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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Essnell on Sunday 25 April 21 11:46 BST (UK)

Title: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Sunday 25 April 21 11:46 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone.  I have a problem which needs the above information to solve.

Couple from Scotland immigrate to Australia 1862 with two young children:

Alexander McFadyen  [born 1837 Ayrshire, Scotland Died 1909 Australia] and wife Christina, about whom I know little that is accurate or otherwise.

Married  18th February 1859.

Children:  James Clelland McFadyen 1859 -1921 Born Scotland, Died Australia
                Anthony McFadyen   1861 - 1863   Born Scotland, Died Australia

 I have no birth information for either child

They also had a daughter, un-named in 1860 in Scotland.  The search gives her mother as Christina Brown. 
The lady I need to know about is Christina Brown.  I have got a copy of her death certificate here in Queensland, Australia giving the DOD as 24th January 1916 age 74. Using that her DoB would be C 1842. The Death Cert also has her parents as James Brown and Isabell.

I have seen where these names are conflicting as to James and Isabel as her parents.  I have also seen Broun  and Brune used as Christina's last name.

Once in Australia I have traced their other children. 

I have tried Scotlands People but couldn't find anything that helped. and usual search engines.  Trees are also conflicting with information that I also cannot verify. 

Any help with her birth parents would be greatly appreciated. 

Regards, Essnell


Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 25 April 21 12:13 BST (UK)
Scotland's People has a listing of the marriage of Alexander McFadgan to Christina Brown in Dalmellington in 1859. Her marriage certificate should give you the correct names of her parents.

The only 1861 census listing that looks anything like them is in Edinburgh
Alexander McFadzen, 26, coachman, born Midlothian
Christe McFadzen, 32, wife, born Glasgow

Never trust anything you find online, especially trees submitted to commercial web sites, unless and until you have seen an original document to verify the information.

See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: GR2 on Sunday 25 April 21 12:25 BST (UK)
Alexander "McFadgan", ironstone miner, aged "20", who could not write, son of the late Samuel "Mc Fadgan" and his wife, Elizabeth Cameron, married Christina Brown, aged "20", daughter of James Brown, ironstone miner, and his wife, the late Agnes Beveridge, at Burnfoothill, Dalmellington, Ayrshire, om 18th February 1859. Both were resident at Burnfoothill.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Sunday 25 April 21 14:02 BST (UK)
Hi Forfarian and GR2.

Firstly I never trust trees. That's why I do the research for myself.  The only use trees are is that, like other things, they give clues, and one must check and recheck if possible.

Now this information from both you and GR2 is something I have seen but it does not fit with Christina's death certificate information, that her Mother's name was Isabell and no last name given. 

My thought is that Christina would have told that information to her relatives at some stage and she obviously didn't tell them her mother was Agnes.

Do you people know when Agnes Beverage died.   Or when did Agnes marry James Brown. 

In the mean time I'll try finding those or anything else I can think of.

Knowing that might help with my thinking here. 

Thanks for helping and the great information.

Essnell
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 25 April 21 18:23 BST (UK)
Generally speaking, if there is a conflict between information on a marriage certificate and information on a death certificate, the marriage certificate is more likely to be right because the information on it is supplied by the person getting married, whereas the information on a death certificate is, by definition, not provided by the person who has died, and it's not unusual for a grandson who never knew his grandmother to get it wrong.

You'll probably find eventually that Christina's grandmother was Isabel(l)(a), or something along those lines. 
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: BillyF on Sunday 25 April 21 23:18 BST (UK)
Generally speaking, if there is a conflict between information on a marriage certificate and information on a death certificate, the marriage certificate is more likely to be right because the information on it is supplied by the person getting married, whereas the information on a death certificate is, by definition, not provided by the person who has died, and it's not unusual for a grandson who never knew his grandmother to get it wrong.

You'll probably find eventually that Christina's grandmother was Isabel(l)(a), or something along those lines.

I agree. I have Isabels in my tree, several different spellings. SP is quite sensitive with the accuarcy bewteen the criteria in the search and the results.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Monday 26 April 21 01:08 BST (UK)
Hi  Everyone,

GR2.  Thank you it has arrived and i have read it  carefully.   It also  noted, in Brackets, that Agnes Brown was deceased at the time of Christina's marriage. so i am now about to try to find that little piece of info ..Agnes's Death date.   As well as that one of the witnesses is I.T. Brown.

Yes it is possible that Isabella is a relative  - may be grandmother or aunt, or step mum. 
 
Regards Essnell



 
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Annette7 on Monday 26 April 21 02:13 BST (UK)
A James Dewar Brown married an Agnes Beveridge March 1835 New Monkland, Lanarkshire.

1841 Census New Monkland, Lanarkshire

James Brown    30     Coal Miner   (born Scotland but not in Lanarkshire)
Agness Brown   25                                             ditto
Isabella Brown  5                          born Lanarkshire
Christina Brown 3                          born Scotland but not in Lanarkshire

Annette
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Monday 26 April 21 09:26 BST (UK)
Hi Annette7.

Thank you for the 1841 information. Thus sisters and just two years apart.
So her sister, Isabell was a witness which often was the case.   

I think I shall still try to get Agnes's death date.

Kind regards
Essnell.

 
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Monday 26 April 21 09:57 BST (UK)
If Agnes was dead by 1859, she may have died before the start of civil registration in 1855, and if so her death record, if it exists, won't tell you who her parents were.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Fogmoose on Thursday 06 May 21 04:57 BST (UK)
The recent release of the Kirk Session records has been quite a benefit to me, and it may be useful to you as well. It takes a bit of work, but the records are free to view and you may get lucky and find something useful. It's certainly a resource to keep in mind. Good luck!
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Thursday 06 May 21 11:08 BST (UK)
HI Frogmoose,

Thank you for that information.  I'll try the Kirk Session records.  Something new comes up every day.

Regards Essnell
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: MonicaL on Thursday 06 May 21 21:06 BST (UK)
Has anyone been able to find the birth entries for James and Anthony I wonder? I am searching with wildcards, M*cf*n, and nothing showing on SP.

On Family Search I can see the birth of the unnamed girl www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ4B-K78 and on SP her death shows in Holytown in 1860, mother maiden's name Brown.

Essnell, the dates you have are quite tight. Married in February 1859, had James that year. Got pregnant and had baby girl in March 1860 and then Anthony in 1861.

Could James have been born outside of the marriage? For example, www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F79Z-YLY

As for Anthony?

Would help to be able to find them in the 1861 census now that GR2 has confirmed ages and occupation for Alexander from the 1859 marriage register.

Monica
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: ruthhelen on Friday 07 May 21 13:29 BST (UK)
This is indeed a mystery - like you Monica, I can't find any birth records for James Clelland McFadyen or Anthony McFadyen - nor any conclusive evidence of Alexander McFadyen existing before he appears on the 1859 marriage record.

However, I have a somewhat radical theory, but to follow it through, we need to return to the parents of Christina Brown - James Dewar Brown and Agnes Beveridge...

James Dewar Brown married Agnes Beveridge in 1835 - the banns were called in Airdrie, Lanarkshire, and Newton, Midlothian. James was residing in Airdrie, and Agnes in Newton. This couple had a daughter - Isabella Harper Brown - baptised at the United Secession Church in Airdrie on 12 Feb 1837 (b. 24 Dec 1836) - both parents are named.

