordon, for Orthodox Jews to conduct their lives according to the strict Mosaic laws.
I was enquiring about searching for the Jewish family after whose little girl I got my name with its unusual spelling.
She and I were born the same day ,her father wanted to commemorate the event and asked that I be named after his baby.
There was supposed to be an endowment but I could imagine there most probably wasn’t as his business was mainly with his German Jewish family
in Germany.
I had no wish to pursue that aspect but was just curious as to their second name ,and so asked a guide at the museum.A Jewish lady.
It was she who said the mother’s line is so important and said what I put in my post.
I did find who she was but left it at that.
No idea what happened to them.Hope in 1937 they did not go to Germany!
A newspaper cutting from the time was lost after my Dad died and the house was cleared.
If you have never looked at “ Old Jews telling Jewish jokes” , well you have missed hilarious jokes said in a special way and laughing at them until you feel exhausted.
All directed at themselves and their culture .
I was at school with many Jewish girls in North Manchester.
My quote was not in any way meant to be derogatory ,to Jewish people nor was it misanthropic ,meaning specifically men rather than mankind .
Wish you well with your research.
And if you have bought any new clothes recently I wish you well to wear them.
Viktoria.
Thanks. Also you cannot always been 100% sure who the mother is in genealogy, I say 99.9% for the mother. I am sure I have a couple in 1835 who paraded as the parents but were the grandparents.
-
well, all I know about informal jewish weddings is that ive been told they took place...and there is a council plaque in Nottingham which states that these and other informal jewish worship and ceremonies took place on that site...
Very interesting; thanks!
-
Hello Greyingrey,
I admire your tenacity; still chipping away at this seemingly impenetrable brick wall after more than 10 years.
Going back to your original question about conversion to Judaism, I quote the following line from the paper entitled The Rabbinate of the Great Synagogue, 'There are many instances of conversions to Judaism, mostly of women who were about to marry Jews, and others who lived with Jews and had children from them, in which cases the children were likewise converted'.
The line refers to the minutes of the Beth Din (Rabbinical Court) in London in the period 1835 to 1855.
The paper goes on to say, 'During the Rabbi's tenure of office a non-Jew who desired to convert to Judaism had to go to Holland or other places on the Continent to undergo the ceremony, the London Beth Din only confirmed the act ...'.
The rabbi in question was Solomon Hirschell, who was Chief Rabbi of Great Britain from about 1805 till his death in 1842.
We can tentatively conclude that it may have been possible, although not easy, for Lyon's future wife to convert to Judaism. But the evidence, i.e. Anglican marriage and baptism records, suggests that she did not.
Taking up your point about informal Jewish marriages, you are probably referring to what later became known as 'stille chuppah' (literally 'silent canopy'). To be married by a rabbi authorised by the Chief Rabbi, a prospective couple had to demonstrate that they were of Jewish parents. This could only be done if they happened to posses their parents' Jewish marriage contract, the ketubah, or a certificate of conversion. The vast majority of Jewish immigrants to the UK would not have possessed the document. Hirschell's successor was particularly strict on the matter. This led to couples seeking out and being married by unauthorised rabbis, meaning that they were perhaps married in the eyes of God, but not in the eyes of the law.
I think your conclusion about the family is correct. Lyon was originally Jewish, but as a young bachelor travelling alone around the Midlands, far away from the centre of Anglo-Jewry (i.e. London), he felt no compulsion to remain a practicing orthodox Jew. The few sources on the establishment of the Jewish community in Nottingham date its founding to the early 1820s and there is, as you may know, no mention of Lyon Asher amongst the founders or known members.
Nonetheless, I find it interesting that many of this children were given what appear to be Jewish names. But then naming children after deceased relatives was certainly not an exclusively Jewish custom.
-
PS. My I ask what is the source of your statement, 'the recruitment by a David Cohen of Jews from modern day Poland to work either directly in the nottm lace trade or as hawkers of lace'?
On a personal, but probably irrelevant note, Newcastle Street was under what is now the Victoria Centre, where I used to buy the trendiest Topman and Next clothes as a student in the mid 1980s.
-
Viktoria, you mention you enjoy Jewish humour.... do you know the wonderful "Call from Long Island" sketch?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFm5h5GM1BY
One of the funniest things I have ever heard I think.
-
thanks Justin,
im still chipping away at this because I keep finding out new stuff in general and because there's not much hope of finding anything before Lyons arrival in nottm.
the. first trace of Lyon is actually in 1820 when he was. summoned for not paying the poor. tax...ive got a copy of the summons.
David Cohen may have been David levy...one of those, sorry....I. got. the information from a book called a history of Nottingham jews or a history of jews in Nottingham...my copy is under a pile of papers somewhere....its out of print, but I got a reasonably priced copy from Abe books...he became highly respectable and oddly became a prominent freemason in Leeds where he eventually settled
lyons. sons, Jacob and rueben, together with a. friend, tried, and very nearly succeeded, in murdering a man in an alley off bridlesmith gate, and. would have been around. where selectadisc was where I bought much of my priceless punk collection...as another poster has said, they'd. have had. a great time mugging people in the vic centre
-
mowsehowsie...I loved that. clip....any tips on searching for. jewish forbears in Poland
-
Oh thanks for reminding me, the lengths the mother is prepared to go to!
Another is “The reading of the will”,totally directed at Jewish family life.l
There was inr about a market stall and the “spiel” the stsllholder used to get out of a difficult situation when a dissatisfied customer cut up rough!
Thanks again.Viktoria.
-
mowsehowsie...I loved that. clip....any tips on searching for. jewish forbears in Poland
https://www.familytreemagazine.com/heritage/polish/polish-genealogy-websites/
There is quite a lot of useful stuff here, and several groups on f*cebo*k if you use that?
-
thank you
-
I found a real metziah when I bought the new Suffolk Burial index. Metziah is old Yiddish word for bargain, I think it also can mean "big deal". My whole Suffolk mishpucha (family) can be a bit easier to trace now.
-
I found a real metziah when I bought the new Suffolk Burial index. Metziah is old Yiddish word for bargain, I think it also can mean "big deal". My whole Suffolk mishpucha (family) can be a bit easier to trace now.
This reminds me of a really good book: "Outwitting History; The Amazing Adventures of a Man Who Rescued a Million Yiddish Books." It's an interesting story.