There is also a Christina Brown who was baptised at the United Presbyterian Church in Dalkeith, Midlothian on 11 Aug 1839 (b. 1 Jul 1839) - the entry simply reads: Ďdaughter of Brown, EasthousesÖí so impossible to know if this is our Christina, although the age and location appear to potentially match. There are several Brown families in Easthouses in 1841 - all miners - but none of them are James, and none have a daughter Christina, although the child could, of course, have died in infancy.

As mentioned previously, this appears to be our Brown family in 1841 in New Monkland. Note that all the family, aside from Isabella, were born outside Lanarkshire.

1841 New Monkland, Lanarkshire
James Brown, 30, coal miner, Scotland
Agness Brown, 25, Scotland
Isabella Brown, 5, Lanarkshire
Christina Brown, 3, Scotland

James Dewar Brown appears again in the 1851 census in Old Cumnock, Ayrshire, as a widower, and with (apparently) another daughter named Elizabeth. So it looks likely that Agnes Beveridge died between 1841 and 1851.

1851 Old Cumnock, Ayrshire
James Dewar Brown, 40, widowed, coal miner, Edmonston, Midlothian
Elizabeth Brown, 14, daughter, Ruthin, Midlothian

Is 'Elizabeth' Christina? I can't find another obvious candidate for Christina in 1851, but neither do I have a positive sighting of Isabella (although there is an Isabella Brown of a suitable age and birth location working as a servant in Dunipace, Stirlingshire).

By 1861, James is in Whitburn, West Lothian, and Isabella is back with him:

1861 Whitburn, West Lothian
James Brown, 52, widowed, ironstone miner, Edmonston, Midlothian
Isabella Brown, 25, daughter, Airdrie, Lanarkshire
Alexander Cameron, 23, boarder, ironstone miner, Edmonstone, Midlothian
Christina Cameron, 23, boarder, Edmonstone, Midlothian
James Cameron, 3, Old Cumnock, Ayrshire

Iím intrigued by the ĎCameroní family who are lodging with James and daughter Isabella. They are the right age and occupation to be Alexander McFadyen, Christina Brown and their son James Clelland McFadyen - what intrigues me is that Cameron is the maiden name of Alexander McFadyenís mother, according to his 1859 marriage.

I canít find any record of a marriage between an Alexander Cameron and a Christina/Christian - nor was there a James Cameron born in Old Cumnock to an Alexander Cameron and Christina/Christian.

However, there is a James Brown Ferguson who was born in Old Cumnock in 1858, the illegitimate son of David Ferguson and Christina Brown. David Ferguson married Jane Burns, with whom he had six further children, about two weeks before his illegitimate son was born, but this child doesnít appear with his family in any subsequent censuses - and he doesnít appear to have died in infancy, as I canít find a death registration.

SoÖ my theory is that Christina Brownís son James Brown Ferguson could be the child that became James Clelland McFadyen - and may also be the James Cameron who appears in the 1861 census in Whitburn. Clearly I have no conclusive evidence to prove this - but neither can I find any conclusive evidence to disprove itÖ.  ???

Ruth
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: MonicaL on Friday 07 May 21 15:08 BST (UK)
Ruth, you have worked hard on this, trying to unravel  ;)

I see where you are with this though. Re Alexander, there are a couple of possibilities for a father called Samuel McFadgen (and variants) on the 1841 census. They both look to be single, one a miner and the other a farm labourer. Thinking of Alexander maybe being illegitimate, I saw this entry in Midlothian for mother and son? Both showing as born in the county. A/try have entry as Camann, edited to Cameron:

Elizabeth Cameron 29 Hat trim
Alexander Cameron 4

Address: Bailie Fyfes Close, Edinburgh Trinity College

Monica
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: MonicaL on Friday 07 May 21 15:10 BST (UK)
Just going by names and location, I saw this yesterday and wondered how and if it connects with this family group www.scottishindexes.com/courtentry.aspx?courtid=35001011

Monica
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: MonicaL on Friday 07 May 21 15:13 BST (UK)
Ruth, with your mention of the middle name Harper for first born daughter Isabella...

Came across this earlier which I now think may be James Dewar Brown's family https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/93WN-XFK/andrew-brown-1804-1864 Potentially father also James Dewar Brown and mother Isabella Harper?

Monica
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Fogmoose on Friday 07 May 21 15:50 BST (UK)
Ruth is pretty darn good with her theories, so don't discount that idea...see the last page of this thread where she was proved to be correct!

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=764025.msg6205322#msg6205322

A look through the Kirk Session records might provide some help....

Good work everyone on this!
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: MonicaL on Friday 07 May 21 16:20 BST (UK)
She certainly is! Master Sleuth  ;)

Monica
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: ruthhelen on Friday 07 May 21 17:57 BST (UK)
She certainly is! Master Sleuth  ;)

How very kind  ;D

I do like a good puzzle...

Ruth
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: ruthhelen on Friday 07 May 21 18:00 BST (UK)
Thinking of Alexander maybe being illegitimate, I saw this entry in Midlothian for mother and son? Both showing as born in the county. A/try have entry as Camann, edited to Cameron:

Elizabeth Cameron 29 Hat trim
Alexander Cameron 4

Address: Bailie Fyfes Close, Edinburgh Trinity College


Yes, I did come across that entry and wondered if it could be them. Haven't had much luck tracking either down in 1851 - but there are more Camerons than there are Browns, it seems...  :o
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: ruthhelen on Friday 07 May 21 18:31 BST (UK)
Ruth, with your mention of the middle name Harper for first born daughter Isabella...

Came across this earlier which I now think may be James Dewar Brown's family https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/93WN-XFK/andrew-brown-1804-1864 Potentially father also James Dewar Brown and mother Isabella Harper?

Indeed - I've found seven children born to James Dewar Brown and Isabella Harper so far:

Not tracked all of them down yet - although your link about the paternity decree in relation to Isabella is interesting. I think I have her in 1841 and 1861, but struggling to find her in 1851 and later.

Ruth
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: q98 on Friday 07 May 21 23:26 BST (UK)
Hi ruthhelen
Re the births of John and Isabella in Newton. FYI, that would most probably be Newton-on-Ayr, Ayrshire as it is now known.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: ruthhelen on Friday 07 May 21 23:28 BST (UK)
Hi ruthhelen
Re the births of John and Isabella in Newton. FYI, that would most probably be Newton-on-Ayr, Ayrshire as it is now known.

No, this was Newton in Midlothian, which is just outside Dalkeith.

Ruth
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Saturday 08 May 21 02:11 BST (UK)
Hi everyone ,
I am totally blown away by the response to my post.  One enormous thank you for all the hard work done by so many. Ruthhelen you are a gem.

I have been absent from computer for 36 hours and so many new posts. 

Just looking through all of these I am sure that this is the right family and there are two generations involved here by the looks of things.  Far more than I expected. The links posted are awsome.

I shall check everything through and post again.

Thank you so much .

Essnell


Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Saturday 08 May 21 12:53 BST (UK)
Hi ruthhelen and everyone,
   
About 3 posts back you list the children of James Dewar Brown and Isabella Harper. the first child in the list is Elizabeth Brown b 1801 Inveresk, Midlothian, D. 1868 Rutherglen, Lanarkshire and married George Bainbridge.    :o

This may or may not be significant but in first searching this family I had information on two families immigrating  to Australia.
 One was a Moffatt family and one was a Currie family the year was 1863, the ship the Cairngorm.

On this voyage there was another young male about about 20 : Robert Bower Bainbridge. He was alone. I had been asked to help match up some DNA matches and help in finding missing relatives for a probable cousin.
So in my searching  then I ascertained that he first had a child with one of the Moffatt girls but did not marry her.
 3 years later he married a Currie girl.   
Theory is that the Currie girl was really his choice for wife but was still too young to marry so he waited. In the interim having a child to Miss Moffatt. 
It was also thought that this child eventually became a gt grandfather to my probable cousin indicated by her DNA results. This is most likely correct.

 I worked out that Robert's parents were  probably George Bainbridge and Elizabeth Brown. 

At the time I was endeavouring to link another person from the DNA matches for my Cousin. It was then that Robert Bower Bainbridge became important as he was this match persons  Gt Grandfather.

After establishing the links between the cousins we moved on to others and I never found the connection further back to the Brown family. 

Therefore I am positive you have found the correct family. 

Robert was born 15th August 1840 Dunfirmlin, Fife, Scotland .

From all of the above it looks like there are two lines back to the one family of Browns. 

On the issue of the McFadyen family are there any other ways of spelling this name? Samuel was McFadgan  and I have seen McFadyean.

I am just so excited about all of this.

Thank you so very very much
Essnell
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 08 May 21 13:55 BST (UK)
Spellings were fluid at this time and you will find many variants for many surnames. McFadyen is a particularly tricky one so use where possible wildcards. For example, Scotlands People, Ancestry and Freecen all have the option of using a wildcard ' * '. When I was searching for Samuel, I searched for Sam* M*cf*n  ::) The other problem we face sometimes is transcriptions, particulary which challenging handwriting!

Monica
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 08 May 21 13:57 BST (UK)
What a brilliant likely connection you have made to Elizabeth Brown and George Bainbridge  :) Lots for you to follow up on with the leads provided by Helen.

Monica
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: ruthhelen on Saturday 08 May 21 14:04 BST (UK)
I do love it when the pieces of the jigsaw start to come together  ;D

Has anyone managed to track down James Dewar Brown (b. 1809) and his daughter Isabella Harper Brown (b. 1836) after the 1861 sighting in Whitburn, West Lothian? There's no death records that I can see in Scotland for either of these two using their full names, and because the family seemed to move around so much, there are just too many possible candidates without using the middle names.

I did wonder if they perhaps went to Australia with Christina and her family, but if they did, they didnít go with them on the Utopia - Iíve been through the Utopia manifest, and they donít appear to be there.  ???

Ruth
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 08 May 21 14:15 BST (UK)
Using mother's maiden name of Harper, doesn't bring up James' death between 1855-80

Does bring up a likely death entry for Elizabeth though:

ELIZABETH BROWN/BAINBRIDGE
Age 67
Mother's maiden name HARPER
1868
654/ 269
Rutherglen

Essnell, this registration would let you hopefully confirm Elizabeth's parents's names and the tie up to the Brown/Harper family we have been looking at.

Monica

Added: Sorry Ruth, you had noted this death already!
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Tuesday 11 May 21 04:41 BST (UK)
Hi Ruth, Monica and everyone.

Re the C'sus info 1841, 1851, 1861,  I found all three.   1841 and 1861 correlate perfectly with same info. I actually found two for 1851
 One says that
James is still with Agnes, and
Daughter Jane (30) , Son James (24), Daughter Isabella (14)

The dates seem to fit but not where Isabella was born. Penpoint, Dumfries

They are at  Wie's Land, Bishopbriggs, Lanarkshire   ... they also have 3 lodgers

The other has just James Brown and Daughter Isabella 14yrs

Isabella's birth is Dunfirmlin, Fife.    place: West Nethertown, Dunf. Fife.
 this appears to be the more likely Record. 

So far no luck with 1871.

Re Elizabeth Brown and George Bainbridge.    I found the son's, Robert Bower Bainbridge,  Baptism record in the Old Parish registers for Dunfirmline  so that confirms that part .  No luck with a marriage record for his parents.  I wish!
The link to Andrew Brown is interesting . I think that this is the previous generation and where the Harper name came from.

Thanks again for all of this and the work you have done.

Essnell

Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Tuesday 11 May 21 05:28 BST (UK)
Hi all, just a bit more here :   

1.I got the death cert for Elizabeth Bainbridge and yes her mother's maiden name was on it, so a tie up between the families.
  Now the tree can be put together. Hurrah.

Thanks again Essnell
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Tuesday 18 May 21 03:58 BST (UK)
Hi from Essnell,

I have a questions relating to a part of what was found on this thread.  Hope you can explain this for me. 

i have this part in question?  James Dewar Brown   born 1809  and married Agnes Beveridge in 1835. Their childeren are:
            Isabella Harper Brown born 1836,
            Christina Brown born 1839
            Elizabeth   no date.

Christina married Alexander McFadgan [Mc Fadyen] in 1859

They had two children James born 1859 and Anthony born 1861
they Immigrated to Australia in 1862   
ALL THIS IN IN THIS THREAD AND ALL CORRECT.

Now I have reason to believe that there was another child, William, born just before departure in 1862. I suspect he was left in Scotland as probably too young to take on the long voyage. 

I cannot find for myself a census record for him, in either country, nor a birth Record -  BUT he is noted in several An'stry family trees and one has a Census record for1871 and 1881 for said child with the correct parents.

Now I also have records of residence in Australia that say the father was resident in Australia in 1879,1880, 1881,1882, 1883, 1884 at a property in Central Queensland near the township of Blackall. It was a reasonably large property. I alaso have anote that Alexander was back in Scotland in 1891. 

So he returns every ten years and he is there in time for the census each time. Was this required for some reason?

Now these two census records,1871,1881 state that Alexander McFayden's occupation was"Annuitant".

Would this have been a type of pension? Would he have had to return periodically to Scotland to keep receiving this payment.
Where was William all this time he is 9yrs old on the 1871 and 19 on the 1881 document.  After that ... do not know?

Just after an explanation of the "Annuitant" and any information regarding receiving that.

Any ideas would be helpful.  i am quite suspicious of all this but I do have to check.

Kind regards All
Essnell
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 18 May 21 10:02 BST (UK)
Now I have reason to believe that there was another child, William, born just before departure in 1862. I suspect he was left in Scotland as probably too young to take on the long voyage.
What reason? 

Quote
I cannot find for myself a census record for him, in either country, nor a birth Record -  BUT he is noted in several An'stry family trees
That means nothing. Never trust anything you find online, especially trees submitted to Anc*, unless it's an image of an original document. And even then be wary.

Quote
and one has a Census record for 1871 and 1881 for said child with the correct parents.
Where did these supposed censuses say he was? Does the online tree quote a source for them?

Quote
Now I also have records of residence in Australia that say the father was resident in Australia in 1879,1880, 1881,1882, 1883, 1884 at a property in Central Queensland near the township of Blackall. It was a reasonably large property. I alaso have anote that Alexander was back in Scotland in 1891. 
So he returns every ten years and he is there in time for the census each time. Was this required for some reason?
No. This suggests that there must have been another family with the same names.

Quote
Now these two census records,1871,1881 state that Alexander McFayden's occupation was"Annuitant".
Would this have been a type of pension?
Yes, but privately arranged.

Quote
Would he have had to return periodically to Scotland to keep receiving this payment.
Not unless the terms of the bequest or whatever set up the annuity required it, which is unlikely.

Quote
i am quite suspicious of all this but I do have to check.
Yes, spot on.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 18 May 21 10:23 BST (UK)
There's a McFadyen family in Edinburgh in 1871
Alexander McFadyen, coachman, 36, born Edinburgh
Christian McFadyen, wife, 39, born Glasgow
William McFadyen, son 9, born Edinburgh
John Brady, son, 19, born Bathgate

1n 1881, still in Edinburgh
Alexander McFadyen, 44, annuitant, born Edinburgh
Christina McFadyen, 50, born Glasgow
William McFadyen, 19, born Edinburgh

This couple is Alexander McFadyen and Christina Munro.

Christina Munro, wife of Alexander McFadzean, died in Edinburgh in 1881.

What this means is that (surprise, surprise - not) the Ancestry trees are wrong. The couple in the 1861 census in Edinburgh are not your Alexander and Christian, and William, born 24 August 1861 in Edinburgh, has nothing to do with your family, who were in Australia by 1871.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Tuesday 18 May 21 11:25 BST (UK)
Hi Forfarian
  Thank you so much for the quick and fantastic reply.   I thought as much from some of the data but it was not evident on the first two Census.

I  did find a couple of references myself very much earlier than this episode but I believe they are all relating to this other family.   So no William and no  visits periodicallyback to Scotland.
So many Alexander McFadyens - there are 3 consecutive Generations in this one family of mine.

Thank goodness!!
Another issue solved.

Kind regards
Essnell.   


Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 18 May 21 11:38 BST (UK)
You're welcome.

Should have found it earlier but they are indexed on a commercial site (not Anc*) as McKadyen so naturally searches for M*c*f*d*n failed to find them!

 
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Wednesday 19 May 21 01:55 BST (UK)
HI rorfarian,

Thank you and not a problem. It is really difficult with all the variations to names .  however I now know the correct info and why the other is not so.  Thanks again, much appreciated help. 
 Kind regards ,
Essnell.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Sunday 22 August 21 06:47 BST (UK)
Hello Everyone - who helped on this thread.   I am sorry this is so long.....

I am hoping that some of you may be able to help again.  This is the same family so I have decided to add  here rather than start a new thread.
It concerns James Dewar Brown   Dob C 1772 and  his wife Isabel Harper Dob C 1772.  Originally the question was about their descendants  and Christina Brown. 
Having followed this to it's conclusion there were other connections made.

Now since then I have been looking further into the children of this particular couple  who had about 7 children, if I have found them all.  My particular one of interest is their first child Elizabeth [Elisabethe] who married George Bainbridge, because their son Robert Bower Bainbridge connected to others in my research as before.

George and Elizabeth had 7 children including Robert Bower Bainbridge.  I have been gathering DOBs and DODs for them to tie off the family. However one I am having problem with.  It is there second last child Janet Bainbridge.

Janet Bainbridge was born according to the SP record and Cert copy I purchased on line  25th October 1842 and Baptised 13thNovember 1842 . I have a copy of the parish record containing those dates her parents names and that the child was named Janet.


But when it came to a death record that was a different kettle of fish. I first had to find a marriage so I had a married surname name to search for. That proved difficult.   I couldn't use census eitheras i didn't have the married surname.

  To find a father for these children I decided to look for birth records and as mostly all were well after 1855, I used the select births etc  I found 6 of their birth details by this and purchased the online copies of the registry entries. Not their eldest child Thomas Jnr.

Now this  was interersting:   Their father was stated as Thomas Hetherington and Mother as Janet Hynd Hetherington  and that they were married 12th October 1864 New-york
  and that Janet's M S was Bainbridge.     The New-york was another twist.  I have the death certs for both parents.   Those match up for Janet but Thomas has 'parents not known'.

I have looked for New-york and the only place seems to be Newyork USA.  So I went to the 1861
  and 1871 census records and checked on the children's birth places particularly Thomas as I did not find his on SP.   yes born in USA - America.
I finally found that Thomas Hetherington DOB C 1844 went to the USA in 1863 on board the 'Underwriter'. He was 19 and single.    I have not found a USA marriage for him  or birth for the child Thomas that would be chronoligically acceptable. 


This is as far as I have  got
but  there is another Janet  ... Janet Hynd born 6th June 1843  her parents were William Hynd and Agnes Beveridge.  Everything I look at for her leads straight to these same records above. 

The Janet Bainbridge didn't die till 1882 and she died as Janet Hetherington with parents George Bainbridge and Elizabeth Brown.   

I need to separate these two ladies.

Regards Essnell


Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: ruthhelen on Thursday 26 August 21 09:39 BST (UK)
Not sure exactly what youíre trying to confirm here, but the Janet Hynd, born 1 Jun 1843 to William Hynd and Agnes Beveridge (baptised 11 June 1843 in Aberdour, Fife) is, I think, actually Jane Hynd. The baptism record clearly names her as Janet, but there was also another child baptised on the same day, also named Janet, so itís possible the registrar made an error.

Either way, Jane Hynd consistently appears as Jane in all subsequent records. She married James Halkett in 1865 in Dalgety, Fife. They had 9 children: Agnes Beveridge Halkett, George Halkett, Margaret White Halkett, Jane Hynd Halkett, William Hynd Halkett, Janet Halkett, James Halkett, David Halkett and Elizabeth Hynd Halkett. Jane Halkett (nee Hynd) died in 1926 in Tullialan, Fife.

Thomas Hetherington (b. abt. 1844) is altogether more interesting. He is noted as an orphan in 1851 in Rutherglen, where he appears with the family of George Craig, coal miner and his wife Jean/Jane Adams  (they married in 1846) - heís with the same family in 1861, where he is noted as a boarder. Itís possible heís related to one of these families in some way, although I havenít found any evidence to support that yet.

Ruth
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Thursday 26 August 21 14:53 BST (UK)
Hi Ruthhelen,
 
Thank you for your reply.  Just to clear it up about what I was looking for.

Janet is the daughter of Elizabeth Brown and George Bainbridge in the earlier part of the thread
Posts #21  and #25

I decided to sort through the children for their Dates of birth and deaths and possibly other info as Robert Bower had been the initial person of interest.   This was just to get a family history together.

All was fine till I reached Janet  born 25th October 1842.
.. I was so thrown by the fact that all the children of Janet Bainbridge married to Thomas Hetherington, had her name on their birth records as Janet Hynd Hetherington, M.S. [Maiden Surname]   Bainbridge.  I was not sure if I had the correct family.    Then it made me wonder about this name Hynd.   Hence the other Janet born in 1843 who is a totally different person.

Also those records show that Thomas' s parents are unknown so that fits with the orphan information.

Thank you for the information on where Thomas Hetherington was in the various years, however I am still having issues.  On these birth records, all of them,  it clearly states that Janet and Thomas were married in the USA New-york 1864.  I also found a Thomas Hetherington immigrated to the USA in 1863 . He was 19. The age fits perfectly.

Also on the 1871 and 1881  their son Thomas was born in the USA   5ys old in 1871 , then 15 on the following one.

And the 1871 says that the  Head Thomas was born in Glasgow, Lanarkshire     and the 1817 when he is a border, the birth place is Glasgow Lanarkshire also and he is a clerk.

The immigration statement also says he was a clerk and that occupation is also on the childrenís birth records.    ie. Clerk , Commercial clerk, Spirit Merchant Salesman , Merchant Sales Clerk  etc

  So I think all the above is the correct story,  I would love to get a USA Marriage doc for them or Thomas Jnrís birth there.

Thank you so much for helping me get this part sorted out.   :)
I might see what there is to be found with George and Jean Craig.
Essnell
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Sunday 06 February 22 10:23 GMT (UK)
Hi Essnell,

I am researching the same family and have come to similar conclusions.

In regards to Anthony McFadyen - I also have not found any evidence of him in Australia. Of interest, the birth certificate of Alexander in 1864 it says that they have 2 living children James (5 years) and Agnes (2 years) and 1 dead female. So that opens the possibility that Anthony was actually Agnes.  Agnes/Anthony was not present on the 1861 census (assuming that the Alexander, Christina and James Cameron are actually the McFadyen's), therefore born after 7 Apr 1861. They were listed as being 1 on the passenger manifest, therefore likely born before 11 November 1861.  Like you, I have not found a death in Queensland. Agnes/Anthony have died by 1867 when Christina is born as only James and Alexander are listed as living.  There are no children listed as deceased.

Of interest, when Robert Delzell is born, his birth certificate does not list James. It only lists Alexander, Christina, Elizabeth, Agnes and Rebecca, plus 1 dead female.  This makes me more inclined to think that James was the illegitimate child of Christina Brown.

The 1861 census backs this up, as James Brown is listed as being 3 years old - giving a birth of 1858. Of interest, a James Brown is born in Glasgow on 21 Oct 1858, an illegitimate child of Christina Brown.  From what I can see there is no James McFadyen's in the statutory registers, born to Alexander and Christina McFadyen. Furthermore, there are no James Cameron's born to Alexander and Christina. Between 1856-1860 there are no James McFadyen's registered with a mother's maiden name of Brown or any version of it. There are 2 James Cameron's but neither have a mother of Christina.  It's also possible that they did not register James' birth.

Rona
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Sunday 06 February 22 10:32 GMT (UK)
In regards to the census in 1861, I also think that Alexander, Christina & James Brown are actually the McFadyens. This is largely based on following the movements of James Dewar Brown.

We all seem to agree that James Dewar Brown married Agnes Beveridge in Newton in 1835. The marriage record says that she was from Squaretown in Newton. According to the National Gazetter in 1868, Squaretown is in the parish of Newton, as is Edmonstone. James Dewar Brown says that he was residing in Airdrie, which is located in Lanarkshire, and he was a collier (coal miner). 

In 1841, we think that James, Agnes, Isabella and Christina are living in Coathill in the parish of Old Monkland, which is only about 5km from Airdrie. James is a coal miner. This matches perfectly with the marriage and links us to Christina. Only Isabella was born in the county of Lanarkshire.     

In 1847, Isabella Brown is residing with her brother, James Dewar Brown, miner, in Airdrie. This matches James' name, location and occupation of the 1841 census. James and Agnes likely named their first child after his sister (which also makes it likely that both Isabella's are named after another relative such as mother or grandmother but that's research for another day). The source for that is the Airdrie Sherrif Court decrees.

In 1851, James Dewar Brown (indexed as James Dewan Brown on Scotland's people and James Dowar Brown on Ancestry) is living in Old Cumnock, Ayrshire. He gives his place of birth as Edmonston, Midlothian and says that he's 40 years old and a coal miner.  This matches the age and occupation of James Brown in 1841 and the location and name in 1847.  The birthplace is critical because Edmonstone is a village in Newton, which links us back to the marriage and how he may have known Agnes.  The name and age match the marriage, 1841 and 1847 information.  The reason against this being our James is that on this census is Elizabeth Brown, daughter, aged 16.   This would mean that they were interchanging Elizabeth and Isabella - which is not uncommon but it is the only place it happens. Also, the place of birth is given as somewhere in Midlothian - but I can't read it (It's transcribed as Ruthin but could even be Preston when looking at the original)  However, in 1861, James' information remains the same and Elizabeth is listed as Isabella again.   Christina is not in the household in 1851 and I have not been able to locate her.

In 1859, Christina and Alexander marry. Christina gives her parents as James Brown and Agnes Beveridge, matching the marriage we have in 1835.   Agnes is deceased which matches the 1851 census entry.  I think the is witnesses J.D. Brown although you have I. D. Brown. So either James Dewar or Isabella.  This witness signs their name, as does Christina. Alexander is the only one who has an x for his signature. James is an Ironstone Miner, when in all previous records he is a Coal Miner.   However, in the 1861 census, he is also a ironstone miner.   

In 1861, James Brown, is living in Crofthead in the parish of Whitburn, which is approximately 22km from Airdrie. He is 52 years old, widow, born in Edmonston, Midlothian and a ironstone miner.  This links the occupation stated on the marriage, and the place of birth and age in the 1851 census.   Isabella is in the household as well, stating that she is born in Airdrie.  This matches the 1841 census, and she would have been born close to James' residence on the marriage certificate and the residence in 1847.   

Given that we can follow the path of James Brown in the primary sources, it seems highly unusual to me that there would be a completely different Alexander, Christina and James living as boarders in the home of James Brown.

Rona
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 06 February 22 11:41 GMT (UK)
The reason against this being our James is that on this census is Elizabeth Brown, daughter, aged 16.   This would mean that they were interchanging Elizabeth and Isabella - which is not uncommon but it is the only place it happens.
Isabella is originally a variant (the Spanish version) of the Hebrew name Elizabeth - see https://www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Isabel.html. I'd say it's more common for a family to have both an Elizabeth and and Isabel(la), showing that they were regarded as separate names, than it is for the names to be used interchangeably, showing that they were regarded as the same name. I have come across a small number of the latter usage.

Quote
Also, the place of birth is given as somewhere in Midlothian - but I can't read it (It's transcribed as Ruthin but could even be Preston when looking at the original) 
Why not post an extract showing from the original showing the place and a line or two more to see if anyone recognises it?
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Sunday 06 February 22 11:43 GMT (UK)
 [/quote]Why not post an extract showing from the original showing the place and a line or two more to see if anyone recognises it?
[/quote]

It would seem that I'm struggling to insert an image. 
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Sunday 06 February 22 11:54 GMT (UK)
Hopefully this time I have inserted the image.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Tuesday 08 February 22 00:55 GMT (UK)
Hi RonaArm and Forfarian,
Great to see Rona Arm 's posting and how she interpreted what there is.  Re the image to me it is Ruthin. Its an old capital "R".     A capital "P" doesn't have the extended leg. 

I'm struggling here for the moment as it is quite sometime since I dealt with this part of the tree. 
A whole lot more has been happening so I need to go back and look it all up. 
However I recall that I found something about Isabella. 

I just wanted you to know I have see the postings.  I am printing them so I can digest it all .
May I ask if or how RonaArm is connected to this family. 

Kind regards Essnell.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Tuesday 08 February 22 01:05 GMT (UK)
Hi Essnell,

My connection to the family is:

Christina Brown & Alexander McFadyen
Alexander McFadyen & Susan Mary Kean
Lena McFadyen & William Henry Seemann

I do agree it looks more like Ruthin - I just can't find anywhere in Scotland called Ruthin :)



Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Tuesday 08 February 22 03:02 GMT (UK)
Hi RonaArm, 

Found the place not in Scotland but it looks like it is in Wales from the names of the places.

try this link
    https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Ruthin 

This is what it says:    There is also a map.



"A borough, a market and assize town, a parish, and the head of a poor-law union, in the hundred of Ruthin, county of Denbigh; 8 miles (SE by S) from Denbigh, and 210 miles (NW by W) from London. ..... This parish and that of Llanrhud, which were originally one, are bounded on the south by the parish of Llanfair, east by the same and that of Llanarmon yn Ial, west by Llanfwrog, and north by Llanbedr. ..... The surface is beautifully diversified, the eastern part of Llanrhud embracing a portion of the Clwydian hills, and the western part of Ruthin the meanderings of the river Clwyd, with the fertile and luxuriant meadows on its banks. ..... The agricultural produce is equally rich and abundant, yielding fine crops of wheat, barley, oats, potatoes, and turnips, together with grass and hay." [A Topographical Dictionary of Wales, 1833 & 1849, Samuel Lewis]

The ancient parish of Ruthin contained the two townships of Cae'rfallen and Tre'rcastell. "

It seems to be the only place in the UK  and if that is where Elizabeth was born  there might be a UK birth record.

I shall look that up and come back later.

Essnell
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Tuesday 08 February 22 03:08 GMT (UK)
The record also says she was born in Midlothian though - it's got the ditto mark under the entry for James.  So, I think the enumerator was more likely making up the spelling for a town.  I doubt that they would mix Midlothian and a town in Wales.   As the 1841 census says that Isabella was born in Lanarkshire and the 1861 census says Airdrie Lanarkshire, I think it's possible that the whole entry is wrong.  But I'm kind of hoping James got the birth location of Christina and Isabella mixed up - wishful thinking I know!
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Tuesday 08 February 22 03:58 GMT (UK)
Hi RonaArm, 
The time on your post is 03.08 , surely you are not up as 3am..  Well it happens here too. I am in Australia and it is 10 mins to 2 o'clock pm. 

Can I ask you to wait 24hrs whilst I get all the info out.  I have a sneaking suspicion that Elizabeth Beveridge came from England but I won't confirm that till I check. 

You can also PM me - you have enough posts.   Just click on the icon under my name.

Regards Essnell.

Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 08 February 22 08:41 GMT (UK)
I discounted Ruthin in Wales from the outset because the county is clearly Mid Lothian.

I agree that the first letter is R, and it has crossed my mind to wonder if it is Ratho?
https://www.scottish-places.info/parishes/parfirst761.html

There are also Rathen in Aberdeenshire, Rathven in Banffshire and several Ruthvens.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Tuesday 08 February 22 09:28 GMT (UK)
HI Forfarian,

Thank you so much for the information re Ruthin.   Some research is needed.

I would have thought they would have been not far from Airdie. It had me stumped.  Any clues on where Ironstone was mined? please.. 

Thank you again
Regards  Essnell
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 08 February 22 09:55 GMT (UK)
There was ironstone mining in many parts of central Scotland. The ironstone and coal seams are all part of the Coal Measures.

I've attached a screenshot from the Geology of Britain Viewer showing where the Coal Measures are (pale grey). Unfortunately I had to resize it because it was far too big a file to attach here, but you can always go to the web site https://mapapps.bgs.ac.uk/geologyofbritain/home.html? and zoom in to see it at a larger and more legible size.

I've found a few men who were sometimes iron miners and sometimes coal miners.

South Wales, where Ruthin is, is also a mining area.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Tuesday 08 February 22 09:56 GMT (UK)
It appears that James is a coal miner in the earlier days.  He's a collier (coal miner) according to his marriage in 1835 the 1841 census and 1851 census.  Then he appears as an ironstone miner in 1859 and 1861.

Thanks for the map Forfarian.  I had been searching online for something similar when you posted!
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: jonn on Wednesday 09 February 22 16:07 GMT (UK)
Hello all, Just a little info on the child McFadyen, born 1860  Bothwell, Lanarkshire, this child died at 15 days old and was unnamed. her parents were Alexander McFadyen, And Christina Brown. The father Alexander registered the death he was unable to sign the certificate ie he put his mark a x. Alexander was a Iron Miner. it also states the child was buried Holytown, Church Yard. Regards Jonn.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Friday 11 February 22 05:20 GMT (UK)
Hi All.

Forfarian, I agree with you about Ratho being the best possible place for the  Ruthin entry .
  In Airdie and Edinburugh. it on close examination It almost looks like Rath... So this looks very likely. where Isabella/Elizabeth was born. 

Thankyou also for the map it is very helpful.

Jonn, Yes. they did have a baby girl who died. It is recorded on a document from Australia.

I wonder if Holytown has a record of that burial.  Perhaps Scotlands People may.

Essnell.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 11 February 22 09:57 GMT (UK)
I wonder if Holytown has a record of that burial.  Perhaps Scotlands People may.
No.

1860 is the last year when a death certificate included the place of burial.

It is possible that the burial records for Holytown might contain a record, but it won't be at Scotland's People because they don't look after burial registers. If there are surviving burial records from 1860 they should be in the care of North Lanarkshire Council https://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/directories/cemeteries
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 11 February 22 10:04 GMT (UK)
I agree with you about Ratho being the best possible place for the  Ruthin entry .
  In Airdie and Edinburugh. it on close examination It almost looks like Rath
Not sure what you mean by in Airdie and Edinburugh.

Wherever it is, it cannot be in both Airdrie in the parish of New Monkland, county of Lanark and in one of the parishes in Edinburgh in the county of Midlothian (also known as County of Edinburgh).

And Ratho is a separate parish again, not in either New Monkland or any of the Edinburgh parishes at that time. (It is now part of the City of Edinburgh council area, but that's only since the reorganisation of local government in 1975 so is irrelevant for family history purposes.)
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Tuesday 15 February 22 03:08 GMT (UK)
Hi Everyone,
Thank you all for all your replies. All are very much appreciated.

I was thinking over this family and I have a small query.

Two of the males are called James "Dewar" Brown.
The name Dewar is alien to me so I am hoping someone might know if this is a usual First Name, Given Name  or a Second Name type used as a first name,  and where this name might have come from. - such as Scotland, Ireland etc...
Thanks again, 
Essnell

Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Tuesday 15 February 22 05:00 GMT (UK)
It's a surname.  There are quite a few Dewar's in Scotland.  Most likely a female Dewar married a male Brown at some stage and it's become a family name.  For example, in Liberton near Edinburgh a Magdalen Dewar married a James Brown in 1697 and a Margaret Dewar married a Robert Brown in 1701.  (There are more, but these were just two examples reasonably close to Edmonstone where James Dewar Brown, child of James Dewar Brown & Isabel Harper had children).
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Tuesday 15 February 22 08:54 GMT (UK)
According to The Surnames of Scotland it is from Gaelic deoir or deoireach, from deoradh, a pilgrim, later an official designation which afterwards became a family name. In medaeval times the deoradh was a person who had custody of the relic of a saint.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Tuesday 15 February 22 09:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Forfarian,

That is really good to know. Just what I wanted to know. It could also be why so many had this as a second name.. Maybe.

Thank you once again
 Essnell. 
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Zeus2468 on Friday 13 May 22 10:53 BST (UK)
hi everyone, this is an absolutely fascinating thread & I'm pleased to have found it. Take me a minute to comprehend it all.

in reference to the some of the names mentioned, I am descended from Janet Hynd Bainbridge and Thomas Hetherington, they were my great great grandparents.

Interested in the McFadyen name, i have seen that name pop up in a quite a few of my DNA matches family trees.

Anyhow, just saying hi and thanks for the discussion here :)

Julie
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Saturday 14 May 22 01:40 BST (UK)
Hi Julie     Welcome to RootsChat....
This  is Essnell who started this discussion.  It is so great that you have found this .

  I am really pleased to find a connection to Janet and Thomas.  Thank you for posting.
  Do you know much about your Gt Gt Grandparents?   For me, they are part of a much larger search on behalf of several cousins.
Interesting that the McFadyen name is showing in your matches. There is connection that I will check out for you from my records later today.   Memory isn't always perfect.

For now it's great to connect.

Essnell

Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Zeus2468 on Saturday 14 May 22 03:24 BST (UK)
Hi Essnell, thanks for your reply 😊

I know pretty much the same as you,  no one can find the marriage certificate of Thomas and Janet in New York or why they came back. 

My great grandparents were Janet Hetherington, youngest daughter and John Henderson who emigrated to Australia when my grandfather was a few years old. Sponsored a lot of people for migration then my grandparents also did.i recently got in contact with a 2C1R who filled me in on a lot and remarked he has more relatives in Australia than Scotland.

I find it really interesting how interconnected the families of Henderson Hetherington and Bainbridge were.(Robert bower was mentioned earlier)

 For example Janet Hynd and Robert Bower Bainbridge had an older brother William that migrated  to Canada. Had a daughter Elizabeth *Lizzie* Bainbridge who married into the Doctor family in Kansas. She had a daughter whose name I can't remember who then had a son by the name of  Harry Goodwin. Harry was station in Australia during the war era, and would visit my grandparents as well as the Bainbridge family (from Robert Bower)....all of that stemmed from a postcard I kept that had written on the back of it 'Lizzie in the fields' and my mums memory of Harry Goodwin.  I worked out that Harry was the 2C1R to my grandfather...so I find it fascinating that rellos that were not particularly close and transcended across 3 countries were still in connection.

Yes it is great to connect and please keep me in mind 👍😊



Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Saturday 14 May 22 05:01 BST (UK)
Hi Zeus2468,

Thank you Julie, for sharing about your gt great grandparents.

Would you mind if I try again to get the USA marriage Cert?

I just made a small tree from your info -  so its fascination following the connections.  I suppose that there are connections in both Canada and Kansas,USA.

So Harry was in Australia during WW1 or WW11.  Were the Bainbridge family in the Brisbane/Ipswich area in Queensland?

The Henderson name is interesting as I have a distant Henderson in USA. but there are some known Hendersons also here in Australia -  wonder if there is any connection there as well. 

Are you still in Queensland.....I am.

Essnell


Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Zeus2468 on Saturday 14 May 22 06:40 BST (UK)
Hi Essnell, 

The Bainbridge family lived at Pullenvale which is not far from Ipswich. They were quite a known family, many descendants. I think some of the old  graves might still be out that way.  I just moved back to Ipswich after living up further north in Qld, so one weekend I may do a trip and see for myself. 

The Henderson's are everywhere, there is a reunion being planned for all the descendants of the original immigrants to Australia, the ones that were sponsored by my grandparents and great grandparent's.

And yes totally cool with the birth certificate,i am completely unfamiliar with USA and the process there.  I have spent many years looking into my  german side so now it's past time I turned my attention to the Scots lol. 

harry was in Australia during WW2,possibly after...relying on my mum's memory there as to when.
 
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Zeus2468 on Saturday 14 May 22 07:36 BST (UK)
Here's a few photos.

Harry at the Bainbridge house in Pullenvale.

Unknown Hetherington or Henderson... (Well most likely) it looks turn of the century to me and no one knows for sure.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Saturday 14 May 22 07:38 BST (UK)
Hi Zeus2468

Wow . Those images are fantastic. Might your mum remember who the other's are.  We could probably guess.  The gentleman in the kilt  ---- who was older Hetherington or Henderson.  I think probably Hetherington.
Having put the images up here, there's a possibility someone might know.  I certainly don't.  It might never happen but look what you found!!

I have a note for the marriage of Thomas and Janet - sometime between 1864 and 1866. I don't have a USA document - just hints to those dates.     Knowing the USA , it should be able to be found.   
It's odd that there seems not to be one. 

Going to look at that Scotsman again  ... be back

Essnell
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Saturday 14 May 22 07:48 BST (UK)
Hi again

The Scottish man photo;   so, to state the  obvious, it's a studio photo, but anything on the reverse that might help with knowing when or where it was taken? 

He looks to have grey hair so I think and older gentleman but if he was fair headed then ??? .

Essnell.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Sunday 15 May 22 04:01 BST (UK)
Hi Zeus2468,

I have sent you PM.  [  Personal Message ]. Check your message box.

Essnell
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Sunday 12 June 22 23:08 BST (UK)
Has anyone managed to track down James Dewar Brown (b. 1809) and his daughter Isabella Harper Brown (b. 1836) after the 1861 sighting in Whitburn, West Lothian? There's no death records that I can see in Scotland for either of these two using their full names, and because the family seemed to move around so much, there are just too many possible candidates without using the middle names.

I've got Isabella's information:

Isabella married James Moffat on 29 Jun 1863.  James and Isabella married at the Free Manse in Coatbridge after banns according to the forms of the Free Church.  Parents were listed as James Brown, Engine Keeper and Agnes Brown, deceased.  (no maiden name given)

James died 26 Dec 1899
Isabella died 14 Apr 1919.  On her death certificate, parents are listed as James Brown and Agnes Beveridge.

Children that I am aware of are:
Edward James Moffat (b. 1864) married Rachel ?
Agnes Moffat (b. 1866) married John Nisbit
Elizabeth Moffat (b. 1868) married Maurice Brady
Christina Moffat (b. 1872) married William Penman
Margaret Moffat (b. abt 1876) married Robert Beveridge  (I'd love to find out if Robert is a relative of Agnes Beveridge!)
Isabella Moffat (b. abt 1880) married Alexander Erskine

Regards
Werona





Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Monday 13 June 22 01:22 BST (UK)
HI everyone,

Nice to see another update to this thread.

What I find interesting about this latest post is the Moffatt connection.
 Also:
Whether Robert is a relative of Agnes?  It  is a distinct possibility given the inter-relationships within this family. 
Werona, do you know anything about Agnes Beveridge born 1799?   Who are her parents and does she have any siblings that could be the parents or a link to Robert Beveridge.

I haven't gone that far sideways. It might be interesting to do so.
Cheers Essnell
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Monday 13 June 22 04:46 BST (UK)
Hi Essnell,

I do not have an Agnes Beveridge born in 1799 on my tree - I have always stopped at Agnes born approximately 1816, as I have never been able to prove her parents.  How does Agnes (1799) fit in?

Today, I have been tracing Robert Beveridge (who married Margaret Moffet).

Robert's parents were William and Johan/Joan Burt (source:  marriage certificate and baptism)

William was born in 1846, son of John Beveridge & Helen Campbell (source:  marriage to Johan Burt)

John Beveridge & Helen Campbell married in Dunfermline on 22 Oct 1826.  They went on to have 10 children between 1828 and 1848.

John dies in 1849, aged 44.   Helen dies in 1870, aged 65.   

I have viewed the 1841 and 1851 census for this family.  They are always living at Wellwood Colliery, which is also their death locations.

John's marriage states that he is from Halbeath (a town which is considered a part of Dunfermline).

There are a few John Beveridge's born around that time in Dunfermline, so it's a little hard to tell which is the correct baptism.
However, if my theory is correct and there is a family relationship between Robert Beveridge (who married Margaret Moffat) and Agnes Beveridge (mother of Christina and Isabella Brown, and grandmother of Margaret Moffat) then following are possibly our Beveridge baptisms:

John:
Andrew Beveridge Coalhewer of Baldridge and Euphan Hynd his wife had a son born 12th of Nov baptized 24th named John; Witnesses David Beveridge and John Hynd Coalhewers there

Agnes:
Andrew Beveridge Coalhewer at Venturefair and Euphan Hynd his wife had a daughter born 10th March baptised 16 named Agnes; Witnesses Robert Beveridge and John Hynd Coalhewers

I'm not claiming these as mine, as I don't have enough data to back this up, however, I think, given the intermarriage that occurs, that they are worth keeping an eye on.

Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Monday 13 June 22 05:28 BST (UK)
Hi RonaArm, 

I believe so.  But  have no idea how or why....!   

As I said, I haven't gone that far sideways.  I have had a look-see this morning after getting the alert for your post.
So I got Isabella's and James's marriage 1863 and the death certs for both her and James .With the death dates and the registration dates. 

Interestingly James has no parents on his death cert and his son Edward actually signed the document.  So apparently he didn't know either.  It says he was 68 so born C 1821. 

It's way past lunch time and I'm starving hungry.
 Might look at this further tonight.
Essnell.


 
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Monday 13 June 22 05:38 BST (UK)
James and Isabella have a gravestone at Dunfermaline.  It reads: 

In loving memory of my husband James Moffat d. at Appin Crescent 26.12.1899 aged 69y native of Lockerbie. Also his widow Isabella Brown d. 14.4.1919 aged 80y. Ever to memory dear. Also their son-in-law Alexander Erskine d. 11.7.1954 aged 79y and his wife Isabella Moffat d. 11.9.1962 aged 82y

I haven't seen James' death certificate from 1899.  Only the marriage, which gives his parents as Edward Moffat and Elizabeth Wright.  I haven't looked very far into James' family.

Enjoy your lunch! 

Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Wednesday 15 June 22 02:44 BST (UK)
Hi Everyone,

First:  Can someone tell me what Extent Rolls are Please. It's something to do with "Inheritance Ownership and Possession of, land."


Werona :  Can you tell me anything about Agnes Beveridge 1816  and where she is in your tree as I don't have her.  There are a number of ladies by that name.   So I want to do some checking.

  Now, I did find the Death Certs for both James Moffat and Isabella Harper [Brown] Moffat. Also the Marriage.   
As you have said the marriage was in 1863.
 The Cert gives the parish as Whitburn, so Isabella was still in Whitburn at that point.     

Now I didn't find a later Census easily.
I took one of the children you listed  Christina Moffat and I found her  living at Whitburn, Linithgowshire,  1891 with James her father, and siblings Edward, Margaret and Isabella.

They were at 80 Albany Street and Christina was a Cotton Weaver.  aged 19

Their mother is not listed on this record.  .....I wonder where she was?

But ...  I also believe there was a sibling  Henry.  He was a Private in the Army,  1st/4th Bn. East Yorkshire Regt.  He died in France aged 32 yrs  23rd March 1918.  Identified as Son of Isabella Moffatt and the Late James Moffatt.   

Therefore he was born C 1886.  Need a Birth Cert for him.  He is listed in the Commonwealth War Graves 1914-1921 and 1939-1947.

I still have to digest all that's in the previous post about Robert Beveridge. 

Essnell.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Wednesday 15 June 22 03:41 BST (UK)
Hi Essnell,

Agnes Beveridge that I referred to was the wife of James Dewar Brown, and mother to Christina Brown (who married Alexander McFadyen) and Isabella Harper Brown (who married James Moffatt).  I have estimated her birth as about 1816, based on her age in the 1841 census (25).  This, of course, has flexibility due to the rounding down of ages/inaccuracy of ages.

In regards to the census, I have the following:

Isabella was in Muiravonside, Stirlingshire, Scotland in 1891.  She is listed as Mother in Law, and is visiting Agnes - possibly for the birth/stillbirth of a child given that the youngest is 2 years of age in the census.  (The next is born about 1892 - which I why I thought maybe a stillbirth).

In 1901, she's back in Dunfermline at 50 Appin Crescent.  Isabella uses the name Maggie for some reason. I believe this is the correct person, based on the fact that Isabella Brady, granddaughter, is with her in 1901 and 1911. Also, the memorial inscription for James says he died at Appin Crescent.

In 1911, she is at 48 Baldridgeburn in Dunfermline.  Isabella Brady, aged 17, granddaughter, is living with her here.

Thanks for the heads up about Henry.  I'll have to look into him.  He's not with the family in 1891 or 1901.

Regards
Werona

Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: RonaArm on Wednesday 15 June 22 04:02 BST (UK)
I don't think Henry, born 1886, is our family.

In the 1891 & 1901 census, there is a Henry Moffatt, son of James & Isabella Moffatt, in Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland who is a more likely candidate for this person. 

Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 16 June 22 14:40 BST (UK)
Can someone tell me what Extent Rolls are Please.
Are you sure it's Extent? Where did you come across a reference to them? Can you post an extract showing the reference?
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Saturday 18 June 22 06:12 BST (UK)
Hi ForFarian,

Had a bit of trouble with this image.   But researching these today Yes they are Extent Rolls and i have seen several since the one I originally spotted whilst searching James Dewar Brown. 

These come from the city of Edinburgh Council files.  I have seen them for 1804 -1805  and
1809 -1810.
To me they look like either rates or some sort of land ownership - transfer records.

This is the heading of one of these rolls;  Source is Edinburgh city Council via Ancestry/

The year being 1804-1805 . The 1809-1810 has a similar Heading:
     Ok:  I cannot get the image to load as it is just too large.
     
Here's the link to one of the records:  Hope it works.

www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/62333/images/62333_172028004420_0023-00229?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=CEl23&_phstart=successSource&pId=113270


Would love to know if this is correct interpretation.
Cheers Essnell
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 18 June 22 09:10 BST (UK)
Your link won't work, I'm afraid, because it came up with the Ancestry paywall. I don't and won't subscribe to Ancestry.

Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 18 June 22 10:12 BST (UK)
For those who do gave access to Ancestry but are not using .au, just remove the .au and it comes up.

They look a little like the Valuation Rolls but just seem to list  Proprietors and Tenants.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 18 June 22 10:16 BST (UK)
The description of them:

Quote
About Edinburgh, Scotland, Extent Rolls, 1580-1847

This collection includes extent rolls from Edinburgh, Scotland, dated between 1580 and 1847. Extent rolls were tax documents comprising information about rental owners' properties. Owners were not taxed for unoccupied properties. For most of this collection's time period, property addresses were not included, however, after 1820, property addresses were included more often........

The extent rolls were created by officials working for the city of Edinburgh.

Extent rolls created from the late 1500s to the early 1700s recorded how much tax the king expected from each royal burgh. These taxes were collected sporadically when the central government needed additional funds. By the 1700s, the extent rolls included information about taxes collected on an annual basis by local authorities for local projects, such as bridges and harbours. This collection begins in 1748 when the original four tax districts were each split into two sections. During the 1800s, many burghs stopped collecting extent taxes, and Parliament eliminated the extent tax in 1896.
Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Gadget on Saturday 18 June 22 10:22 BST (UK)

Essnell -there are lots more about them if you go to the Card Catalogue section and put in

Edinburgh, Scotland, Extent Rolls, 1580-1847

in the search

Title: Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
Post by: Essnell on Sunday 19 June 22 02:42 BST (UK)
Hi ....
Forfarian, That's ok. I couldn't get anything to add to my post re an image. Tried all I know and no -  it was simply too large.  I will send you the image in a PM.

Gadget: Thankyou for looking and all the explanations.  I just had not heard of these, so the one I found will tell me who was working that piece of land for that owner.  My Page calls the owners Heritors and Possessors are the tenants.
That becomes quite interesting. I shall definitely read more about them and their use. These must be different to the Sasines.
One of the fellows on the page i first found was Dewar Brown  in 1809 - 1810.  I wonder if he fits in. ???

Essnell